What is the closest US coin equivalent to this coin? (photo added)

Stork

I was looking at the thread asking about #s of foreign coins being posted and/or sold by US collectors. I'm primarily a non-US collector (hey I have a 7070 though, and a few other bits), but the other thread got me thinking. One of the draws of the non-US market is the ability to buy rarities at much more wallet friendly prices sometimes.

I have one particular coin I was going to use as an example but rather than hijack that thread with what ended up being a question I'll pose the question here.

The coin is of a type where the original mintage was of 6000. Of those, 100 were produced with a regular mintmark plus another mint applied mark/design feature, kind of like an engraver's mark or head of the mint identifier.

Of that 100, 90 were reliably reported melted. I have one of the 10 remaining, and it is of a respectable grade (none graded by our hosts here, and of the 6 grading events ATS none have graded higher).

The gold content of the coin in question is roughly halfway between that of a $2.5 and $5 gold coin, being a 20 franc equivalent.

The year is 1926. In perspective, the base metal coins minted had populations roughly of around 500,000-a million.

Ideally using either a $2.5 or $5 US coin, what would be the closest match and what kind of price range would a similarly rare US coin fetch?
(edited for the bold emphasis. I'm just curious what a US coin of that rarity would bring...obviously this coin has a much different demand vs. the US market).

OldEastside

I have a feeling someone going to post that picture of "This thread is no good without pics"

Steve

Boosibri

1875 $5, 1841 $2.5

BStrauss3

Problem is, when referencing US coins based on mintage is that you are purely on the supply side. What about demand? If you are the only one who wants one and already own it, the next one offered won't go much over melt.

Smudge

A gold US coin with a population of 10 would be very expensive. Yours sounds like the gold content would be on par with a Stella and there are more than 10 of them and they bring very high prices. Without more info it is difficult to speculate.

Gluggo

Got a picture

BillJones

U.S. mints don't place "an engraver's mark or head of the mint identifier" on their coins, other than a mint mark. There have only been a handful of instances were a branch mint engraved a mint mark on a die. The 1870-S Three Dollar Gold Piece is one of those. The Philadelphia Mint almost always put the mint marks on the dies before they were shipped to the branch mints.

The 1848 CAL. $2.50 gold coins had the "CAL." placed on them, after they were struck, to indicate that the gold in them was from the first shipment of gold received from California. There are a good number instances in the U.S. series were many of the coins have been melted before very much of the mintage was issued, but those don't have the other qualifiers included with their history.

bolivarshagnasty

Demand will dictate how valuable your coin is.

Stork

@BStrauss3 said:
Problem is, when referencing US coins based on mintage is that you are purely on the supply side. What about demand? If you are the only one who wants one and already own it, the next one offered won't go much over melt.

Exactly. It's why I could afford it as a non-US coin. No way would I be buying something like that as US. My speculation is basically 'how much would this coin go for if it had similar popularity or demand'.

I thought of it in the other thread about foreign coins. One of the great things about the darkside is you can get true rarities. I have another coin that at one point I owned 2 out of a mintage of 60.

And, in case this is being too mysterious, the coin I'm talking about is an Albanian 1926 20 FrA. It has the R for Rome mintmark. Also, there were 100 coins that were made bearing the fasces as were commonly placed on the coins. (French coins for example still bear an individual mark denoting who the mint master is/was).

The Albanian coins were designed in Italy, and in this case minted there. I totally speculate that the first 100 coins had the fasces as a matter of course as that is how the coins were made at that mint. At the same time there was a note designed with a one headed Eagle. This was rejected as 'too Italian' and 'not-Albanian' (a two-headed eagle is more Albanian) and the note was never issued/destroyed. I would suspect the 20 FrA coin dies were reworked rather quickly to remove the offending Italian fasces, with 10 pieces being preserved likely for Italian collectors--like the King of Italy. I have no proof of this, only documentation that 100 bore the fasces and 90 were melted. Just the local environment would likely have been quite offended by having an Italian design so prominently located on the coin.

Stork

@bolivarshagnasty said:
Demand will dictate how valuable your coin is.

I know exactly how much it cost in that regard Just curious what a similar US coin would go for knowing the relative demand is MUCH higher.

Pretty sure there are about 5 Albanian coin collectors in the US. Maybe 6. In Italy and Europe a few more. Plus Japan. Never underestimate Japan. In fact two of my favorite Albanian coins came from a Japanese Auction.

Stork

And, the coin in question:

I need to liberate it from my SDB and retry the photos. These suck. The fasces is also right near a prong. Dang white prongs.

jmlanzaf

@BillJones said:
U.S. mints don't place "an engraver's mark or head of the mint identifier" on their coins, other than a mint mark. There have only been a handful of instances were a branch mint engraved a mint mark on a die. The 1870-S Three Dollar Gold Piece is one of those. The Philadelphia Mint almost always put the mint marks on the dies before they were shipped to the branch mints.

The 1848 CAL. $2.50 gold coins had the "CAL." placed on them, after they were struck, to indicate that the gold in them was from the first shipment of gold received from California. There are a good number instances in the U.S. series were many of the coins have been melted before very much of the mintage was issued, but those don't have the other qualifiers included with their history.

This

It is hard to find a U.S. equivalent to a privy mark variant.

Gluggo

That is a cool one thank you

jmlanzaf

This response is dated because Tibet material went through the roof with China material. But to illustrate the demand side issue, there is a Tibetan gold coin of which only TWO were known for the entire year - no privy marks, mint marks varieties, just TWO known. 15 years ago it was a $3000 coin with only TWO known. Even now, it's probably under $100k with only TWO KNOWN.

Did I mention, there's only two?

So, you might have one of only 10, but if there are only 8 Albania gold collectors, it's barely worth melt.

Stork

@Boosibri said:
1875 $5, 1841 $2.5

Holy guacamole! But, this is exactly what I was asking. What US coins (because I don't know) of a semi-similar type would be the most similar in terms of availability.

Obviously my modest little Albanian does NOT have the market desirability of these. But in terms of being available, well, that is eye opening. And, a reason to collect foreign coins (like what was mentioned on the other thread).

Edited to add: too much attention on the privy mark/minter's mark. Really, just explaining why this is one coin of 10. So perhaps it's a VARIETY that I should have asked about rather than just a date. Even so.

Okay, there are enough Albanian collectors in the world, trust me, it wasn't melt . But it was very low 5 figures, not 6.

The Tibetan coin is a fabulous example. A one of two coin can be had at a very low price by collecting world vs. US only.

coinkat

I would suggest a slightly different analysis. I would look more towards artist merit as well as what the coin is over attempting to look at mintage figures and/or surviving population. While the number of Albanian coin collectors maybe limited, the overall look, artistic merit and historical significance can take a coin like this in a different realm... Beyond that of just coins and collecting coins.

What a terrific looking coin.

MrEureka

How about a 1922 High Relief Peace $1? About the same rarity, not a rare year or mint, and about as desirable as a denomination. A typical example is probably worth 150K or more.

MrEureka

An 1817/4 half dollar would be my second choice. A typical piece is worth 150K+.

MrEureka

I hope you paid less than 150K!

Stork

@coinkat said:
I would suggest a slightly different analysis. I would look more towards artist merit as well as what the coin is over attempting to look at mintage figures and/or surviving population. While the number of Albanian coin collectors maybe limited, the overall look, artistic merit and historical significance can take a coin like this in a different realm... Beyond that of just coins and collecting coins.

What a terrific looking coin.

Thanks! Also good thoughts and the 'look' is a large part of why I like Albanian coins (and their Italian designers).

In this case I realized that I was woefully unable to even guess which US coins had the equivalent 'numbers' and was curious.

Going by the coins listed...I can see why I don't collect US the same way. Though I have to admit that 1922 high relief was absolutely gorgeous @MrEureka! Maybe if I win the lottery (that I don't play) I can start my Peace dollar set with that one.

coinkat

Jmlanzaf... Suggesting a coin like this is barely worth melt is disturbing on several levels. You really should consider an edit.

coinkat

World coins have different factors involved in valuations. And that can be seen across the board and trying to offer explanations often raise more questions than answers.

topstuf

@bolivarshagnasty said:
Demand will dictate how valuable your coin is.

coinhack

Some people in this thread are vastly underestimating the values of world coins with their worth about melt assumptions. But world coins can also be exceptional value. For rare coins I have often seen world coins with similar mintage and survival numbers to U.S. coins sell for about one tenth of what the U.S. coin sells for. In the examples @MrEureka gave he estimates similar U.S. coins would sell for $150,000. So maybe your coin would have a market value of $15,000? Wild guess on my part.

And for those who don't know the upper end of the world coin market, there are million dollar coins. In fact the world's most expensive coin collection is not U.S. coins. Neither Dell Loy Hansen nor Simpson own it. The world's most valuable coin collection is world and some ancients. The Tyrant collection:

coinweek.com/coin-shows/long-beach-highlights/worlds-valuabl-coin-collection-tyrant-collection/

thefinn

Albania...Albania...you border on the Adriatic...
https://youtu.be/-F_tT-q8EF0

Namvet69

I am digging the rams head on his crown cap. Albania is a different kind of country. Peace Roy

Broadstruck

@Stork said:
And, the coin in question:

Design wise this is the only other matching beard I know of on anything struck in the US.

In fact they could be brothers from another mother

mustangmanbob

The surviving population, short of counting them, for something like this, could be a 20x level of difficulty. Toss in WW2, poverty at the end of WW2, Communist rule in Albania who hated basically the whole world, run ups on gold price x2,

Although not Albania, my father, US Army, was a POW held in Yugoslavia, and for the rest of his life, he would not do anything that could possibly cause him to enter Yugoslavia, even flying over it at 35K feet. It was not a pleasant part of the world, so I could only imagine the difficulty in survival of coins like that.

Stork

The communists came down eventually, it's still a very poor nation though.

Interestingly, it was one of the few European countries that was still writing visas for Jewish people leading up to WWII, and kept the borders open--one of the reasons that Albania fell from Italy's favor. In fact, the number of Jewish families multiplied from the start of the war to the end and reportedly NO Jewish people were turned in to the Italians and in fact were actively protected. All in a predominantly Muslim country.

When then King Zog made his escape from the Italians invading in WWII, he did so with his wife who had literally just given birth (1-2 days prior, I can't remember off the top of my head), driving over the mountainous roads (love Coach's song @thefinn ) in 1930s era automobiles, and while carrying all the gold in the Albanian treasury. Rumor has it that is why so many pieces are so bag marked. The pristine ones were likely sequestered in Italian collections at that point if I had to guess.

Nominally the gold was planned to fund either a resistance and/or King Zog's return. However, by the end of the war the communists took over and the gold was dispersed in support of Zog's expat household.

As for the beard @Broadstruck, that is also a truly impressive specimen. Prince Skanderbeg was a leader in the 1400s, who managed to wrest a brief era of independence from the Ottomans and remains an important cultural icon.

In any case, this has been an interesting thought process. @coinhack, you are pretty close on in value! I was just curious what US coin might be of a relatable scarcity as my knowledge of US coins is pretty scanty. Would love to have seen the Tyrant collection, but Long Beach is not do-able for me.

tommy44

It's a beautiful coin and I like it a lot. It would be the highlight of any European 20F custom set but one without the fasces would fit in just as nicely, just saying.

That being said there are lots of extremely low mintage coins out there selling for a song simply because of the low demand at the present time.