I'm having trouble understanding tones vs cost for Indian Head Cent's
SiriusBlack
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As I've mentioned earlier I am looking to begin and slooooooooowly build a set registry of Indian Head Cents. I'm not trying to compete with the big players I just want a nice PCGS registry set with coins that I like on a limited budget.
As I peruse eBay just to see what's available I'm finding that what I like, I can't afford, and what I can afford, while not bad, they don't seem very special to me. I don't need to have the super fancy RD coins, but the BN coins seem kinda underwhelming.
I'm colorblind so while I can see colors, I sometimes can't see tones as well as the rest of you can. I can see the "Monster" Toned coins people post pretty easily, but I have a hard time with RB and RD cents. I rarely pick out the red tone in them. I can see an obvious completely red one but those are out of my price range and honestly, not my favorite to look at. There's a thread on BN coins here that I've been following and I'm beginning to realize I like the BN coins. I can see the chocolaty ones pretty easily, and when you get things like the blue thrown in I can see that stand out pretty well too. They're also more in my price range which is a plus!
I found this 1908 MS 65 BN coin that seems kinda nice to me online. I'm not sure how to factor in costs for tone. I have the redbook and this one is priced only $5 above what redbook for a 1908 MS 65BN coin is so I guess that's reasonable?
I'm also not entirely positive that my eyes are seeing the same nice coin that yours are. What I mean is to me this one looks nice and I kinda like it. I have NO idea if the rest of you would though. For all I know, the majority of you might tell me that's a horribly ugly coin!
Not my coin, hope it's acceptable to post here as an example. I'm just trying to learn, but I will remove if this is considered uncool!
Collector of randomness. Photographer at PCGS. Lover of Harry Potter.
Comments
Hi! I have a registry of toned BN IHC, and when it comes to toning, price guides really don’t hold much worth IMO. Yes, sometimes you can find them nicely toned for little or no premium, but when it’s a special coin, I’ve paid 6 times price guide for the uniqueness alone. The pictures coin has nice underlying red, as well as some purple of the reverse, I also like the look a lot.
You might check out "Coin Facts" to get an idea as to how the prices shake out between Brown, R&B and Red Indian Cents. I'm not saying that you should pay those prices, but it will at least give you feel for what the R&B and Red premiums are. "The Red Book" seems like it is a "last resort" pricing tool. The numbers there are averages and they are quite old, even when the book is first issued.
You can also get an idea about retail prices by looking at Heritage auction results.
As for the coin you considering, it's okay, but I think that you could find one without the spot in the field in front of Ms. Liberty's eye. There is also a small spot at the top of the obverse and a few around the words "ONE CENT."Some collectors are also concerned about the strike. Many want full feather tips at the top of the headdress. The luster on the piece is good, however. If you are attracted to that, you are on the right track.
Question for the OP: What color do you see in the TrueView?
It looks like dark chocolate to me. Under the United States lettering I can see what looks like the original bronze or copper kind of color. On the reverse within the One Cent area, I *think I see maybe a little blue or purple? I say I *think because I didn't pick up on anything right away, and only after @jcapaldo mentioned Purple and I went back and looked closer do I now say I can see something.
@BillJones I haven't heard of Coin Facts. I'll look into that. I also didn't notice the spots at first, but did see them on a second view. They don't jump out at me, but admittedly, my eye for these things is way below yours.
Collector of randomness. Photographer at PCGS. Lover of Harry Potter.
I see dark purple-brown with brown-orange in some of the recesses. This so-called "blue" is important on copper Indians. You may wish to have someone help you with "color" as color is extremely important for authentication, determining wear for grading, and eye-appeal.
That looks like a nice enough coin, though BillJones pointed out some other considerations. This is not a piece that has any color I'd consider special, and as a result I wouldn't pay a premium for it. If the coin had unattractive color it would be worth less (and I wouldn't buy it period), and then there's a range of subtle hues where the price should be relatively stable. The color really worth paying for is vibrant toning (and obviously price also goes up based on how much original red remains on the coin).
Regarding price, I'd caution that the Red Book is not an ideal source of pricing. I'd focus on Heritage and eBay as good repositories are significant price histories on a wide array of dates and grades.
I tried to follow the discussion on what made certain colors and which chemicals could remove color and what was the real original tone etc. Seemed like there was no consensus and it was a bit over my head.
Collector of randomness. Photographer at PCGS. Lover of Harry Potter.
@airplanenut I’ve looked at past eBay sales and see what you mean. One clarification, I said I was using redbook but I was actually using the PCGS Price Guide App. Brain stopped!
Collector of randomness. Photographer at PCGS. Lover of Harry Potter.
Some color is the norm, so don't think that just because there is something other than Brown, that it is automatically worth a premium. One thing with copper is that what you see is just the progression to going black. So watch out for paying too much for full red pieces if you get into that.
The coin you posted is what the discussion about "blue" copper was about. Some like it and pay a premium for the color.
@Insider2 I’m guessing this is the naturally toned kind?
Collector of randomness. Photographer at PCGS. Lover of Harry Potter.
This doesn't answer your question about pricing, but if you want to compare different colors of brown coins, this recent thread has some great toned brown Indian cents:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1002387/wildideas-favorite-grade-ms-65-bn-and-drawing-giveaway-winners-mach1ne-profliz-catbert#latest
https://thepennylady.com/
Wow they run the gamut of color don't they. You posted some beautiful examples!
Collector of randomness. Photographer at PCGS. Lover of Harry Potter.
Cant remember where I got this from but it may help with what color you are seeing.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Thank you, @1Mike1 That's really helpful! I can't really see the Red in some of the Red and Red Brown coins, but I can distinguish the color and shade differences looking at them all next to each other.
Collector of randomness. Photographer at PCGS. Lover of Harry Potter.
Unfortunately, there are no "blue" coins in the chart.
@SiriusBlack Just a suggestion. Since color is so important with copper, you might wish to see if gold or nickel alloy coins might interest you almost as much as copper. If you stick with your favorite series, you might wish to only buy coins in slabs. The Unc's have a color on the label.
I don't collect Indians but I think I remember hearing they don't designate color on Indians? Maybe flyers?
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
I think you are incorrect. Take a look on eBay.
I was going to joke there was no purple, pink or green.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Must have been flyers I was thinking of.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
@Insider2 You make a good point about buying already slabbed coins which is what I will probably stick to. My colorblindness combined with being very new to coins and not having experience in grading seems like a disaster waiting to happen with raw coins!
Collector of randomness. Photographer at PCGS. Lover of Harry Potter.
If you keep posting coins here you will start to notice the spots and any other problems real quick because everyone will point them out to you
I know it sounds crazy but when I really look at a coin I like I try to find all the imperfections and problems instead of focusing on what I like about the coin. It's kind of like buying a used car or a house, try to find all the problems before buying so you know what you are getting and can pay the right price for the condition. Asking for other peoples opinions who are knowledgeable or buying graded coins is like using a home inspector or taking a used car to a mechanic before you buy.
@1Mike1 love the chart.
Flying Eagles (1856-1858) and early Indian cents (1859-1864) were made with copper nickel so they do not designate color. These coins look gold to tan in color. In 1864, they changed the composition to bronze copper, which start out as red and then tone to red brown to brown (or other colors such as magenta, blue, etc., depending on how they are stored). So from 1864 to current, pennies are designated with R or RB or BN.
https://thepennylady.com/
@hchcoin That makes sense, learn to see the problems rather than being blinded to them by pretty colors.
@ThePennyLady I didn’t realize that only the bronze copper can change color so much.
Collector of randomness. Photographer at PCGS. Lover of Harry Potter.
Dr. William Sheldon, who wrote “Penny Whimsey,” wrote about “autumn leaves” colors that could occur in copper. The small cents were made of bronze, but the same idea applies. Not all copper colors are good, however. Some, like green and black, are less desirable.
Unless it is that prized, "green" patina often found on the entire surface of an ancient bronze coin that many admire.
Have you ever tried EnChroma? I don't know if it would work on subtle shades, but in the larger picture, it seems life changing when you see people try them out, so it must work on some level...
Thank you for the info. I remembered reading it but could not recall the details/dates.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
The 1908 Indian cent shown in the photo is a very ordinary coin. In my opinion it merits no premium for toning.
I attempted to play the toning game with Indian cents (and some silver coins as well) back about fifteen years ago. Then I went to the Pittsburgh ANA show in 2004 to try to sell some of my toned coins. To say that the attitude toward the coins changed when the dealers were buying versus selling is an understatement. My coins were, in the words of one of the dealers, "not what I am looking for".
My paying premiums for toned coins quickly came to an end after my selling experiences at that show.
Like everything else in collecting today, the only real demand is for the absolute best items. Anything "ordinary" is dead or soon will be.
Unless the coin is truly exceptional the premium you should pay for toning is zero.
IMO, the "blue" Indian cent is not "ordinary!" Perhaps if it was brown...
I'm sorry to read of your "TYPICAL" experience when selling your coins. That's certainly has formed your personal opinion. Perhaps you should do a little research on toning and prices as they are today. Toning is probably a lot more popular now than when you had your bad experience. That way your opinion might carry some weight - at least to me.
PS Note this is my 6666 Post so I want to be in character.
since you admit you are "colorblind" it makes no sense to me whatsoever that you would consider tone in any equation when you are buying coins. to that end it will be very difficult for you to make clear, honest assessments on what the coins you're looking at are worth paying for. if I was you I would find help from someone that you have known long-term, that has no reason to exploit you and in who's judgment you can rely implicitly. further, don't trust ANY DEALER TO HELP YOU MAKE THESE EXPENSIVE CHOICES, you shouldn't even trust any of us here.
in short, find someone who loves you to help you or you may live to regret what you do.
@BackroadJunkie I actually do have enchroma glasses! They’re wonderful, but they are dark and only useful for outdoors as sunglasses. I do love wearing them though!
@keets I’m not colorblind to the point that I only see black and white colors, I do see color, but I don’t always see it indentical to you. I can’t see the red as easily on some RD and RB coins, but I can still see the color changes and patterns on the coins. I spent quite a while on @ThePennyLady website looking at all of her coins and it was extremely helpful. I could see the coloring on the majority of the coins.
As you said though, you’re absolutely right, I wouldn’t pay a premium for an RD coin simply because the slab said it was if I couldn’t see and enjoy the colors. I’d definitely stick to those coins where I can see the toning and appreciate/enjoy it.
I don’t want to buy these to flip someday as an investment, I want to buy them because I enjoy looking at them. That said, of course I want to make smart decisions and maintaining or increasing in value would naturally be a plus! Hence me coming to you fine people to ask questions and learn!
I get what @291fifth is saying and appreciate his taking the time to reply to me here. I’ll definitely keep it in mind, but at the end of the day, I want to collect coins that I like for myself. Maybe high grade white no toned Roosevelt’s are a better investment for resale later, and I see a lot of people here that love them but to me, they’re boring looking and I wouldn’t enjoy collecting them nearly as much as the toned variations in 1 cent pieces.
Collector of randomness. Photographer at PCGS. Lover of Harry Potter.
They do make indoor glasses.
When I did my research on them, I was surprised at how color blindness (and the glasses) worked. I was just curious if you could still see subtle color shifts...
I had no idea they make indoor. They didn’t when I got my sunglasses style! I must investigate!!
Collector of randomness. Photographer at PCGS. Lover of Harry Potter.
It is strange how colorblindness works. Sometimes I can see a tone, sometimes not.
Collector of randomness. Photographer at PCGS. Lover of Harry Potter.