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Ted Williams or Babe Ruth - Question
1970s
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in Sports Talk
We all know these are the two best hitters of all time. And I'd guess that if everyone had to give a nod to one or the other, they'd most likely go with Ruth, even though there would be a few Williams nods as well.
My question is how much did each players supporting cast have an effect on their final career statistics ?
Is it fair or unfair to say that Williams is the best because he didn't have the teams that Ruth had ?
Is it fair or unfair to say Williams is better because all the stats from back in Babe's time are inflated ?
?
1
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Ruth had Gehrig batting behind him, Williams had Vern Stephens.
One could make an argument that Gehrig was the third best hitter of all time. That's the biggest difference I see.
As far as Ruth's numbers being inflated, there were many factors that come into that debate.
Williams had to hit the slider.
I predict that Gene Tenace's name pop up by the 8th or ninth post.
Or Barry Sanders
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
My list of MLB GOAT hitters which as we all know, my lists are the well known gold standard of lists:
The top 4 are very easy...no debate required:
If we are taking steroids into consideration then my top 5 are Williams, Mays, Ruth, Gehrig and I’m throwing DiMaggio. If we don’t care about Steroids then I will put Bonds in and take out DiMaggio I mean a top 5 is nearly impossible, there are others that could be put in and I’d be fine with it. To the OP post I’d say Ruth benefits more from the lineup obviously, Id take Ted Williams all day
Bonds should not be in the discussion.
I would also not bring Bonds into it.
Jimmy Foxx should be ahead of Willie Mays (debate required) as well as Hornsby. Gehrig and DiMaggio already mentioned too.
Mays was a better all around player but not a better hitter. Too bad Bonds took steroids, he had a chance to rank up there with Mays.
Your point of reasoning understood.
However in my view, despite the steroids, and despite his arrogant personality, I have to put him at #4. I've never seen anyone hit a home run so effortlessly.
i'm shocked, shocked, that you have Ted Williams at #1.
Before he bulked up? McGuire pounded the ball too, but I don't like the juicers. My belief is that steroid users should be eliminated from discussions like this.
Another guy who rarely gets mentioned is Hank Greenberg, Missed about 4 1/2 years in the military but put up great numbers!
I don't knock anyone who thinks that. Certainly the Hall of Fame voters think that.
I'm not excusing steroids at all, they are repugnant to me, and the fact is using them for almost all people leads to an early death - that is a scientific fact.
That being said, it's rumored that Babe Ruth used horse steroids, which considering a number of circumstances wouldn't surprise me if it was true. Mantle and many others from his era used "greenies" which is a slang word for amphetamines which are also repugnant to me.
https://www.alternet.org/drugs/5-drugs-major-league-baseball
5 Drugs That Shaped Major League Baseball
Drug issues have been part of professional ball from the very beginning.
I got no problem with people leaving steroid guys out either. There are so many guys that could be in the discussion one way or another, Stan Musial is another guy not mentioned. I didn’t realize Hank Greenberg missed years like that
If the question is best hitter, I would select Williams over Ruth. Keep in mind Williams missed three peak years to military service.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Mays
Williams
Musual
Gehrig
Joe D
Foxx
Mantle
Ruth
I agree that any drug use is a negative thing. Amphetamines were commonly used (probably still are), they are in my mind a huge difference to steroids in that "greenies" were a temporary "boost" that might at times be beneficial and at times not. While steroids make the body heal faster and enable body changes that can be quite radical.
In the book "Ball Four" former Major Leaguer Jim Bouten said that "greenies" could help you but if you took too many it could also hurt your performance.
I had never heard anything about Ruth's using steroids, (I have a couple of books about him) but even if he did, I doubt that what he might have took were as well engineered as the modern stuff.
If you want to go farther, coffee and cigarettes contain stimulants as well, amphetamines are worse, but injecting drugs into the body seems to me to be in a whole new ballpark (pun intended).
Excellent points!
I heard that about Ruth a few times from different people over the years. I did one time search on the internet some years back and couldn't find anything on it.
Ruth died of cancer at age 53 which is a common occurrence of steroid users, dying young from various cancers. So I haven't yet ruled it out.
My top three, in order, are Ted Williams, Babe Ruth, and Lou Gehrig.
If not for ALS, Lou would've finished with over 600 homeruns and 3,000 hits, to go with a .340+ batting average.
Steve
Williams
Bonds
Mays
Ruth
Musial
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Williams lost five prime years of his career with the World War II years when he was in his prime, and later to Korea (which was totally unfair IMO). There is a risk to extrapolating home run totals, but if you do it for Williams, his total would have been 650 to 670. Williams also played his home games at Fenway Park, which has a deep right field. Ruth played at the Polo Grounds and then Yankee Stadium which both had short right field fences.
There is no doubt in my mind that Williams the greatest hitter of all time. He played during era of more modern pitching, and others said, he had a weaker supporting cast than Ruth did.
I rate Ruth as the greatest baseball player of all time because of his abilities as a pitcher. He could still an effective pitcher, even late in his career. The Yankees let him start a game or two late in the season according to my late father who was a big Ruth fan. You can see his pitching stats on-line or in the “Baseball Encyclopedia.”
Ruth died of throat cancer, which was probably brought on by his cigar smoking habit.
Ruth was baseball. I can live with Williams as greatest hitter and Ruth as greatest player
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Yes, but cancers are basically brought on by the body's inability to get rid of cancer cells. A new born baby has cancer cells, which are malignantly dividing defective cells, but the bodies cleansing system gets rid of them. When our body no longer has the ability to successfully get rid of these cells a tumor occurs. The tumors are deadlier in certain parts of the body for various reasons.
Steroids reduce and diminish our bodies ability to get rid of these cancer cells, and other diseases as well. Steroids eat away at our filtering organs such as the liver and kidneys, and our other internal organs.
Eventually our bodies break down and we all die, and at some point in time something is going to kill us, and even the healthiest human on earth if they live long enough is going to get cancer or have an organ fail or whatever and pass. Would Ruth have died anyway from that cancer, whether or not he used steroids. Perhaps. However without question, if he did use those mentioned steroids, the chances of his body fighting off those esophagus cancer cells was reduced or diminished. Therefore, I still can't rule out the possible use of steroids with Ruth. And it gives me no pleasure whatsoever to do that. I am a big fan of Babe Ruth who in my opinion did more for the game of baseball, by far, than any other MLB player in history. I mention it so hopefully at least one person out there reads this post, and makes the right decision never to use steroids.
Rumors from the 1930’s mean squat. Dimeman probably first floated the Ruth rumor at the corner Woolworth in Peoria in the late 50’s
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
From the pathology report on Babe's autopsy. Perhaps Jack Klugman can chime in on any steroid usage.
If Ruth played in today's game against today's pitching in today's parks.......he would hit around .270 and 25 HR a year.
And you sure couldn't afford him on defense. He would have to DH or maybe play 1st. And as far as pitching...today's hitters would eat him up.
He dominated his era like no other during any era . How come no one else during his era put up Ruth numbers? Nothing close. I’ll wait............
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
https://nyulocal.com/juicin-in-the-majors-a-history-of-steroids-in-baseball-d2facd1cbcfb
Excerpt:
PEDs can be traced all the way back to 1889, when Pud Galvin, a pitcher for the Pittsburgh Alleghenys (which eventually became the Pittsburgh Pirates), used Brown-Sequard Elixir. That’s code word for testosterone derived from other animals, most notably dogs and guinea pigs. Even Babe Ruth, the legendary outfielder for the New York Yankees, tried to inject himself with extract from sheep testicles in 1925. This act only made him ill and forced him to miss some playing time.
Much more google hits on this topic than when i last looked for it years ago.
Considering this, in my opinion, it wouldn't be a stretch to think that Ruth may have tried and/or used horse steroids as well.
If you leave bonds off the list you had better do it for all amphetamine users as well. Many believe fighter pilot Ted Williams was the one who introduced greenies to mlb. Mays was a well known user. People don't like to admit it but amphetamines are a PED and were banned as such in 2005. The ruth story is pretty well known as to the testosterone shots. Mantle also experimented with steroids and missed time in 1961 because of an abscess at his injection site. Furthermore, Ruth was caught using an illegal bat in 1923. In fact, cortisone is a steroid and is widely used to hasten players recovery. Isn't that exactly what anabolic steroids do?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Well Ruth had an illegal bat. He is off the list!
Might be interesting if more Hall of Fame voters were completely aware about all this, if they would then change their minds and cut the recent steroid era users some slack and vote them in.
I'm not excusing the player's behavior in this regard, just surmising what the voters might think.
Interesting that Roger Maris, who as we all know, broke Ruth's single season HR record, died at the age of 51 from, you guessed it, cancer.
Sadly makes ya wonder.
I think Hank Aaron deserves a mention, just for his unbelievable consistency.
I'm not saying he was the best hitter ever, but if you needed someone to show up
game after game and produce at a very high level, he would be a pretty good pick.
That’s why Aaron should be considered the all time home run leader. He did it honestly and kept care of himself so that he could continue to hit a lot of home runs at a ripe age for baseball. I think he hit 39 homr runs when he was 39 years old.
Bonds took the drugs, and everyone knows it.
GOAT? Can't be Gehrig because as good as he was he was a contemporary of Ruth and clearly not as good as Ruth. I think Ruth ultimately wins head to head with anyone, but the other two candidates for whom serious cases can be made are Williams and Mantle. And Gene Tenace.
Mays didn't hit as well as Mantle, but if you're talking greatest player, then Mays gets back into the conversation, as does Honus Wagner. And Gene Tenace.
I think that for a period of a few years in the mid 1950s, Willie Mays was the best player ever. He could run, was a great fielder and could hit for power with a high batting average. The trouble is you get into the argument about which is better, the player who was super for a comparatively short period or the player who was great for many years.
It’s the Koufax versus Spahn argument. I fall on the side of Spahn, but I know from past posts, that there are those out there who think Spahn is overrated.
Here are some stats for you for the Koufax vs. Spahn evaluation:
Here are Koufax's banner years:
1961 W-18, L-13, ERA 3.54
1962 W-14, L-7, ERA 2.58
1963 W-25, L-5, ERA 1.88
1964 W-19, L-5, ERA 1.74
1965 W-26, L-8, ERA 2.04
1966 W-27, L-9, ERA 1.73
Then he retired for health reasons.
Prior to that Koufax won 36 games and lost 40. His ERA ranged from 3.02 to 4.91. Koufax had pitching control issues at this time. He could not get the ball over the plate consistantly. I remember one of the Phillie announcers talking about one of his starts where he walked the first batters in a Phillies game and was take out because his wildness.
Over all Koufax's won - lost record was 165 - 87. That is a low number of wins for a Hall of Fame pitcher.
Warren Spahn won - loss record was 363 - 245. Some like to dump on him because of the number losses. In his prime he was one of those pitchers who won 20 or more games and lost 10 or 12 in a season.
From 1947 to 1963, 16 seasons, Spahn won 20 games in 13 of those seaons. He lead the league in wins (black numbers) 8 times during that stretch.
Spahn's worst season during his "golden" 16 season run was in 1952. That year he had 14 wins and 19 losses. His ERA was 2.98. Anything under 3.00 is considered good. Five of those wins were shutouts.
He was playing for the Boston Braves in their last season before they moved to Milwaukee. That team finished 7th, next to last, in the National League with a 64 - 89 record.
Koufax was probably the best the pitcher there ever was from 1963 to 1966, but Spahn was there as the ace for his team for 16 years, and some of those teams were not very good.
Koufax was not the best pitcher there ever was for one year or for five years. When you see his home and away splits you will see that dodger stadium had a "coors field" effect on him. Much like larr y walker. If you are looking for the greatest pitcher for a short stretch of years, Pedro or 94-95 maddux are your guys
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
If current players are allowed to be brought up, I’d have to atleast mention Albert Pujols and Miguel Cabrera. In my mind 2 of the best right hand hitters ever. And if you don’t care about steroids, Manny Ramirez.
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Manny Ramirez.
Yea, when the Red Sox first got him, he was so hot I saw a manager have him walked intentionally with the bases loaded. Better to give up one run than four.
How can one not care about steroids? A class of drugs that can double home run production for a given player.
I’ve always been a minority with my feelings about the steroid era but regardless my belief is that more people than not were on “Something”! Yes pitchers, hitters were both using. So it was the steroid era like the dead ball era the juiced ball era ect.. MLB goes in cycles and players in those cycles were part of the benefits and downfalls. That being said I think it’s absolutely too wide range of a player pool to pick and chose which players should be penalized. Take the whole era out of the equation or group it in and move on.
Manny Ramirez was my all time favorite Red Sox player until the year he quit on them and faked an injury and forced the Sox to trade him.
I would vote to drop the era from the Hall altogether based on the drug useage. But my interest in MLB today is a 1 on a hundred scale so it doesn't matter much either way.
My interest in the MLB HOF is probably less than that, too many players are in it to be “Hall Worthy”. In my opinion
Your premise is that each player actually played during his eligible years to do so. However, I think it impossible to give a fair analysis, now, or ever, given the years Williams lost to military service. These years were in the prime of his playing abilities. One can argue, or stipulate that Williams would have done x, y, or z, but the statistics simply aren't there because they never happened. Williams was gone for at least 3 years in his early 20s. Anyone would agree those were perhaps his best years, though I've not research the existing stats. He was gone again during the Korean war, more playing time lost.
Therefore, IMO, the questions are moot at best. My position is that they both added greatly to the game. However, my personal opinion is that Williams gave much to his country (as did many other ball players) in a time of need. Had he not been in military service, and he stayed healthy, no doubt he would have put up some great numbers...we'll never know. I had the good fortune as a young kid, living near Boston to see him play in Fenway. Great memories.
What sickens me most about the legendary Ted Williams, is that after his death, his pathetic son had him cryogenically frozen, decapitated, and encapsulated in a metal cylinder. Incredibly sad ending for such a legendary ballplayer and great American patriot!