Centsles and ICG coins
logger7
Posts: 8,570 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have been following some of the bigger money coins Centsles has been auctioning on ebay. It's very hard to compare apples with apples on his listings, as ICG, though it doesn't have the huge company and backing of NGC and PCGS does have graders with lots of experience. Any thoughts on some of the bigger money coins he has been selling in ICG holders? Is there a good strategy for bidding on coins with poor images, like a grade or two back? https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=0&LH_Sold=1&_mPrRngCbx=1&_udlo=500&_udhi=1000000&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=15&_stpos=06840&_sargn=-1&saslc=1&_salic=1&_fss=1&_fsradio=&LH_SpecificSeller=1&_saslop=1&_sasl=centsles&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=200&LH_Complete=1&_fosrp=1
Comments
@logger7 askes: "Is there a good strategy for bidding on coins with poor images, like a grade or two back?"
There sure is: Don't bid on coins you cannot see!
I'll pass !!!
A 1799 $10 gold in a second rate or no holder? No thanks. Some PCGS but lots of high dollar coins that belong in first rate holders and not in them. Be careful or better yet follow insider's advice.
I think you spend too much time worrying about Centsles...Just saying....
Some folks send expensive coins to the second tier grading services to get EXTREMELY FAST service EXTREMELY CHEAP. They know the coins are not "worth as much" as they would be in a PCGS or NGC holder.
I cannot explain it myself. A big dealer should not be concerned with the cheap price. The ONLY thing I can understand is a big dealer can probably buy, grade, and then sell at least three lots of coins in the time it takes to get the first lot graded at one of the top two services I mentioned above. The turnover must be worth it. I don't know.
It's crazy to me because once you submit a few lots to PCGS for example, as long as you keep submitting, you'll get a steady stream returned once you go through the initial waiting period for the first order to be completed.
And then not to provide a good camera image....
I don't care for the 108 negative feed back count over the last 12 months.
To be fair, about 90% of those 108 negatives are from the same buyer.
The listings always have pictures of horrible image quality.
I assume that is intentional.
I don't know anything about the owner, but I recognized the eBay seller's name and checked my records and I have purchased several Morgans from him that I was also very happy with... BUT - they were ALL in ICG holders. I found that the images of the holdered coins were usually pretty good, but that there was almost always an issue with the raw coin photos where there was something just off that made them difficult to evaluate...the focus was just a bit off, the lighting "wierd", the coin was tilted, only one image of obverse and reverse, no high mag images. I figured that as a seller of so many coins, this couldn't be accidental or coincidental. Just my experience.
Centsles sells a lot of ICG graded coins. I personally love ICG holdered coins as I believe that the grading in most cases is consistent and on par with the two top tier TPGS, but the Morgans at least, sell for values one to two grades lower than what is listed in the PCGS price guide and what they would sell for in top tier plastic. Just wanting a nice collection of Morgans, and not being concerned that the plastic doesn't say "PCGS", if I win a coin for the price I'm willing to pay, I feel like it's a good value - it doesn't matter that I'm unsure about the seller.
I bought a couple centsles ICG MS67 Washington quarters, cracked out and came back PCGS MS65.
I would never buy a valuable coin like that, as an UNC details could set me back 50-70%.
If you make your objective the price and not the coin, you will have problems. I have some ICG coins... and they are good for the grade...However, I did not buy them from pictures. If I were selling them, I would likely cross to PCGS first. I have not purchased from Centsles....and would not if the pictures were poor. Cheers, RickO
Centsles originally dealt mainly in his NNC “graded” and slabbed coins; eBay started enforcing the 4 approved TPG rule and he either had to hide the numerical grade (ref image) or have them reslabbed. Not sure how an NNC slab with cross-over…
Not MS. Keep as is. One day, the holder may be rare.
How hard would it be for Centsles to have professional images? Surely ebay should require this with one of their "top" numismatic sellers. What is his method for imaging these slabs? Set resolution to rock bottom? Ebay should have a board of experts making more requirements on what is sold there both raw and certified.
Can anyone explain this?
The Morgan sold on GC as a PCGS MS 65 for $337.50. Centsles got the upgrade at ICG to MS 66 and resold it for $200?
"In proving foresight may be vain:
The best laid schemes o' mice an' men
Gang aft a-gley"
Easy, the answer is all over the Internet forums: Using the above coin as an example, it is worth more in a PCGS slab. If it would have been put into an NGC slab it would have also sold for more than in the ICG slab BUT LESS than the PCGS holder.
It appears the seller lost money on this coin. Next question?
PS Looks like someone got a really good deal. Good deals as this are all over the place in second tier TPGS slabs. Buy the coin, not the holder.
It shows there is not as much shill bidding as most people think. Not every sell makes money, especially with no reserve auctions.
It was a buy it now for $250 with a best offer of $200 accepted. So no bidding was involved.
I knew that it was worth more in the PCGS holder. What I was questioning was the decision making process. Why change the holder and then sell it (as a buy it now) for less, especially if one got the upgrade?
Easy and you know the obvious answer: I'm sure that in hindsight he would not have done it.
If he lost money on that one chances are there are lots of coins he didn't want to wait weeks to get graded at PCGS/NGC that may have brought more moolah. Hard to grade coins like incuse gold, 3 cent nickels, etc. would probably grade just as well at PCGS as ICG unless they were rare where the big(ger) boys tend to be tighter. But it is very hard to know with his pics.. He does run higher dollar PCGS/NGC coins too, where sometimes images are available outside of his pallid ones.
I'm sure there are "winners" from time to time buying from those with poor pics like Great Southern and other sellers.
Even, submariners and pirates are known for releasing, ballast, jetsam and bait from time to time to throw off the scent of those on their trail.
Albanese eat your heart out!
I'm surprised he didn't use the GC photos of the PCGS 65 in the ICG listing. He already had a nice reverse photo and the obverse just needed to be cropped
. His game is slipping?
Logger, have you ever considered starting a Numismatic BBB of sorts?
No, I'm not qualified, nor do I have the resources or other skills to do that; there are plenty of others connected to the ANA who could.
...but you are one of the BB
around here who watches 
for these things and lets us know.
It seems that when ebay is the venue, "buy the coin, not the holder" becomes "buy whatever, file a SNAD."
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
And, as stated, Centsles KNOWS how to grade....at that point, it comes down to:
"No Santa Claus in numismatics"
"How much time is money?" (ie...buy for $X and then get it slabbed/sold for $X=$Y, or wait MUCH MUCH longer, and pay a bit more, to get it slabbed, if it will slab, by PCGS/NGC and try to sell for $X + added costs + wanted profit margin + extra time money was tied up)
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I see a lot of problem or at least somewhat overgraded coins in PCGS and NGC holders; if by and large ICG is adhering to an "art" of coin grading by eye appeal, but occasionally fudging on strict standards then that will be their reputation and hopefully collectors will still "buy the coin not the holder". But the collector is still thinking about whether they will be crossing the ICG coins into PCGS holders or how they will sell them in the end, then there is the pride of ownership, if you show your good buddy a PCGS and or cac coin they will judge first the holder/sticker then the coin, whereas they may be prejudicial against a non-P/N holder, which is too bad but how the world judges things, like where you came from, what you do for work, how much money you have and whether you went to an Ivy league college.
A quick example on an ICG Bust half that graded MS61:
Vs. an NGC MS61 sitting in a local shop:
I like my coin a lot more.
That 1833 graded by ICG is properly graded MS-61 and it looks the way it does because it's a very late die state.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
And yet, if he is still bidding, then he wasn't blocked....weird....
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
If commercialism these days is all about effective branding he isn't helping his brand or ICGs with crappy pictures.
He has this key date, an 1911-D $2 1/2 up for sale tonight: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1911-D-INDIAN-HEAD-2-5-GOLD-QUARTER-EAGLE-ICG-MS62-LISTS-FOR-10-750-RARE/142893062792
When I see a really high value coin like that not in a PCGS or NGC holder, I wonder why.
Too funny!
Perhaps he wants EXTREMELY FAST and low cost service. I'll bet knowledgeable folks buy coins such as this based on the coin itself with no regard for what TPGS graded it.
AFAIK, the coin would be worth more in a PCGS slab so one day it may end up in one. Makes good sense to me.
PS Thanks for posting. See what else you
can find on Ebay that is as interesting. 
A friend sent me this earlier who heard from another forum member:
"I bought a lot of his coins (centles) that now reside in PCGS holders at a much lower cost back in the day. In fact, he even posted on this forum at one time for a very short while. But the new forums search engine really sucks and I can not find."
Another high grade coin is blasting off soon:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1927-S-PEACE-SILVER-DOLLAR-ICG-MS65-LISTS-FOR-25-000-EXTRA-RARE-THIS-NICE/382534487675
This MS68 Morgan just sold: https://www.ebay.com/itm/-/142893046543?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l10137
Wow that Morgan is actually pretty nice. I've noticed that he is now listing the price guide value in the header, obviously to drive up bids... But how could this coin sell for $2,550...and as you say @logger7, for a high value coin like that, why isn't it in PCGS plastic (no offense ICG, I love you and have purchased several coins from centsles in ICG holders--just not with a 20k spread). One just sold 1/18 on Heritage for $22.5k - in a PCGS holder.
So would it cross to 68? With a pop of 8, and such an increase in value from 67 to 68, I don't know. But even though the pictures are just not quite good enough to decide, for a $20k bump, I'd take a shot for sure.
Exept I hear that little voice in my head... if it seems too good to be true...
@Insider2 what are your thoughts?
Can you ask this guy to send better pix to you? Not unreasonable at those prices.
Listen to your voice. It may cross at 66. Not Insider and don't claim to be near as good, but 66 is still a pretty strong grade.
I agree. I would love that coin at 66, but wouldn't pay over $300 for it unless I wanted to gamble...and that's not why I collect. That little voice I'm sure has saved me from wasting lots of money. Apparently whomever purchased it was willing to bet on around 67+ minimum according to the price guide. I'd love to find out what the outcome of story is.
It’s not going to end well for the buyer.
My thoughts: I've NEVER graded a Morgan dollar MS/PR-68 in my life. Therefore, I would not buy one unless it had a CAC sticker (they don't do ANACS or ICG coins for many reasons and I don't know all of them).
I recently bought three coins from an auction all graded by NNC which is centles grading Company from what I have read. I sent two coins off to PCGS that had been graded as proof like 67 and an MS 67 both were returned by PCGS as details coined one had been cleaned the other one artificially toned I noticed on his eBay account he has a tremendous amount of toned coins especially rim toning I find this very curious that someone would have so many toned coins listed but when I sent mine off to a PCGS it come back as artificially toned I don't know if he is artificially toning the coins but I suspect he may be I will personally steer clear of any of his coins