Other for Red Sox - Roger Clemens, Herb Pennock, two Hall of Fame pitchers
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@Coinstartled said:
Bonds should not be in the discussion.
Your point of reasoning understood.
However in my view, despite the steroids, and despite his arrogant personality, I have to put him at #4. I've never seen anyone hit a home run so effortlessly.
Before he bulked up? McGuire pounded the ball too, but I don't like the juicers. My belief is that steroid users should be eliminated from discussions like this.
I don't knock anyone who thinks that. Certainly the Hall of Fame voters think that.
I'm not excusing steroids at all, they are repugnant to me, and the fact is using them for almost all people leads to an early death - that is a scientific fact.
That being said, it's rumored that Babe Ruth used horse steroids, which considering a number of circumstances wouldn't surprise me if it was true. Mantle and many others from his era used "greenies" which is a slang word for amphetamines which are also repugnant to me.
I agree that any drug use is a negative thing. Amphetamines were commonly used (probably still are), they are in my mind a huge difference to steroids in that "greenies" were a temporary "boost" that might at times be beneficial and at times not. While steroids make the body heal faster and enable body changes that can be quite radical.
In the book "Ball Four" former Major Leaguer Jim Bouten said that "greenies" could help you but if you took too many it could also hurt your performance.
I had never heard anything about Ruth's using steroids, (I have a couple of books about him) but even if he did, I doubt that what he might have took were as well engineered as the modern stuff.
If you want to go farther, coffee and cigarettes contain stimulants as well, amphetamines are worse, but injecting drugs into the body seems to me to be in a whole new ballpark (pun intended).
Excellent points!
I heard that about Ruth a few times from different people over the years. I did one time search on the internet some years back and couldn't find anything on it.
Ruth died of cancer at age 53 which is a common occurrence of steroid users, dying young from various cancers. So I haven't yet ruled it out.
correlation is not causation , back to elementary school with you buddy
@Coinstartled said:
Bonds should not be in the discussion.
Your point of reasoning understood.
However in my view, despite the steroids, and despite his arrogant personality, I have to put him at #4. I've never seen anyone hit a home run so effortlessly.
HAVE YOU NEVER WATCHED KEN GRIFFEY JR. HIT HOME RUNS? ALSO THE FASTEST TO 400 HR EVER. IF HE HADNT PLAYED CENTER FIELD SO WELL, AND WITH NO THOUGHT TO BODILY HARM (THUS INJURIES) HE WOULD BE THE HR LEARDER.
Are you yelling like Bobcat Goldthwait or is this a keypad issue? Just want to know how I should be reading your posts. I hope it’s the yelling
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Coinstartled said:
Bonds should not be in the discussion.
Your point of reasoning understood.
However in my view, despite the steroids, and despite his arrogant personality, I have to put him at #4. I've never seen anyone hit a home run so effortlessly.
HAVE YOU NEVER WATCHED KEN GRIFFEY JR. HIT HOME RUNS? ALSO THE FASTEST TO 400 HR EVER. IF HE HADNT PLAYED CENTER FIELD SO WELL, AND WITH NO THOUGHT TO BODILY HARM (THUS INJURIES) HE WOULD BE THE HR LEARDER.
Ken Griffey Jr is already in the Hall of Fame, so don't worry about it. LOL
@BillJones said:
Here are some stats for you for the Koufax vs. Spahn evaluation:
Here are Koufax's banner years:
1961 W-18, L-13, ERA 3.54
1962 W-14, L-7, ERA 2.58
1963 W-25, L-5, ERA 1.88
1964 W-19, L-5, ERA 1.74
1965 W-26, L-8, ERA 2.04
1966 W-27, L-9, ERA 1.73
Then he retired for health reasons.
Prior to that Koufax won 36 games and lost 40. His ERA ranged from 3.02 to 4.91. Koufax had pitching control issues at this time. He could not get the ball over the plate consistantly. I remember one of the Phillie announcers talking about one of his starts where he walked the first batters in a Phillies game and was take out because his wildness.
Over all Koufax's won - lost record was 165 - 87. That is a low number of wins for a Hall of Fame pitcher.
Warren Spahn won - loss record was 363 - 245. Some like to dump on him because of the number losses. In his prime he was one of those pitchers who won 20 or more games and lost 10 or 12 in a season.
From 1947 to 1963, 16 seasons, Spahn won 20 games in 13 of those seaons. He lead the league in wins (black numbers) 8 times during that stretch.
Spahn's worst season during his "golden" 16 season run was in 1952. That year he had 14 wins and 19 losses. His ERA was 2.98. Anything under 3.00 is considered good. Five of those wins were shutouts.
He was playing for the Boston Braves in their last season before they moved to Milwaukee. That team finished 7th, next to last, in the National League with a 64 - 89 record.
Koufax was probably the best the pitcher there ever was from 1963 to 1966, but Spahn was there as the ace for his team for 16 years, and some of those teams were not very good.
IIRC Spahn also once pitched both ends of a double header.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@BillJones said:
Here are some stats for you for the Koufax vs. Spahn evaluation:
Here are Koufax's banner years:
1961 W-18, L-13, ERA 3.54
1962 W-14, L-7, ERA 2.58
1963 W-25, L-5, ERA 1.88
1964 W-19, L-5, ERA 1.74
1965 W-26, L-8, ERA 2.04
1966 W-27, L-9, ERA 1.73
Then he retired for health reasons.
Prior to that Koufax won 36 games and lost 40. His ERA ranged from 3.02 to 4.91. Koufax had pitching control issues at this time. He could not get the ball over the plate consistantly. I remember one of the Phillie announcers talking about one of his starts where he walked the first batters in a Phillies game and was take out because his wildness.
Over all Koufax's won - lost record was 165 - 87. That is a low number of wins for a Hall of Fame pitcher.
Warren Spahn won - loss record was 363 - 245. Some like to dump on him because of the number losses. In his prime he was one of those pitchers who won 20 or more games and lost 10 or 12 in a season.
From 1947 to 1963, 16 seasons, Spahn won 20 games in 13 of those seaons. He lead the league in wins (black numbers) 8 times during that stretch.
Spahn's worst season during his "golden" 16 season run was in 1952. That year he had 14 wins and 19 losses. His ERA was 2.98. Anything under 3.00 is considered good. Five of those wins were shutouts.
He was playing for the Boston Braves in their last season before they moved to Milwaukee. That team finished 7th, next to last, in the National League with a 64 - 89 record.
Koufax was probably the best the pitcher there ever was from 1963 to 1966, but Spahn was there as the ace for his team for 16 years, and some of those teams were not very good.
IIRC Spahn also once pitched both ends of a double header.
Wow! I didn't know anyone had done that in modern times. Sounds like something "iron Man" McGinty would have done in the 'teens.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
Here are some stats for you for the Koufax vs. Spahn evaluation:
Here are Koufax's banner years:
1961 W-18, L-13, ERA 3.54
1962 W-14, L-7, ERA 2.58
1963 W-25, L-5, ERA 1.88
1964 W-19, L-5, ERA 1.74
1965 W-26, L-8, ERA 2.04
1966 W-27, L-9, ERA 1.73
Then he retired for health reasons.
Prior to that Koufax won 36 games and lost 40. His ERA ranged from 3.02 to 4.91. Koufax had pitching control issues at this time. He could not get the ball over the plate consistantly. I remember one of the Phillie announcers talking about one of his starts where he walked the first batters in a Phillies game and was take out because his wildness.
Over all Koufax's won - lost record was 165 - 87. That is a low number of wins for a Hall of Fame pitcher.
Warren Spahn won - loss record was 363 - 245. Some like to dump on him because of the number losses. In his prime he was one of those pitchers who won 20 or more games and lost 10 or 12 in a season.
From 1947 to 1963, 16 seasons, Spahn won 20 games in 13 of those seaons. He lead the league in wins (black numbers) 8 times during that stretch.
Spahn's worst season during his "golden" 16 season run was in 1952. That year he had 14 wins and 19 losses. His ERA was 2.98. Anything under 3.00 is considered good. Five of those wins were shutouts.
He was playing for the Boston Braves in their last season before they moved to Milwaukee. That team finished 7th, next to last, in the National League with a 64 - 89 record.
Koufax was probably the best the pitcher there ever was from 1963 to 1966, but Spahn was there as the ace for his team for 16 years, and some of those teams were not very good.
IIRC Spahn also once pitched both ends of a double header.
Wow! I didn't know anyone had done that in modern times. Sounds like something "iron Man" McGinty would have done in the 'teens.
I believe I read that somewhere a long time ago about Spahn. I'll have to research it further or maybe someone here can corroborate the stat.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@BillJones said:
Here are some stats for you for the Koufax vs. Spahn evaluation:
Here are Koufax's banner years:
1961 W-18, L-13, ERA 3.54
1962 W-14, L-7, ERA 2.58
1963 W-25, L-5, ERA 1.88
1964 W-19, L-5, ERA 1.74
1965 W-26, L-8, ERA 2.04
1966 W-27, L-9, ERA 1.73
Then he retired for health reasons.
Prior to that Koufax won 36 games and lost 40. His ERA ranged from 3.02 to 4.91. Koufax had pitching control issues at this time. He could not get the ball over the plate consistantly. I remember one of the Phillie announcers talking about one of his starts where he walked the first batters in a Phillies game and was take out because his wildness.
Over all Koufax's won - lost record was 165 - 87. That is a low number of wins for a Hall of Fame pitcher.
Warren Spahn won - loss record was 363 - 245. Some like to dump on him because of the number losses. In his prime he was one of those pitchers who won 20 or more games and lost 10 or 12 in a season.
From 1947 to 1963, 16 seasons, Spahn won 20 games in 13 of those seaons. He lead the league in wins (black numbers) 8 times during that stretch.
Spahn's worst season during his "golden" 16 season run was in 1952. That year he had 14 wins and 19 losses. His ERA was 2.98. Anything under 3.00 is considered good. Five of those wins were shutouts.
He was playing for the Boston Braves in their last season before they moved to Milwaukee. That team finished 7th, next to last, in the National League with a 64 - 89 record.
Koufax was probably the best the pitcher there ever was from 1963 to 1966, but Spahn was there as the ace for his team for 16 years, and some of those teams were not very good.
IIRC Spahn also once pitched both ends of a double header.
Wow! I didn't know anyone had done that in modern times. Sounds like something "iron Man" McGinty would have done in the 'teens.
I believe I read that somewhere a long time ago about Spahn. I'll have to research it further or maybe someone here can corroborate the stat.
Spahn did have a "rubber arm." He pitched into his early 40s and was the master of the screwball which can do a job one you when you throw one.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I don’t think Spahn did. If he did I would love to know about it. I know Wilbur Wood pitched both ends of a DH against the Tigers. Albeit he threw a ton of knuckleballs. Don Newcombe also did.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I could not find any definitive info. about what I had stated. I must have misread it. It was quite some time ago and was relying on a distant memory. My apologies for posting in error.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@Coinstartled said:
Bonds should not be in the discussion.
Your point of reasoning understood.
However in my view, despite the steroids, and despite his arrogant personality, I have to put him at #4. I've never seen anyone hit a home run so effortlessly.
HAVE YOU NEVER WATCHED KEN GRIFFEY JR. HIT HOME RUNS? ALSO THE FASTEST TO 400 HR EVER. IF HE HADNT PLAYED CENTER FIELD SO WELL, AND WITH NO THOUGHT TO BODILY HARM (THUS INJURIES) HE WOULD BE THE HR LEARDER.
Ken Griffey Jr is already in the Hall of Fame, so don't worry about it. LOL
IM SORRY I DIDNT KNOW IT WAS A QUESTION OF GOING OR NOT GOING TO THE HALL. AND IF BONDS IS PART OF THAT EQUATION, IM SORRY I POSTED. ANY BASEBALL POST FREE AGENCY IS WOMENS BASEBALL. GOD BLESS PETE ROSE AND THURMAN MUNSON!
@Coinstartled said:
Bonds should not be in the discussion.
Your point of reasoning understood.
However in my view, despite the steroids, and despite his arrogant personality, I have to put him at #4. I've never seen anyone hit a home run so effortlessly.
HAVE YOU NEVER WATCHED KEN GRIFFEY JR. HIT HOME RUNS? ALSO THE FASTEST TO 400 HR EVER. IF HE HADNT PLAYED CENTER FIELD SO WELL, AND WITH NO THOUGHT TO BODILY HARM (THUS INJURIES) HE WOULD BE THE HR LEARDER.
Ken Griffey Jr is already in the Hall of Fame, so don't worry about it. LOL
IM SORRY I DIDNT KNOW IT WAS A QUESTION OF GOING OR NOT GOING TO THE HALL. AND IF BONDS IS PART OF THAT EQUATION, IM SORRY I POSTED. ANY BASEBALL POST FREE AGENCY IS WOMENS BASEBALL. GOD BLESS PETE ROSE AND THURMAN MUNSON!
I've been sorry here 19,096 times.
Munson just hadn't accumulated the necessary stats yet when he died in that tragic plane crash.
I think Rose may have eventually gotten in, maybe...but...recently he has been accused, and I think it's probably true, of having a "relationship" with an underage girl some years ago. Americans will tolerate a lot and forgive a lot, but an adult having sex with an underage girl is an entirely different matter. When that news story broke, in my opinion, Rose sealed his fate.
And yes, it's a bit strange that as an adult, you can go to jail for fornicating with a girl aged 17 years and 364 days, but then 1 day later it's okay. However that's the law. We do the same thing in society for drinking, smoking, gambling, getting a driver's license at a certain age, etc.
I think Rose may have eventually gotten in, maybe...but...recently he has been accused, and I think it's probably true, of having a "relationship" with an underage girl some years ago. Americans will tolerate a lot and forgive a lot, but an adult having sex with an underage girl is an entirely different matter.
If you went to high school in the 1970's you know it was very common for teachers to be dating underage students. Everyone knew about it. No one hid it. And lots of them were having sex.
No one said a word, and I don't believe there were any laws against it at the time, but I'm not sure of that. I doubt there were laws, or the teachers could have been fired.
Pete Rose can easily be forgiven for doing that years ago. It was part of the culture back then.
Just like somebody from the 1930's can be forgiven for the way they were back then. Times change, and people change with the times. Forgive and forget.
The problem is that Rose has more baggage than just that. We all know the story about him betting on baseball, and he also went to prison for income tax evasion.
With everything combined, Rose is going to have a tough time of it getting into the Hall. Likely, if not definitely at this point, it's not going to be possible in his lifetime.
Joe Jackson had better stats than Pete Rose, and he's never going to get into the Hall despite the fact that he put up record hitting numbers, for the time, in the 1919 "Black Sox" World Series. Rose will never make it to the Hall of Fame, at least while he's alive.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Betting on baseball ? If he threw games, then yes, that's a reason not to go into the hall. But did he ever admit to throwing a game ?
With all we know he did, and what we know he tried to keep hidden, and what we do know he lied about, suddenly we take him at his word he never threw a game. Perhaps he didn't, perhaps he did. Rose was one of my favorite players with the "Big Red Machine", but as a human being he belongs in the Hall of Shame.
With everything combined, Rose is going to have a tough time of it getting into the Hall. Likely, if not definitely at this point, it's not going to be possible in his lifetime.
I agree with that only because of the times we live in, and the fact that what he has done has become public knowledge.
Income tax evasion does not hurt anyone. The government robs us of our money anyway. You know that better then I. What I'm saying is that Pete didn't do any harm to anyone other then himself in that situation.
Underage girl ? Heck, a lot of the girls in the 1970s wanted to be with an older man. Now it's
illegal, and I say I agree with that law. But Pete did not hurt anyone if the girl consented.
Betting on baseball ? If he threw games, then yes, that's a reason not to go into the hall. But did he ever admit to throwing a game ? If he bet on his team to win, there is nothing wrong with that. As you can see, sports betting is becoming legal in the United States. We don't see it as a crime. Betting on the stock market or baseball is not a crime. Did Pete really do something
wrong if he bet on the Reds to win a game he managed ?? I don't think so. I think what really should be illegal is what the White Sox did. Throwing a game and taking a part of the action.
I think you should think about your thoughts. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying
you should examine it a little further.
If you convinced me where Pete Rose did something to try to hurt someone, then I would consider it.
An interesting comment that Rose has made, (paraphrase) "I'm the only person I know who went to prison for paying 95% of his taxes." I can see Rose's point on that. Probably a fine would have been more appropriate. But judges for a long time have wanted to set examples out of public figures so the rest of us common folk don't try doing the same thing.
About the girl...this wasn't a one night stand where the girl looked like she was 25 or something. Rose went out with her a number of times and surely he knew her age. Of course dating a sexy 17 year old, as Paul McCartney sang "You know what I mean" isn't the same as say a 10 year old, and that's what judges are for when the case goes to court. A sex crime with a 10 year old, I have to believe would incur a harsher penalty than with a 17 year old. In any event, despite the probability that the girl looked like an adult, Rose still broke the law.
About Rose's gambling...how a player can throw a game is obvious. With a manager, there are many more ways a manager can throw a game, usually involving the pitcher in various ways.
The Hall of Vote voters, I'd be fairly certain, know and understand all of this, and that is the crux of the problem for Pete Rose.
Agree with you 100% on the taxes. Judges have to interpret laws. If Rose was guilty of
breaking that law by only 5%, then the judge is within the law to impose a sanction on him.
As you said, perhaps the sanction didn't fit the crime, but I will not debate that.
17 year old girl - Are you sure Pete broke the laws in the state of Ohio back in the 80s or 90s
when he did this ? If you're not, I would not know better, because I do not know the law, but I will say this, back in the 1970s there were no laws because teachers were doing it and didn't care if anyone knew, as we all knew, and no teacher was losing their job about it.
A manager throw a game through a pitcher ? Well, that's a bit of a stretch. I've seen relief pitchers with 1.50 era's blow games, and I've seen relief pitchers with 4.34 era's throw two shutout innings. Plus, unless you have Pete Rose admit in a court of law that he admitted to throwing baseball games (which he never did), then that court could never EVER find him guilty
of fixing baseball games. They could assume it, but they could never prove it. You need proof to convict someone, not just assumptions.
You don't need proof to keep the douchebag out of the hall of fame though .
Its a matter of perception of guilt and a voter decides note to vote him in. That's it its over , it doesn't matter how many old cranks are crying into their geritol about it , it's time to move on .
The fact that getting into the HOF is so important to Pete is reason enough to vote against him . Just seeing him about to burst into tears over it to this day is pretty sweet
You don't need proof to keep the douchebag out of the hall of fame though .
Innocent until proven guilty. Proven is the key word. You can hate Pete all you want, but
until he's proven guilty, he is innocent. I'm no Pete Rose supporter. I don't care for him
either. But lots of people are in jail for crimes they never committed. That is the worst crime of all.
Wrong , there is no standard of proof for HOF voting . Anyone with a vote can do whatever they want . They can vote against anyone they think is juicing without proof if they feel like it also.
Gambling and baseball have been a major no-no since the fixed World Series of 1919. Anyone in baseball who is involved with gambling is treading on thin ice. Even going to a racetrack had the “protectors of the game” viewing that as “suspicious activity” for many years. Pete Rose is dead in the water so far as the Hall of Fame is concerned. Maybe when he is dead and a group of sportswriters, who have different values are voting, will be the time when he gets into the Hall.
Even a player like Buck Weaver who refused to take the gambler’s money and played an honest World Series was banned for life. My opinion about Buck Weaver was that he was stuck between a rock and hard place. He could have gone to owner Charles Comiskey and told him everything, but Comiskey was more concerned about his financial investment in the game than the game’s integrity.
Comiskey should be removed from the Hall of Fame in my opinion, but I know that Chicago White Sox fans will be down on me for that. Hell, they even named their new stadium after him, which was a travesty in my opinion. The guy should be viewed like Cap Anson, who was a great player, but also a racist. Given the fact the fact that racism is on a par with unethical behavior and dishonesty, I’d rate Anson ahead of Comiskey, but I know I’ve really got some people angry now. I’ll expand on my views if you like.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
Gambling and baseball have been a major no-no since the fixed World Series of 1919. Anyone in baseball who is involved with gambling is treading on thin ice. Even going to a racetrack had the “protectors of the game” viewing that as “suspicious activity” for many years. Pete Rose is dead in the water so far as the Hall of Fame is concerned. Maybe when he is dead and a group of sportswriters, who have different values are voting, will be the time when he gets into the Hall.
Even a player like Buck Weaver who refused to take the gambler’s money and played an honest World Series was banned for life. My opinion about Buck Weaver was that he was stuck between a rock and hard place. He could have gone to owner Charles Comiskey and told him everything, but Comiskey was more concerned about his financial investment in the game than the game’s integrity.
Comiskey should be removed from the Hall of Fame in my opinion, but I know that Chicago White Sox fans will be down on me for that. Hell, they even named their new stadium after him, which was a travesty in my opinion. The guy should be viewed like Cap Anson, who was a great player, but also a racist. Given the fact the fact that racism is on a par with unethical behavior and dishonesty, I’d rate Anson ahead of Comiskey, but I know I’ve really got some people angry now. I’ll expand on my views if you like.
<<< Maybe when he is dead and a group of sportswriters, who have different values are voting, will be the time when he gets into the Hall. >>>
I agree with ya. I think it's his only chance at this point.
@DIMEMAN said:
The Hall is not worth crap without the alltime career hit leader!!!
... Ahh, no. Rose hung around to get those hits when he was washed up and not much of an asset to his team. A pitcher could not do that to get more wins. Spahn tried to do that with the Mets and only hurt his all time numbers.
A-rod also tired to hang around, but there were not takers. Rose was washed up when he broke that recond, and if he had had more character, I would have supported him. Ty Cobb batted .327 in his last seaon. I stated that average from memory, but I know that is close.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@DIMEMAN said:
The Hall is not worth crap without the alltime career hit leader!!!
... Ahh, no. Rose hung around to get those hits when he was washed up and not much of an asset to his team. A pitcher could not do that to get more wins. Spahn tried to do that with the Mets and only hurt his all time numbers.
A-rod also tired to hang around, but there were not takers. Rose was washed up when he broke that recond, and if he had had more character, I would have supported him. Ty Cobb batted .327 in his last seaon. I stated that average from memory, but I know that is close.
Most players hung around too long to break records. Not just Rose.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
@garnettstyle said:
If OJ and Tyson can be in the hall, then so should Rose.
OJ was enshrined well before 1994.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
OJ, never!!!! He is a cold blooded, unrepentant murder! You need to live with that. No!!! You need to have some standards for all time honors.
Tyson has a mental competency issue, and I could let that pass.
Rose has multiple problems as I have said before.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@garnettstyle said:
If OJ and Tyson can be in the hall, then so should Rose.
OJ was enshrined well before 1994.
Yes, but why is he still in there? And Tyson was inducted years after he got out of prison. There are also people in the hall for tax evasion which is also a felony.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
@garnettstyle said:
If OJ and Tyson can be in the hall, then so should Rose.
OJ was enshrined well before 1994.
Not to mention different halls, different rules and different standards. I can’t stand Pete Rose but it wouldn’t bother me if he got in one day.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@garnettstyle said:
If OJ and Tyson can be in the hall, then so should Rose.
OJ was enshrined well before 1994.
Yes, but why is he still in there? And Tyson was inducted years after he got out of prison. There are also people in the hall for tax evasion which is also a felony.
That raises an interesting question. Has anyone from the 4 major sports ever been removed from the HOF after induction? I can't think of any.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@DIMEMAN said:
The Hall is not worth crap without the alltime career hit leader!!!
... Ahh, no. Rose hung around to get those hits when he was washed up and not much of an asset to his team. A pitcher could not do that to get more wins. Spahn tried to do that with the Mets and only hurt his all time numbers.
A-rod also tired to hang around, but there were not takers. Rose was washed up when he broke that recond, and if he had had more character, I would have supported him. Ty Cobb batted .327 in his last seaon. I stated that average from memory, but I know that is close.
Most players hung around too long to break records. Not just Rose.
Many of them, like Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle, hung around too long for the money. You can’t blame them. Rose, well he wanted the numbers. So did Early Winn, but he stayed long enough to get win 300. You can hardly blame him.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@garnettstyle said:
If OJ and Tyson can be in the hall, then so should Rose.
OJ was enshrined well before 1994.
Not to mention different halls, different rules and different standards. I can’t stand Pete Rose but it wouldn’t bother me if he got in one day.
mark
Definition of HALL OF FAME...
A room or building set aside to honor outstanding individuals. If OJ is outstanding then what does that make Pete?
A degenerate gambler who agreed to a lifetime ban because he wanted Dowd to stop digging?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@garnettstyle said:
If OJ and Tyson can be in the hall, then so should Rose.
OJ was enshrined well before 1994.
Not to mention different halls, different rules and different standards. I can’t stand Pete Rose but it wouldn’t bother me if he got in one day.
mark
Definition of HALL OF FAME...
A room or building set aside to honor outstanding individuals. If OJ is outstanding then what does that make Pete?
A degenerate gambler who agreed to a lifetime ban because he wanted Dowd to stop digging?
As long as he didn't bet against his own team, he did nothing wrong imo.
Why do you think he wanted Dowd to stop digging?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Comments
<<< too many players are in it to be “Hall Worthy” >>>
Couldn't agree more with that.
My opinion is the Hall of Fame should only be for super stars, not including just stars.
It's been watered down, and of course we all know why, because it's about the money.
The HOF is still a very enjoyable place to visit. I've been there twice, the last time around 15 years ago.
However seeing Bill Mazeroski in there with Babe Ruth? A little bit silly in my view.
Other for Red Sox - Roger Clemens, Herb Pennock, two Hall of Fame pitchers
correlation is not causation , back to elementary school with you buddy
HAVE YOU NEVER WATCHED KEN GRIFFEY JR. HIT HOME RUNS? ALSO THE FASTEST TO 400 HR EVER. IF HE HADNT PLAYED CENTER FIELD SO WELL, AND WITH NO THOUGHT TO BODILY HARM (THUS INJURIES) HE WOULD BE THE HR LEARDER.
HEY LEMON HEAD
Are you yelling like Bobcat Goldthwait or is this a keypad issue? Just want to know how I should be reading your posts. I hope it’s the yelling
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Ken Griffey Jr is already in the Hall of Fame, so don't worry about it. LOL
IIRC Spahn also once pitched both ends of a double header.
Wow! I didn't know anyone had done that in modern times. Sounds like something "iron Man" McGinty would have done in the 'teens.
I believe I read that somewhere a long time ago about Spahn. I'll have to research it further or maybe someone here can corroborate the stat.
Spahn did have a "rubber arm." He pitched into his early 40s and was the master of the screwball which can do a job one you when you throw one.
I don’t think Spahn did. If he did I would love to know about it. I know Wilbur Wood pitched both ends of a DH against the Tigers. Albeit he threw a ton of knuckleballs. Don Newcombe also did.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I could not find any definitive info. about what I had stated. I must have misread it. It was quite some time ago and was relying on a distant memory. My apologies for posting in error.
NO SIR, MY EYES ARE GETTING BAD SO IT HELPS ME SEE, but if this is better, TUFF TITTY......LOL
IM SORRY I DIDNT KNOW IT WAS A QUESTION OF GOING OR NOT GOING TO THE HALL. AND IF BONDS IS PART OF THAT EQUATION, IM SORRY I POSTED. ANY BASEBALL POST FREE AGENCY IS WOMENS BASEBALL. GOD BLESS PETE ROSE AND THURMAN MUNSON!
I've been sorry here 19,096 times.
Munson just hadn't accumulated the necessary stats yet when he died in that tragic plane crash.
I think Rose may have eventually gotten in, maybe...but...recently he has been accused, and I think it's probably true, of having a "relationship" with an underage girl some years ago. Americans will tolerate a lot and forgive a lot, but an adult having sex with an underage girl is an entirely different matter. When that news story broke, in my opinion, Rose sealed his fate.
And yes, it's a bit strange that as an adult, you can go to jail for fornicating with a girl aged 17 years and 364 days, but then 1 day later it's okay. However that's the law. We do the same thing in society for drinking, smoking, gambling, getting a driver's license at a certain age, etc.
The problem is that Rose has more baggage than just that. We all know the story about him betting on baseball, and he also went to prison for income tax evasion.
With everything combined, Rose is going to have a tough time of it getting into the Hall. Likely, if not definitely at this point, it's not going to be possible in his lifetime.
Try actually finding out all the $hit Rose did. If you still think he's worthy of being in the HOF please kill yourself.
Joe Jackson had better stats than Pete Rose, and he's never going to get into the Hall despite the fact that he put up record hitting numbers, for the time, in the 1919 "Black Sox" World Series. Rose will never make it to the Hall of Fame, at least while he's alive.
With all we know he did, and what we know he tried to keep hidden, and what we do know he lied about, suddenly we take him at his word he never threw a game. Perhaps he didn't, perhaps he did. Rose was one of my favorite players with the "Big Red Machine", but as a human being he belongs in the Hall of Shame.
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Ralph
Personally I believe Joe Jackson belongs in the Hall. I think Rose should go in posthumously.
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Ralph
An interesting comment that Rose has made, (paraphrase) "I'm the only person I know who went to prison for paying 95% of his taxes." I can see Rose's point on that. Probably a fine would have been more appropriate. But judges for a long time have wanted to set examples out of public figures so the rest of us common folk don't try doing the same thing.
About the girl...this wasn't a one night stand where the girl looked like she was 25 or something. Rose went out with her a number of times and surely he knew her age. Of course dating a sexy 17 year old, as Paul McCartney sang "You know what I mean" isn't the same as say a 10 year old, and that's what judges are for when the case goes to court. A sex crime with a 10 year old, I have to believe would incur a harsher penalty than with a 17 year old. In any event, despite the probability that the girl looked like an adult, Rose still broke the law.
About Rose's gambling...how a player can throw a game is obvious. With a manager, there are many more ways a manager can throw a game, usually involving the pitcher in various ways.
The Hall of Vote voters, I'd be fairly certain, know and understand all of this, and that is the crux of the problem for Pete Rose.
You don't need proof to keep the douchebag out of the hall of fame though .
Its a matter of perception of guilt and a voter decides note to vote him in. That's it its over , it doesn't matter how many old cranks are crying into their geritol about it , it's time to move on .
The fact that getting into the HOF is so important to Pete is reason enough to vote against him . Just seeing him about to burst into tears over it to this day is pretty sweet
Wrong , there is no standard of proof for HOF voting . Anyone with a vote can do whatever they want . They can vote against anyone they think is juicing without proof if they feel like it also.
Gambling and baseball have been a major no-no since the fixed World Series of 1919. Anyone in baseball who is involved with gambling is treading on thin ice. Even going to a racetrack had the “protectors of the game” viewing that as “suspicious activity” for many years. Pete Rose is dead in the water so far as the Hall of Fame is concerned. Maybe when he is dead and a group of sportswriters, who have different values are voting, will be the time when he gets into the Hall.
Even a player like Buck Weaver who refused to take the gambler’s money and played an honest World Series was banned for life. My opinion about Buck Weaver was that he was stuck between a rock and hard place. He could have gone to owner Charles Comiskey and told him everything, but Comiskey was more concerned about his financial investment in the game than the game’s integrity.
Comiskey should be removed from the Hall of Fame in my opinion, but I know that Chicago White Sox fans will be down on me for that. Hell, they even named their new stadium after him, which was a travesty in my opinion. The guy should be viewed like Cap Anson, who was a great player, but also a racist. Given the fact the fact that racism is on a par with unethical behavior and dishonesty, I’d rate Anson ahead of Comiskey, but I know I’ve really got some people angry now. I’ll expand on my views if you like.
The Hall is not worth crap without the alltime career hit leader!!!
<<< Maybe when he is dead and a group of sportswriters, who have different values are voting, will be the time when he gets into the Hall. >>>
I agree with ya. I think it's his only chance at this point.
... Ahh, no. Rose hung around to get those hits when he was washed up and not much of an asset to his team. A pitcher could not do that to get more wins. Spahn tried to do that with the Mets and only hurt his all time numbers.
A-rod also tired to hang around, but there were not takers. Rose was washed up when he broke that recond, and if he had had more character, I would have supported him. Ty Cobb batted .327 in his last seaon. I stated that average from memory, but I know that is close.
Most players hung around too long to break records. Not just Rose.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
If OJ and Tyson can be in the hall, then so should Rose.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
OJ was enshrined well before 1994.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
OJ, never!!!! He is a cold blooded, unrepentant murder! You need to live with that. No!!! You need to have some standards for all time honors.
Tyson has a mental competency issue, and I could let that pass.
Rose has multiple problems as I have said before.
Yes, but why is he still in there? And Tyson was inducted years after he got out of prison. There are also people in the hall for tax evasion which is also a felony.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Not to mention different halls, different rules and different standards. I can’t stand Pete Rose but it wouldn’t bother me if he got in one day.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
That raises an interesting question. Has anyone from the 4 major sports ever been removed from the HOF after induction? I can't think of any.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Many of them, like Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle, hung around too long for the money. You can’t blame them. Rose, well he wanted the numbers. So did Early Winn, but he stayed long enough to get win 300. You can hardly blame him.
Definition of HALL OF FAME...
A room or building set aside to honor outstanding individuals. If OJ is outstanding then what does that make Pete?
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
A degenerate gambler who agreed to a lifetime ban because he wanted Dowd to stop digging?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
As long as he didn't bet against his own team, he did nothing wrong imo.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Well they do have Jack Morris.
Why do you think he wanted Dowd to stop digging?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.