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Does TDN, or anyone, have the 1804 $ photos that this 1941 B. Max Mehl order form offered at $2?

WinLoseWinWinLoseWin Posts: 1,644 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum

Does TDN, or anyone, have the 1804 $ photos that this 1941 B. Max Mehl order form offered at $2?

This order form was in my copy of the June 3rd, 1941 B. Max Mehl sale of the W. F. Dunham Collection. This is the same coin @tradedollarnut currently owns. I don't recall seeing a set of photos that were tied to this offer. Maybe they are well known but I just was unaware of the connection or maybe they are hard to find.

Two dollars could buy some decent coins in 1941. I can't imagine many photo sets were sold. Looking at the prices realized a Proof 1882 25c brought $2; each of the Proof Indian Cents from 1886 through 1908 brought under $2 each. There are many other similar examples.

Here is a link to the catalog on the Newman Numismatic Portal:

https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/auctionlots?AucCoId=5&AuctionId=512288
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There is also a tolerable picture already part of the catalog. Wonder who would spent that much for 8 x 10 photos. It doesn't sound like they are even in color.

https://archive.org/stream/wfdunhamnumismat1941mehl#page/60/mode/2up

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"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin

Comments

  • CoinstartledCoinstartled Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Those would be interesting to see.

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,166 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice! I’d love to have these

    Early Dollar Set
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Based on the date it had to be the James Dexter / William Forester Dunham example which Dunham not Dexter counter stamped with a D in the second reverse cloud from the right.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,361 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018 5:21AM

    I haven’t seen the stand alone photo but the rare deluxe version of the catalog (now $1000+) includes the photo, as well as (IIRC) one of the 1822 half eagle and maybe one other coin. I’ve seen a few of these.

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,361 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 6, 2018 5:31AM

    This one recently unsold and might be available cheap. TDN???

    https://bid.numislit.com/lots/view/1-132CT1/a-deluxe-photographically-illustrated-dunham-catalogue

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Those would certainly be collector grade photographs.... Unlikely that many have survived...Often, those portions of 'estates' are treated as 'collateral junk' and thrown away. Sad, but I have seen this at many estate sales. Cheers, RickO

  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MrEureka said:
    I haven’t seen the stand alone photo but the rare deluxe version of the catalog (now $1000+) includes the photo, as well as (IIRC) one of the 1822 half eagle and maybe one other coin. I’ve seen a few of these.

    Thanks Andy as I wasn't thinking of just grabbing the sale catalog... Here's a quick iPhone photo of the plate in the leatherette hardbound 1941 Dunham sale which must have been what Mehl sold for $2.00.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looking at the Stacks/Bowers sale image and Mehl's it looks it it was lightened since the 1941 sale.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • cardinalcardinal Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:
    Thanks, Andy. Email sent

    I doubt the coin has been lightened. No way the reverse toning has been messed with at any point in time

    Agreed! Maybe, photographic technologies might have advanced a bit since 1941???? ;)

  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sure there's been improvements in photography... However the outline of patina even in a vintage black & white plate can still be matched. On the obverse you can see it's well defined behind Miss Liberty, but the patina next to the 4 in the date and in the fields in front of her face is gone. That being said I feel all the 1804 $1's have been ever so lightly enhanced at some point. Which shouldn't come as much of a shock as only in the neighborhood of make believe are all 150+ year old coin surfaces truly original.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • ashelandasheland Posts: 23,556 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That is a pretty coin no doubt!

    My YouTube Channel

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  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,361 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @afford said:
    The "D" was added.

    Are you trying to trying to make TDN cry, or do you actually think that someone on this forum might have thought that the coin was struck in Denver or Dahlonega?

    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @afford said:
    The "D" was added.

    Archaic LoJack Stolen Coin Recovery System ;)

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,166 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I personally find the D to be far from a negative. Neutral at worse, positive at best

    Now I just gotta add the T and the N

    Early Dollar Set
  • RonyahskiRonyahski Posts: 3,118 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Broadstruck said:
    Sure there's been improvements in photography... However the outline of patina even in a vintage black & white plate can still be matched. On the obverse you can see it's well defined behind Miss Liberty, but the patina next to the 4 in the date and in the fields in front of her face is gone. That being said I feel all the 1804 $1's have been ever so lightly enhanced at some point. Which shouldn't come as much of a shock as only in the neighborhood of make believe are all 150+ year old coin surfaces truly original.

    There is no way to conclude, based on these photos, that this coin has been lightened. No way, particularly to claim that one can see a change in patina.

    Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
  • HoledandCreativeHoledandCreative Posts: 2,820 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The best coin I have seen with pmd.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,543 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Getting back to the OP, I asked 1804 dollar guru Ken Bressett if he were familiar with the Mehl photographs, and he is not.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2018 2:48AM

    @HoledandCreative said:
    The best coin I have seen with pmd.

    You can't see the D with the naked eye at first as you need to use a loupe and let it find you. Dunham counter stamped all his coins and tokens of every value level. All of the Dunham coins and tokens submitted to any TPGS have straight graded. None show any punch impression beyond the D itself. This was a very well executed plan of action on his part as it must have been quite a chore and expense once he found a machinist who could make it. If there was ever a figure in the past who had too much time on his hands and should have had a Snickers instead it was Dunham.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • Desert MoonDesert Moon Posts: 5,956 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't see the counterstamp (unless you mean in the field under the chin but it is rough and incomplete if that is it) - even in the blow up images, someone mind pointing to where it is?

    Best, SH

    My online coin store - https://desertmoonnm.com/
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @spacehayduke said:
    I don't see the counterstamp (unless you mean in the field under the chin but it is rough and incomplete if that is it) - even in the blow up images, someone mind pointing to where it is?

    Best, SH

    Counter stamped with a very tiny capital letter D in the second reverse cloud from the right.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • AngryTurtleAngryTurtle Posts: 1,577 ✭✭✭

    @spacehayduke said:
    I don't see the counterstamp (unless you mean in the field under the chin but it is rough and incomplete if that is it) - even in the blow up images, someone mind pointing to where it is?

    Best, SH

    Even knowing it was in the clouds, and having heard the story many times, I had to get the giant trueviews from TDNs post and look carefully until I found it.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,596 ✭✭✭✭✭

    From a distance, it looks like a blob of toning.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @AngryTurtle said:
    Even knowing it was in the clouds, and having heard the story many times, I had to get the giant trueviews from TDNs post and look carefully until I found it.

    Yeah you almost need to pay for a guided tour to find it...

    Speaking of which @spacehayduke feel free to PayPal me for pointing you in the right direction ;):p

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • cardinalcardinal Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭

    When you finally see the "D," you can't miss it.

    It's basically the same tiny size as the "1803 G$10 BD-5 Extra Star." Once you seen that star, it's easy to find:

  • WinLoseWinWinLoseWin Posts: 1,644 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Broadstruck said:

    @MrEureka said:
    I haven’t seen the stand alone photo but the rare deluxe version of the catalog (now $1000+) includes the photo, as well as (IIRC) one of the 1822 half eagle and maybe one other coin. I’ve seen a few of these.

    Thanks Andy as I wasn't thinking of just grabbing the sale catalog... Here's a quick iPhone photo of the plate in the leatherette hardbound 1941 Dunham sale which must have been what Mehl sold for $2.00.

    .
    .
    That picture is in the regular catalog also. Here is a link to it below. It is black and white and printed on a silver colored paper. It doesn't match what Mehl was offering for $2 as the obverse and reverse were each on a separate 8 x 10 photo. I also wonder if the note "not half-tone printings" could mean that 8x10's were actually color prints.

    https://archive.org/stream/wfdunhamnumismat1941mehl#page/60/mode/2up

    There is a similar size black and white picture of the 1822 Half Eagle on a gold colored page in the regular catalog .

    https://archive.org/stream/wfdunhamnumismat1941mehl#page/138/mode/2up

    "To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin

  • cardinalcardinal Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2018 3:26PM

    Here's the equally rare prospectus for the Dunham sale, at 5-3/4' x 7-3/4" with eight printed pages inside, and acid-free tissues between the covers and contents. Photos of Max Mehl and Mr. Dunham appear within.

    The back cover shows the 1822 G$5, printed in gold.

    I believe I have the original glass negative of the 1804 Dollar.

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,166 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice!!!!

    Early Dollar Set
  • renman95renman95 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:
    I personally find the D to be far from a negative. Neutral at worse, positive at best

    Now I just gotta add the T and the N

    Very courteous of Dunham to leave you smoe cloud space....left and right.

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