Comparing 2 of the greatest franchises in the NFL....

DIMEMAN

This is an interesting comparison of the Dallas Cowboys and the New England Patriots. They both came into the league in 1960 so the playing field is level.

Dallas win loss...…...502-374-6 26 years with 10 or more wins
NE win loss...………...489-386-9

Dallas Play off rec......34-27 …….8 Super Bowl Apps…..5 Super Bowl wins.
NE Play off rec...……...34-20...….10 Super Bowl Apps....5 Super Bowl wins.

Really pretty even.

Coinstartled

The Greeeeen Bayyyy Paaaackers!

keets

as bad as the Cleveland Browns have played in the past 19 years, let's look at them without that. from 1946-1995:

437-290-13 --- .590 winning percentage, better than both.
Playoff Record --- 16-17.(they were at a disadvantage here, most of their best years came with only one Game played)
Championships --- 8-5.

ADG

@Coinstartled said:
The Greeeeen Bayyyy Paaaackers!

Yes. Since 1960 - 7 championships (13 in total - more than NE + Dallas combined).

perkdog

I don’t count anything Pre super bowl, it’s like saying the Cleveland Browns historically have one of the better franchises

keets

well, things need to be seen as a whole not just in the parts where a particular franchise is successful. in totality, the Cleveland Browns are one of the better franchises.

let's be objective and understand that I am not grinding an axe or anything --- but --- the New England Patriots really have only had a respectable run for the past 22 years. prior to that they were poor to mediocre for 34 years with the exception of a few remarkable seasons. from 1960-1995 the Pat's had 14 winning seasons. during that same time period the Browns had 22 winning seasons(and a better winning percentage). so let's be square with each other.

I take a lot of grief about the Browns and the truth is that they suck, but they were a very proud franchise with a storied history and a long, long list of great players, many in the HOF. I find it ironic that their failures coincide closely with the successes of the Patriots, what I find amazing is the lack of humility by FANS of the Patriots. they are on a remarkable, perhaps unprecedented run which will end sooner than later.

how Patriots fans act then will be interesting to see. BTW, I take even more grief from Pittsburgh Steelers fans, some of them my closest friends.

perkdog

Keets, I have been a Patriots fan long before Tom Brady arrived. I remember how excited I was with Parcells, Bledsoe and a few others. I also remember Steve Grogan and Tony Eason. The Pats “Historically” have Caught up with any franchise as far as dominating for any period of time. I love the 1950’s Browns, but the pathetic state of the team is unlike any team in the history of the NFL, 1-32 I think? Also the unbelievable AJ McCarron screw up is just pathetic, the Browns deserve all the flak they get. How can any team miss on as many draft picks? No disrespect to you for being a fan but it is what it is.

DIMEMAN

@keets .....I'll give you and the Browns credit for the 50's if you give me and the Cowboys credit for the 90's. I know exactly what what you are talking about. The past does count!!!

keets

I am not arguing any of those points, simply stating the facts absent the "Expansion" franchise. and I can't tell you how ridiculous it sounds to call the Browns that term. how in the hell can a Team that has been in the NFL since 1950 be suddenly an expansion franchise??

also, we need to be square with each other. if you don't feel that the Browns years in the AAFC and 1950's NFL are legitimate, than it makes no sense to count the years the Patriots played in the old AFL. let's look at that objectively:
--- Boston --- they were pretty good overall in the AFL but in the late 60's they faltered and fell below .500 for four of the last five seasons. then when the NFL couldn't ignore the AFL they merged, and upon moving over to the NFL it took the Pats seven seasons to have a winning record.
--- Cleveland --- Cleveland dominated in the AAFC, winning all four of the Championships. just like the AFL/NFL merger, when the NFL couldn't ignore the rival conference, they expanded. the NFL figured they would teach the upstart(s) a lesson so they scheduled the AAFC Champ against the reigning NFL Champion Philadelphia Eagles. Cleveland didn't just beat them, they dominated them 35-10 and went on the win the 1950 NFL Championship. it was the first of six consecutive NFL Championship Games, of which they won three. all total, they played in the NFL Championship during eight of their first nine NFL seasons. additionally, it wasn't until the Browns 25th season(29th if you count the AAFC as we should) that they had a losing record. think what you want, but they played against some pretty good Teams during that time.

what really chaps my ass about the Browns is the way they have been bounced around and taken advantage of for whatever reasons. first they have to form/play in a rival League to gain entry into the "club" with everyone else, then they move out of their Historical Conference at the time of the AFL/NFL merger and then they get sold down the river by Modell. the old AAFC and the newer AFL really had a lot in common. both challenged the NFL but couldn't sustain a long fight due to money, but more importantly, both force the NFL to get away from its "three-yards and a cloud of dust" mentality by using innovation and more passing.

Brick

I wonder what will happen first. Browns win Super Bowl? or Patriots have first pick in the draft due to their record the previous year?

perkdog

Keets I absolutely feel that any championship won is legitimate, 1950’s or whenever, that’s not even a debatable point. All I’m saying is successful franchises since the origin of the Super Bowl does not include the Browns nor would I say historicaly they have had a more successful franchise than New England. I guess I should have clarified when I said I don’t count Pre Super Bowl

keets

the Cowboys do indeed get credit for the 90's but I stopped at 1995 because of the Browns leaving.

actually, and I don't want anyone to get ruffled because I totally mean no disrespect, but the two franchises I look at with the most reverence are the Dallas Cowboys and the Pittsburgh Steelers. being objective and just by coincidence being a Cleveland fan, the Browns were the premier Team from the old AAFC days up till the mid-1970's. coincidentally, that is when the Steelers rose to prominence. prior to that, and especially prior to 1970 when Chuck Noll started to leave his mark on the NFL, the Steelers were the League doormat.

I will also note that Chuck Noll was a native Clevelander and former Cleveland Brown player.

keets

nor would I say historical they have had a more successful franchise than New England

the record books would say otherwise.

--- Brick, my ultimate Super Bowl is that the Cleveland Browns and Detroit Lions are the last two Teams to play in a Super Bowl and the game goes into double overtime before someone wins. it would be a Classic, two of the storybook franchises from the 50's playing again for the Title.

another little unknown factoid to remind us how things never really change --- the Detroit Lions actually began around 1930 in a small southeastern/southcentral Ohio town but were relocated to Detroit by the owner because the Town wouldn't build the Team a new Stadium!!

perkdog

Putting the Cowboys ahead of the Patriots is debatable, the Steelers are acceptable

perkdog

My unbiased list of the best historical NFL franchises. ( not in order ). Patriots, Steelers, Cowboys, Packers, Bears, Browns, Raiders, 49’ers

keets

that is a list of good list of history filled Teams. I will only say that each of those Teams has an extended period(s) where they have been mediocre.

perkdog

Since the beginning of the NFL it would be impossible to not have periods of mediocrity, NE’s return is on the horizon potentially.

Coinstartled

@perkdog said:
Since the beginning of the NFL it would be impossible to not have periods of mediocrity, NE’s return is on the horizon potentially.

NFL is in the equivalent of the MLB, post PED era. Well even worse as the baseball guys at least pretended to be patriotic. Even the fans that don't care about the pregame ceremony have to be discouraged by the new touch football rules.

The gamblers though will always watch as it is no longer a contest but a roll of the dice.

NFL is wise to embrace that sector as soon it will be all that remains.

perkdog

@Coinstartled said:

@perkdog said:
Since the beginning of the NFL it would be impossible to not have periods of mediocrity, NE’s return is on the horizon potentially.

NFL is in the equivalent of the MLB, post PED era. Well even worse as the baseball guys at least pretended to be patriotic. Even the fans that don't care about the pregame ceremony have to be discouraged by the new touch football rules.

The gamblers though will always watch as it is no longer a contest but a roll of the dice.

NFL is wise to embrace that sector as soon it will be all that remains.

I prostitute the NFL for my own enjoyment. I don’t go to games, I don’t buy apparel. I also turn the channel during anthem & commercials. I don’t bet on the games so I’m not as heavily invested in the moronic stuff that goes on

bronco2078

@Coinstartled said:

@perkdog said:
Since the beginning of the NFL it would be impossible to not have periods of mediocrity, NE’s return is on the horizon potentially.

NFL is in the equivalent of the MLB, post PED era. Well even worse as the baseball guys at least pretended to be patriotic. Even the fans that don't care about the pregame ceremony have to be discouraged by the new touch football rules.

The gamblers though will always watch as it is no longer a contest but a roll of the dice.

NFL is wise to embrace that sector as soon it will be all that remains.

sports being tied to patriotism is the sign that you live in a banana republic

perkdog

Where is SteveK? I figured by now he would be chirping about his Eagles being the best ever and throwing his “case closed and it’s notveven debatable” thing out there for the cherry on top...

keets

the Patriotic BS with sports is ridiculous and someone trying to link the Anthem protests to a lack of Patriotism is fake news generated by that tool POTUS. that jerk didn't have a Patriotic bone in his body until he realized that if he ran for Public Office it would be good for his bottom line. I really can't believe that multitudes of Americans are so stupid they can't admit that to themselves. he was so Patriotic he did whatever he could to stay safe at home while the rest of us either showed up when drafted or enlisted of our own free will. now he wants to rag on others and claim he cares abos Country.

did I say he was a Tool??!!?? he's a Tool.

perkdog

SteveK?

Coinstartled

@bronco2078 said:

@Coinstartled said:

@perkdog said:
Since the beginning of the NFL it would be impossible to not have periods of mediocrity, NE’s return is on the horizon potentially.

NFL is in the equivalent of the MLB, post PED era. Well even worse as the baseball guys at least pretended to be patriotic. Even the fans that don't care about the pregame ceremony have to be discouraged by the new touch football rules.

The gamblers though will always watch as it is no longer a contest but a roll of the dice.

NFL is wise to embrace that sector as soon it will be all that remains.

sports being tied to patriotism is the sign that you live in a banana republic

Some truth to that as free agency has made pro sports a mercenary endeavor. Lakers fans are rejoicing because the Cleveland franchise has essentially relocated to their fair town. As long as you wear the right colors the world is in harmony.

bronco2078

I'm not talking about a lack of patriotism or the anthem per se. And it started way before the new president . I mean the military mumbo jumbo . The flyovers , the commercials for the various services run during games , the phony reunions of the solider and his kid . You must have seen these oh this little girl doesn't know her dad is back from Iraq they are going to see each other at the friggin coin flip for the first time in a year . Its all bullshit, tax payers shouldn't be funding flyovers for sporting events. People shouldn't be reuniting at the 50 yard line , people with limbs blown off shouldn't be used to sell tickets to football games .

In the past many of the players were in the military, in WW2 players left in the prime of their careers to serve. Other than Pat Tillman name one player that left to serve. Nobody does it, the players have almost no connection to the military , the corrupt owners are just trying to get attention to themselves with all these phony tie ins and support the troops displays. None of it is done out of respect they are just latching onto something they think their target demographic will lap up .
Remember when Tillman was killed and they made him out to be a hero for publicity and failed to mention he was killed by friendly fire and they covered it up? He personally may have been a hero , but they invented the whole story and the truth only leaked out years later . Tillman gave his life for nothing , nothing has been resolved , nothing has been won, 20 years later we are still in Afghanistan guarding the heroin and making sure it all gets sent back here to kill americans . 72,000 dead from overdoses last year , thats more than the entire Vietnam war.

All this marketing , the pretending to care about the troops is so transparent. All they are thinking is gimmie money gimmie money gimmie money. Latch on to that poor dead or crippled guy's story , name a row of seats after him . Hand out some big tax deductible cardboard check to some widow .

Has any NFL owner ever been to war? Ever served in the military or been even in remotely harms way?

DIMEMAN

@bronco2078 said:
I'm not talking about a lack of patriotism or the anthem per se. And it started way before the new president . I mean the military mumbo jumbo . The flyovers , the commercials for the various services run during games , the phony reunions of the solider and his kid . You must have seen these oh this little girl doesn't know her dad is back from Iraq they are going to see each other at the friggin coin flip for the first time in a year . Its all bullshit, tax payers shouldn't be funding flyovers for sporting events. People shouldn't be reuniting at the 50 yard line , people with limbs blown off shouldn't be used to sell tickets to football games .

In the past many of the players were in the military, in WW2 players left in the prime of their careers to serve. Other than Pat Tillman name one player that left to serve. Nobody does it, the players have almost no connection to the military , the corrupt owners are just trying to get attention to themselves with all these phony tie ins and support the troops displays. None of it is done out of respect they are just latching onto something they think their target demographic will lap up .
Remember when Tillman was killed and they made him out to be a hero for publicity and failed to mention he was killed by friendly fire and they covered it up? He personally may have been a hero , but they invented the whole story and the truth only leaked out years later . Tillman gave his life for nothing , nothing has been resolved , nothing has been won, 20 years later we are still in Afghanistan guarding the heroin and making sure it all gets sent back here to kill americans . 72,000 dead from overdoses last year , thats more than the entire Vietnam war.

All this marketing , the pretending to care about the troops is so transparent. All they are thinking is gimmie money gimmie money gimmie money. Latch on to that poor dead or crippled guy's story , name a row of seats after him . Hand out some big tax deductible cardboard check to some widow .

Has any NFL owner ever been to war? Ever served in the military or been even in remotely harms way?

Man are you off base in soooooooo many ways!!

perkdog

@DIMEMAN said:

@bronco2078 said:
I'm not talking about a lack of patriotism or the anthem per se. And it started way before the new president . I mean the military mumbo jumbo . The flyovers , the commercials for the various services run during games , the phony reunions of the solider and his kid . You must have seen these oh this little girl doesn't know her dad is back from Iraq they are going to see each other at the friggin coin flip for the first time in a year . Its all bullshit, tax payers shouldn't be funding flyovers for sporting events. People shouldn't be reuniting at the 50 yard line , people with limbs blown off shouldn't be used to sell tickets to football games .

In the past many of the players were in the military, in WW2 players left in the prime of their careers to serve. Other than Pat Tillman name one player that left to serve. Nobody does it, the players have almost no connection to the military , the corrupt owners are just trying to get attention to themselves with all these phony tie ins and support the troops displays. None of it is done out of respect they are just latching onto something they think their target demographic will lap up .
Remember when Tillman was killed and they made him out to be a hero for publicity and failed to mention he was killed by friendly fire and they covered it up? He personally may have been a hero , but they invented the whole story and the truth only leaked out years later . Tillman gave his life for nothing , nothing has been resolved , nothing has been won, 20 years later we are still in Afghanistan guarding the heroin and making sure it all gets sent back here to kill americans . 72,000 dead from overdoses last year , thats more than the entire Vietnam war.

All this marketing , the pretending to care about the troops is so transparent. All they are thinking is gimmie money gimmie money gimmie money. Latch on to that poor dead or crippled guy's story , name a row of seats after him . Hand out some big tax deductible cardboard check to some widow .

Has any NFL owner ever been to war? Ever served in the military or been even in remotely harms way?

Man are you off base in soooooooo many ways!!

After seeing Flags of our Fathers I don’t discount anything

JoeBanzai

@bronco2078 said:
I'm not talking about a lack of patriotism or the anthem per se. And it started way before the new president . I mean the military mumbo jumbo . The flyovers , the commercials for the various services run during games , the phony reunions of the solider and his kid . You must have seen these oh this little girl doesn't know her dad is back from Iraq they are going to see each other at the friggin coin flip for the first time in a year . Its all bullshit, tax payers shouldn't be funding flyovers for sporting events. People shouldn't be reuniting at the 50 yard line , people with limbs blown off shouldn't be used to sell tickets to football games .

In the past many of the players were in the military, in WW2 players left in the prime of their careers to serve. Other than Pat Tillman name one player that left to serve. Nobody does it, the players have almost no connection to the military , the corrupt owners are just trying to get attention to themselves with all these phony tie ins and support the troops displays. None of it is done out of respect they are just latching onto something they think their target demographic will lap up .
Remember when Tillman was killed and they made him out to be a hero for publicity and failed to mention he was killed by friendly fire and they covered it up? He personally may have been a hero , but they invented the whole story and the truth only leaked out years later . Tillman gave his life for nothing , nothing has been resolved , nothing has been won, 20 years later we are still in Afghanistan guarding the heroin and making sure it all gets sent back here to kill americans . 72,000 dead from overdoses last year , thats more than the entire Vietnam war.

All this marketing , the pretending to care about the troops is so transparent. All they are thinking is gimmie money gimmie money gimmie money. Latch on to that poor dead or crippled guy's story , name a row of seats after him . Hand out some big tax deductible cardboard check to some widow .

Has any NFL owner ever been to war? Ever served in the military or been even in remotely harms way?

I am thankful of the men who fought, and fight for our country, but I see what you are saying. Had I been a couple of years older I might have ended up in Vietnam. I am thankful the American people demanded an end to that conflict.

Many solders have been killed by friendly fire, they are still heroes in my eyes, covering it up was wrong though.

Some of the conflicts seem to be fought for the wrong reasons and I do not like the fact that we are sending men into foreign lands to be hurt and killed for economic (?) reasons. When they come home many get poor health care.

This country has changed, and I for one am not sure for the better. 60% of the budget for defense seems to be too high. We now seem eager to wage war, I think we might like it a bit too much.

I love my country, it's still the greatest in the world. Everyone's opinion has merit. Our Republic is supposed to be run by and FOR the people, not the richest 5-10%.

Let's get Social Security fixed (no one seems to concerned about it), our children and grandchildren just might need it.

perkdog

The United States loves war and imposing our beliefs on other countries, make no mistake about it it’s all about money, they use the excuse of “helping innocents” yet atrocities are committed daily in Africa and nobody cares. I love this country but I take the good with the bad. Sports is meant to take a breather from all the garbage we read about in the newspaper and see on the TV

Justacommeman

@perkdog said:
The United States loves war and imposing our beliefs on other countries, make no mistake about it it’s all about money, they use the excuse of “helping innocents” yet atrocities are committed daily in Africa and nobody cares. I love this country but I take the good with the bad. Sports is meant to take a breather from all the garbage we read about in the newspaper and see on the TV

Damn that was spot on

mark

keets

atrocities are committed daily in Africa and nobody cares

atrocities are committed daily in America and when somebody does care and uses their freedom of expression to show that we get this reaction from POTUS and others. I tend to think we should pay more attention to what happens here.

is that spot on??

Justacommeman

@keets said:
atrocities are committed daily in Africa and nobody cares

atrocities are committed daily in America and when somebody does care and uses their freedom of expression to show that we get this reaction from POTUS and others. I tend to think we should pay more attention to what happens here.

is that spot on??

Yes but to quote the famous SteveK everybody already knows this

m

keets

not Dimeman and a host of others, they think the NFL players are disloyal and against the Troops serving in the Military. or have a just generated some Fake News??

perkdog

Keets, silly me I thought it went without saying and it was a painfully obvious known fact about the atrocities going on daily in this country. As far as I’m concerned I think the confusion is that people believe it’s done by the government/LE to the people when its mostly done by civilian vs civilian.

DIMEMAN

@keets said:
not Dimeman and a host of others, they think the NFL players are disloyal and against the Troops serving in the Military. or have a just generated some Fake News??

It's the wrong time and place to be protesting....PERIOD! I know they are not doing it to disrespect the Flag and Country, but by doing it during the NA........THEY ARE!

keets

it's funny how we each tend to view everything through the lens of our experience. the way that I was raised, kneeling with a bowed head is a sign of reverence, not arrogance or disrespect.

I am in the habit of wearing a ball-cap most of the time during the summer. I was at a function once being held in a Baptist Church, though it was a non-denominational service. at its conclusion we stood to say the Lord's Prayer and the gentleman next to me(a total stranger) told me I needed to remove my hat. I just looked at him, left it on and the group prayed. after we were done he apparently hadn't been satisfied and he said something to me again. I toilsome Faiths actually cover their head when they pray and that he should probably mind his own business. he turned away but he wasn't happy.

America is a very diverse Nation, maybe the most diverse on the planet. believe it or not that is one of our greatest assets. I know many people struggle with that, but sometimes the best thing to do is just to tend your own garden and not worry about the weeds you think are growing in your neighbors.

DIMEMAN

@keets said:
it's funny how we each tend to view everything through the lens of our experience. the way that I was raised, kneeling with a bowed head is a sign of reverence, not arrogance or disrespect.

I am in the habit of wearing a ball-cap most of the time during the summer. I was at a function once being held in a Baptist Church, though it was a non-denominational service. at its conclusion we stood to say the Lord's Prayer and the gentleman next to me(a total stranger) told me I needed to remove my hat. I just looked at him, left it on and the group prayed. after we were done he apparently hadn't been satisfied and he said something to me again. I toilsome Faiths actually cover their head when they pray and that he should probably mind his own business. he turned away but he wasn't happy.

America is a very diverse Nation, maybe the most diverse on the planet. believe it or not that is one of our greatest assets. I know many people struggle with that, but sometimes the best thing to do is just to tend your own garden and not worry about the weeds you think are growing in your neighbors.

Do you remove your hat for the NA? If I was standing next to you and you didn't I would ask you to. I have done this many times at ball games and they always do. It's like they don't know that they are suppose to remove their hat for the NA.

keets

I do remove my hat for the National Anthem and place it over my heart. past that, I don't say anything to anyone else, that's their business. if you got on me about it, I'd tell you pound salt. why do you have such a problem with Free Speech and minding your own business concerning people you know nothing about??

when we were younger we called people like you busy-bodies and laughed at them.

DIMEMAN

@keets said:
I do remove my hat for the National Anthem and place it over my heart. past that, I don't say anything to anyone else, that's their business. if you got on me about it, I'd tell you pound salt. why do you have such a problem with Free Speech and minding your own business concerning people you know nothing about??

when we were younger we called people like you busy-bodies and laughed at them.

We will have to agree to disagree on this. And if someone told me to pound salt on this matter...……..we would be on the 10 o'clock news!

galaxy27

@DIMEMAN said:

And if someone told me to pound salt on this matter...……..we would be on the 10 o'clock news!

i would pay a substantial sum to see this

keets

Jon, I know you think this makes you a Patriot or Trump's hero, but in your imagined scenario it would probably just make you a jailbird.

Darin

Okay, how did this thread get so off base that perkdog would claim the United States loves war?
Do you guys ever consider just sticking with the subject of the thread?

thefinn

@Coinstartled said:
The Greeeeen Bayyyy Paaaackers!

TITLE-TOWN BABY!!!

thefinn

@DIMEMAN said:
This is an interesting comparison of the Dallas Cowboys and the New England Patriots. They both came into the league in 1960 so the playing field is level.

Dallas win loss...…...502-374-6 26 years with 10 or more wins
NE win loss...………...489-386-9

Dallas Play off rec......34-27 …….8 Super Bowl Apps…..5 Super Bowl wins.
NE Play off rec...……...34-20...….10 Super Bowl Apps....5 Super Bowl wins.

Really pretty even.

Let's compare number of losing seasons since 1960. One was in the AFL for 10+ years, the other in the NFL its whole history.

DIMEMAN

@keets said:
Jon, I know you think this makes you a Patriot or Trump's hero, but in your imagined scenario it would probably just make you a jailbird.

It has nothing to do with Trump........it has everything to do with how I feel about the Flag and NA.

HighGradeLegends

@Coinstartled said:
The Greeeeen Bayyyy Paaaackers!

Just ask Landry...1960s were a bitch!!!

DIMEMAN

@HighGradeLegends said:

@Coinstartled said:
The Greeeeen Bayyyy Paaaackers!

Just ask Landry...1960s were a bitch!!!

Yes, but it didn't take us long to get good. That was a tuff loss up at GB in the ice game. It's really hard to stop a QB sneak on the 1 yard line in those conditions.

perkdog

@Darin said:
Okay, how did this thread get so off base that perkdog would claim the United States loves war?
Do you guys ever consider just sticking with the subject of the thread?

Read the thread and you will see

fergie23

My older brother has done multiple tours in both Afghanistan and Iraq. I remember talking to him before he headed out to Iraq for the first time and he told me how excited he was to help bring democracy and freedom to the Iraqis. I talked to him after his second tour and he said "we should get the hell out of there". As for Afghanistan there aren't any words he used that I could repeat on this board. Both wars are a total farce and done nothing to make America safer, the sooner we get the heck out of there the better.

Robb

perkdog

No war since WW2 has made the United States “Safer” if anything it’s done the opposite, more people in the world hates us for us sticking our nose where it don’t belong.

DIMEMAN

Sad but true. We need to let the rest of the world do their thing as long as one country doesn't force it's will on another.