1913 V Nickel - My son thinks it's stupid that.....

hchcoin

I was telling my 18 year old son about the 1913 V nickel up for auction tonight and after telling him the bid is already at $3.8 million he said, "That's stupid, why would someone bid so early? Aren't they just driving up the price? " As I tried to answer his questions he looked at me like I was nuts. So I ask you, why wouldn't bidders wait till tonight? What's the benefit to bidding it up so early?

philographer

You can say you bid on it, but chances are you won’t end up the purchaser.

hchcoin

I get that but people are bidding on all kinds of coins in that auction. What is the real benefit from a bidders perspective to bidding early? Is it just set your bid and forget it?

OKbustchaser

@hchcoin said:
I get that but people are bidding on all kinds of coins in that auction. What is the real benefit from a bidders perspective to bidding early? Is it just set your bid and forget it?

It is for me. I'm not at the show so I can't bid in person...and I'd go nuts trying to keep up online during the auction.

Timbuk3

!!!

ricko

Some people put in their max to see if it will hold.... others place the bid because they cannot attend...Cheers, RickO

jmlanzaf

There is no advantage to bidding late.

Well known trophy coin. Everyone has their maximum. Everyone will get to bid.

"Sniping" as a strategy is only effective in a timed auction where someone has no chance to bid back. That can't happen tonight.

Frankly, sniping is also over-rated for anything with significant demand. If I put in my max bid 7 days before the end, and it's strong. You can try to snipe it, but you still have to get over my bid. If, in fact, you don't want it as much as me, the sniping will work against you unless you go nuclear because you will time out on trying to counter bid. Two people putting in nuclear snipes will end up costing you more money (even if you win) than an orderly bidding process.

grip

Bidding on a 57 vet has more appeal to me.:)

OldEastside

IDK, perhaps some will bid with no expectations of winning, however they can always forever say, "I bid on it once"

Steve

hchcoin

It's the psychology of it. Don't you think increased early bids makes people get irrational and pushes up the price. My son thinks the only people that benefit from early bidding are the auction house and the consignor.

oih82w8

Folks like myself who won't be able to bid at that particular time due to work, other scheduled or unscheduled conflicts.

hchcoin

If I was bidding on a $3.8 million dollar coin I would think I could get off work and re-arrange my schedule

tradedollarnut

Each increment is purt near a quarter of a million dollars - so if you don’t own the increment you think it’s going to sell at, it will cost you nearly half a million. I’d say that’s a powerful incentive to bid early.

CCGGG

@grip said:
Bidding on a 57 vet has more appeal to me.:)

prefer the 63 split window myself, but a 57 is cool too.

hchcoin

@jmlanzaf said:
There is no advantage to bidding late.

Well known trophy coin. Everyone has their maximum. Everyone will get to bid.

"Sniping" as a strategy is only effective in a timed auction where someone has no chance to bid back. That can't happen tonight.

Frankly, sniping is also over-rated for anything with significant demand. If I put in my max bid 7 days before the end, and it's strong. You can try to snipe it, but you still have to get over my bid. If, in fact, you don't want it as much as me, the sniping will work against you unless you go nuclear because you will time out on trying to counter bid. Two people putting in nuclear snipes will end up costing you more money (even if you win) than an orderly bidding process.

If you say you can't snipe an ultra-rarity, what about the 1804 Dexter/Pogue dollar that flew below the radar and then was sold 48 hours later? Did it not benefit @tradedollarnut to not have the price bid up early? Heck, he didn't even bid so it proves the point even more. I read an article that quoted Kevin Lipton, John Albanese and Bruce Morelan were all surprised a rarity like this could go so "cheap."

Seems to me, regardless of the coin or the price, early bidding can push up prices and create bidding frenzy.

Jimnight

I would answer by simply saying ... It's bidding strategy.

oih82w8

@hchcoin said:
If I was bidding on a $3.8 million dollar coin I would think I could get off work and re-arrange my schedule

I was thinking a little more broadly and not necessarily on this particular coin, but on-line auctions in general. But, yeah, if I could afford to drop seven figures on a coin I would be able to "step away" from work on this coin...more than likely be present for the bidding.

Currin

@CCGGG said:

@grip said:
Bidding on a 57 vet has more appeal to me.:)

prefer the 63 split window myself, but a 57 is cool too.

I agree, even though the 57 is my birth year, I would prefer a bid for thr 63 SW.

hchcoin

@Jimnight said:
I would answer by simply saying ... It's bidding strategy.

That's what I am trying to understand, what is the strategy? A few posters have given great reasons but I am wondering if there is more to it.

hchcoin

@tradedollarnut said:
Each increment is purt near a quarter of a million dollars - so if you don’t own the increment you think it’s going to sell at, it will cost you nearly half a million. I’d say that’s a powerful incentive to bid early.

This makes sense.

jmlanzaf

@hchcoin said:

@jmlanzaf said:
There is no advantage to bidding late.

Well known trophy coin. Everyone has their maximum. Everyone will get to bid.

"Sniping" as a strategy is only effective in a timed auction where someone has no chance to bid back. That can't happen tonight.

Frankly, sniping is also over-rated for anything with significant demand. If I put in my max bid 7 days before the end, and it's strong. You can try to snipe it, but you still have to get over my bid. If, in fact, you don't want it as much as me, the sniping will work against you unless you go nuclear because you will time out on trying to counter bid. Two people putting in nuclear snipes will end up costing you more money (even if you win) than an orderly bidding process.

If you say you can't snipe an ultra-rarity, what about the 1804 Dexter/Pogue dollar that flew below the radar and then was sold 48 hours later? Did it not benefit @tradedollarnut to not have the price bid up early? Heck, he didn't even bid so it proves the point even more. I read an article that quoted Kevin Lipton, John Albanese and Bruce Morelan were all surprised a rarity like this could go so "cheap."

Seems to me, regardless of the coin or the price, early bidding can push up prices and create bidding frenzy.

That's not a "snipe". The sniping is a time issue. Lack of appreciation for a coin is not the same thing. TDN did NOT snipe that coin, he was simply the only one who recognized it's value. And he would have ended up owning it no matter WHEN the bid was placed.

You can't snipe a live auction with no time limit. Sniping is based on the auction expiring. A live auction has no clock. The lot will stay open as long as bids continue to be entered.

jmlanzaf

@hchcoin said:
It's the psychology of it. Don't you think increased early bids makes people get irrational and pushes up the price. My son thinks the only people that benefit from early bidding are the auction house and the consignor.

Your son is wrong. For a major auction at a major auction house all the players are there and they all have their number. It is simply an urban legend that orderly pre-bidding drives prices higher. The whole psychology of auctions driving prices higher actually works better IN THE AUCTION ROOM. There you are forced to decide in seconds whether to go up another increment or two. The desire to WIN can drive you to bid well above what you thought was your maximum.

Insider2

Placing a bid early lets folks know that there is at least one person who wants the coin. If each individual bidder is ID'ed in some way, that is more reason.

@tradedollarnut said:
Each increment is purt near a quarter of a million dollars - so if you don’t own the increment you think it’s going to sell at, it will cost you nearly half a million. I’d say that’s a powerful incentive to bid early.

I cannot understand such a large jump to the next bid. While it speeds up the auction process, IMO, near the end of the bidding the increment should be lowered to 25K In order to squeeze out a little more $$$.

Paradisefound

I am a small fish and I bid early sometime to see the ceiling then nuke it if it's still in my range

stevek

@hchcoin said:
I was telling my 18 year old son about the 1913 V nickel up for auction tonight and after telling him the bid is already at $3.8 million he said, "That's stupid, why would someone bid so early? Aren't they just driving up the price? " As I tried to answer his questions he looked at me like I was nuts. So I ask you, why wouldn't bidders wait till tonight? What's the benefit to bidding it up so early?

Tell your son that his premise is absolutely right.

jmlanzaf

@Insider2 said:
Placing a bid early lets folks know that there is at least one person who wants the coin. If each individual bidder is ID'ed in some way, that is more reason.

@tradedollarnut said:
Each increment is purt near a quarter of a million dollars - so if you don’t own the increment you think it’s going to sell at, it will cost you nearly half a million. I’d say that’s a powerful incentive to bid early.

I cannot understand such a large jump to the next bid. While it speeds up the auction process, IMO, near the end of the bidding the increment should be lowered to 25K In order to squeeze out a little more $$$.

STRONGLY disagree. While the auction company can squeeze out a few nickels, it is grossly unfair to a bidder to whore him out for less than 1%. That is why bid increments increase as price increases.

jmlanzaf

@stevek said:

@hchcoin said:
I was telling my 18 year old son about the 1913 V nickel up for auction tonight and after telling him the bid is already at $3.8 million he said, "That's stupid, why would someone bid so early? Aren't they just driving up the price? " As I tried to answer his questions he looked at me like I was nuts. So I ask you, why wouldn't bidders wait till tonight? What's the benefit to bidding it up so early?

Tell your son that his premise is absolutely right.

disagree

Insider2

@jmlanzaf said:

@Insider2 said:
Placing a bid early lets folks know that there is at least one person who wants the coin. If each individual bidder is ID'ed in some way, that is more reason.

@tradedollarnut said:
Each increment is purt near a quarter of a million dollars - so if you don’t own the increment you think it’s going to sell at, it will cost you nearly half a million. I’d say that’s a powerful incentive to bid early.

I cannot understand such a large jump to the next bid. While it speeds up the auction process, IMO, near the end of the bidding the increment should be lowered to 25K In order to squeeze out a little more $$$.

STRONGLY disagree. While the auction company can squeeze out a few nickels, it is grosslyunfair to a bidder to whore him out for less than 1%. That is why bid increments increase as price increases.

LOL, talk about whores...I guess it has gone on long enough that all you think it is perfectly OK for auction companies TO CHARGE A BUYERS FEE!

I think you'll agree with me that many consider life is not fair. So, as far as I'm concerned, the ONLY person the auction company should squeeze the last "penny" out of IS the bidder. That way the consigner and the auction company gets more money! If you want the coin, bid on it and pay the charges even if it is another .05%! .

stevek

@jmlanzaf said:

@stevek said:

@hchcoin said:
I was telling my 18 year old son about the 1913 V nickel up for auction tonight and after telling him the bid is already at $3.8 million he said, "That's stupid, why would someone bid so early? Aren't they just driving up the price? " As I tried to answer his questions he looked at me like I was nuts. So I ask you, why wouldn't bidders wait till tonight? What's the benefit to bidding it up so early?

Tell your son that his premise is absolutely right.

disagree

I never put in an early bid on auctions, and I do mean never. I figure why show your hand?

I'll put in a feeler bid with maybe three minutes to go a little above the current bid or sometimes if I simply know it's going to go at least say $100 higher, i'll put in a bid say $110 higher, hopefully to discourage the competition a little bit. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't.

In any event, I've never had bidder's remorse on anything I've ever won at auction.

jmlanzaf

disagree

I never put in an early bid on auctions, and I do mean never. I figure why show your hand?

I'll put in a feeler bid with maybe three minutes to go a little above the current bid or sometimes if I simply know it's going to go at least say $100 higher, i'll put in a bid say $110 higher, hopefully to discourage the competition a little bit. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't.

In any event, I've never had bidder's remorse on anything I've ever won at auction.

There is no "3 minutes to go" in a live auction. That's the point. They will keep bidding for as long as bids come in. This encourages people to compete and that's where the bidding up occurs. You are (I believe) thinking more in terms of timed auctions like eBay.

Kkathyl

Perhaps the early bid was just to remind yourself so you don't forget. I do that with E bay.

Kkathyl

this is the one I want and if anyone tries to snag it from me we will have words and strong ones

waxman2745

The only time I tried bidding early on an auction (2 hours before auction end), my ceiling bid got destroyed by 1 other bidder who ran up the price by $10 increments until I was outbid. I bid again about a minute before the auction end, and the other bidder was nowhere in site for the last minute. I ended up winning but paying 3x what the item was worth. I sometimes wonder what would have happened had I waited until 1 minute left to place my bid.

JBK

@Kkathyl said:
Perhaps the early bid was just to remind yourself so you don't forget. I do that with E bay.

Good point. I would not want to forget that I wanted to bid on a 1913 Liberty V nickel!

But I do use this tactic on eBay....

JBK

@Paradisefound said:
I am a small fish and I bid early sometime to see the ceiling

To try to uncover the ceiling - another good tactic....

Sometimes I use early bids to help create a floor for the item.

Right now on eBay there is a seller who sells some similar items one at a time, one listing each week. I already have my items that I won in earlier auctions, but I still bid on subsequent auctions for the same items. I don't bid to win (I bid $29.99 on an item that normally sells in the $30s,for example), but I bid to help ensure that the ending price is not too low. I do this partly out of ego so I do not see the item go for significantly less than I paid, but also to help keep the market at a certain level to protect my own investment. On the rare occasion that I end up winning, I am getting a good deal.

I doubt that this particular approach is happening in the 1913 Liberty nickel auction, but who knows. In any case, bidding a few million on this coin is a consequence-free exercise, since they won't be the high bidder.

hchcoin

@JBK said:

@Paradisefound said:
I am a small fish and I bid early sometime to see the ceiling

To try to uncover uncover the ceiling - another good tactic....

Sometimes I use early bids to help create a floor for the item.

Right now on eBay there is a seller who sells some similar items one at a time, one listing each week. I already have my items that I won in earlier auctions, but I still bid on subsequent auctions for the same items. I don't bid to win (I bid $29.99 on an item that normally sells in the $30s,for example), but I bid to help ensure that the ending price is not too low. I do this partly out of ego so I do not see the item go for significantly less than I paid, but also to help keep the market at a certain level to protect my own investment. On the rare occasion that I end up winning, I am getting a good deal.

I doubt that this particular approach is happening in the 1913 Liberty nickel auction, but who knows. In any case, bidding a few million on this coin is a consequence-free exercise, since they won't be the high bidder.

Very interesting strategy.

hchcoin

@jmlanzaf said:

@hchcoin said:

@jmlanzaf said:
There is no advantage to bidding late.

Well known trophy coin. Everyone has their maximum. Everyone will get to bid.

"Sniping" as a strategy is only effective in a timed auction where someone has no chance to bid back. That can't happen tonight.

Frankly, sniping is also over-rated for anything with significant demand. If I put in my max bid 7 days before the end, and it's strong. You can try to snipe it, but you still have to get over my bid. If, in fact, you don't want it as much as me, the sniping will work against you unless you go nuclear because you will time out on trying to counter bid. Two people putting in nuclear snipes will end up costing you more money (even if you win) than an orderly bidding process.

If you say you can't snipe an ultra-rarity, what about the 1804 Dexter/Pogue dollar that flew below the radar and then was sold 48 hours later? Did it not benefit @tradedollarnut to not have the price bid up early? Heck, he didn't even bid so it proves the point even more. I read an article that quoted Kevin Lipton, John Albanese and Bruce Morelan were all surprised a rarity like this could go so "cheap."

Seems to me, regardless of the coin or the price, early bidding can push up prices and create bidding frenzy.

That's not a "snipe". The sniping is a time issue. Lack of appreciation for a coin is not the same thing. TDN did NOT snipe that coin, he was simply the only one who recognized it's value. And he would have ended up owning it no matter WHEN the bid was placed.

You can't snipe a live auction with no time limit. Sniping is based on the auction expiring. A live auction has no clock. The lot will stay open as long as bids continue to be entered.

I am confused. He wasn't the winning bidder so how could he end up owning it no matter when the bid was placed?

By people like him not bidding, it went "cheap" and was bought at a lower price than everyone seemed to expect. Is that not a good thing for the buyers?

Swampboy

I learned one thing from this thread.
It evidently makes you look smart if you write words like whores in bold type.

tradedollarnut

The ridiculous reserve on the first 1804$1 at Pogue made every serious bidder ignore the second 1804$1. It’s a fact that JA was as shocked as anyone how cheaply he was able to buy the coin. Even after paying a substantial markup, I was extremely happy with the level at which I purchased the coin...a bargain which will be substantiated in a few hours.

JBK

@Swampboy said:
I learned one thing from this thread.
It evidently makes you look smart if you write words like whores in bold type.

Why stop at bold when you can also use italics:

whores

I must be a genius!

(P.S. - no offence meant to any whores on the forum).

2ndCharter

I bid again about a minute before the auction end

This thread is about a live auction - how do you bid a minute before the end of a live auction?

jmlanzaf

@hchcoin said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@hchcoin said:

@jmlanzaf said:
There is no advantage to bidding late.

Well known trophy coin. Everyone has their maximum. Everyone will get to bid.

Did it not benefit @tradedollarnut to not have the price bid up early? Heck, he didn't even bid so it proves the point even more. I read an article that quoted Kevin Lipton, John Albanese and Bruce Morelan were all surprised a rarity like this could go so "cheap."

Sorry, I didn't understand what you were saying.

But, see below. You are ASSUMING the price stayed low because of missing proxy bids not because of simply missing bidders.

jmlanzaf

@hchcoin said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@hchcoin said:

@jmlanzaf said:
There is no advantage to bidding late.

Well known trophy coin. Everyone has their maximum. Everyone will get to bid.

"Sniping" as a strategy is only effective in a timed auction where someone has no chance to bid back. That can't happen tonight.

By people like him not bidding, it went "cheap" and was bought at a lower price than everyone seemed to expect. Is that not a good thing for the buyers?

You are assuming facts not in evidence. You are assuming that the lack of prior proxy bids kept the ceiling on the coin. There is no way to know whether the lack of prior proxy bids had any effect on the final price. I would argue it would not for a coin like that. EVERYONE knows when the auction is and all the players who want to place bids will do so either in person, by phone, by proxy, etc.

jmlanzaf

@2ndCharter said:
I bid again about a minute before the auction end

This thread is about a live auction - how do you bid a minute before the end of a live auction?

Too many eBay buyers on this thread and not enough live auction bidders.

It is impossible to snipe a live auction. Heck, you don't even know when a lot will come up much less how long it will stay up. On the 1913 nickel, I guarantee there will NOT be a quick hammer.

jmlanzaf

@JBK said:

@Swampboy said:
I learned one thing from this thread.
It evidently makes you look smart if you write words like whores in bold type.

Why stop at bold when you can also use italics:

whores

I must be a genius!

(P.S. - no offence meant to any whores on the forum).

Does it make you look smart or just ornery?

jmlanzaf

@waxman2745 said:
The only time I tried bidding early on an auction (2 hours before auction end), my ceiling bid got destroyed by 1 other bidder who ran up the price by $10 increments until I was outbid. I bid again about a minute before the auction end, and the other bidder was nowhere in site for the last minute. I ended up winning but paying 3x what the item was worth. I sometimes wonder what would have happened had I waited until 1 minute left to place my bid.

This is the point about NOT bidding early. People don't get run up days in advance, they get run up at the end because they just HAVE to win. It is the psychology of the auction.

You might have simply not won the item and wondered if $10 more would have won it. I've also seen people throw in nuclear bids at the last minute just to find out the other would-be sniper did the same thing and they still end up with a ridiculous hammer price.

IMHO, you have your max, you place the bid at your max. You don't look back. Heritage proxy bidding even allows you to designate 1 or 2 or 3 increment bids above your max if you want to try and get back in if outbid. This is tremendously helpful to the bidder and not Heritage who really wants you to sit there at the end trying desparately to win.

BillJones

I've won lots when I bid early and my max was on the book. One time my bid on the book tied that high bid from the floor, and I got the lot because the floor bidder was a dealer who representing a client. My book bid was his maximum.

When you get to very high priced coins, like the 1913 Liberty Nickel, the bidding increments are very high. If you end up on the wrong side of the back and forth, you can end up paying thosands of dollars more. There are reasons to put a bid "on the book." The only down side comes if the auction house is using that information unethically.

When you bid live, you run the risk of going nuts and paying way too much. I've done that a couple of times and don't wish to repeat the experience.

BillJones

This is the point about NOT bidding early. People don't get run up days in advance, they get run up at the end because they just HAVE to win. It is the psychology of the auction.

Unless the pre-auction bids a way too high, and don't refect the true value of the item, what happens before the auction does not mean anything. The cruch comes when the live bidding starts.

savitale

I almost always set my max bid early. I have other obligations that usually prevent me from bidding live during the auction. So it’s either bid early or don’t bid.

Insider2

@Swampboy said:
I learned one thing from this thread.
It evidently makes you look smart if you write words like whores in bold type.

LOL. Please consider this another lesson: @SWAMPBOY.

While I don't feel any smarter, it made me feel really great! Thanks.

stevek

@jmlanzaf said:

disagree

I never put in an early bid on auctions, and I do mean never. I figure why show your hand?

I'll put in a feeler bid with maybe three minutes to go a little above the current bid or sometimes if I simply know it's going to go at least say $100 higher, i'll put in a bid say $110 higher, hopefully to discourage the competition a little bit. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't.

In any event, I've never had bidder's remorse on anything I've ever won at auction.

There is no "3 minutes to go" in a live auction. That's the point. They will keep bidding for as long as bids come in. This encourages people to compete and that's where the bidding up occurs. You are (I believe) thinking more in terms of timed auctions like eBay.

OT here, but I watched on the internet that 1952 Mantle PSA 9 auction where the card finished at 2.8 million plus the buyer's premium, and the auction house even allowed a period after the card was sold, for the high bidder to flip the card to someone else as part of the auction.

IE: milking every last cent out of it to increase the auction house profits, which is fine if ya can do it. LOL