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One of life's big mysteries, MS-70.
Insider2
Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
I just graded a box of twenty 2018 coins, SE and modern Issue Silver Commemorative dollars. I used a 7X hand lens and a stereo scope set at low power (7X). Nineteen coins were MS-70's. Nineteen out of twenty and I'm looking for marks. I didn't even see one lint mark either. How does this happen? How can the mint strike large silver coins, pack 'em, ship 'em, the collector ships them, they are removed from capsules and are PERFECT! I can say there is a big difference from the coins in monster box tubes yet...wow. I'm worried about loosing my deserved reputation for tough grading. 
I need to go home and beat the dog!
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I think the market has driven the Mint to that level. Once they achieved "perfection" at some non-zero rate, people learned to RETURN anything that wasn't perfect. So to keep in business, they probably implemented some rather extreme "quality control" measures?
And it may be why many (most?) collectors with some experience have turned their backs on "Moderns". There's just no point in trying to pick one over another! Even the difference between 69 and 70 isn't all that exciting. More fun to look for an XF buffalo that is just a little nicer than its peers...Or a Morgan with a little better color....Or a large cent with a little less corrosion than others like it....
with automation, there's no reason for the mint not to produce mostly 70 quality coins.
But these things are coming from TV buyers. They probably don't know the other coins (XF Buffalo) exist!
I remember when MS70 was a theoretical grade for a coin that was absolutely perfect and that such a coin didn't exist.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
That was probably back when we had real standards that didn't evolve or did that period ever really exist?
Call me old fashioned, but MS70 = no charm. If all coins were MS70, I would never have developed an interest in the hobby.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Interesting !!!
19 out of 20? Wow... that is indeed an unusual submission. But please don't beat the dog...
Cheers, RickO
@cameonut2011 ...the hobby has never had real standards...There are general categories with no hard boundaries.... the final judgement is a refined opinion. Someday, we may get real standards... that would be great - but then, what would we have to debate??
Where is Mister E when I need him ?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
keeps the aftermarket prices down for modern 69's so I'm okay with the grade, for that reason.
Nope, At least one major TPGS refused to use the grade of MS-70 in the late 90's, well after standards had slipped.
Neat. I didn't remember that. Which one? I do remember when NGC wouldn't even consider moderns though. I'll get hate for this, but I think that was the right approach so as to avoid artificial rarity.
Well my last 9 coins sent to PCGS ALL 69s. Not one (70) so you have better luck than me. I wish you worked in the grading room at PCGS.
I should of just gave in and Purchased them all from MCM Apmex L&C etc. all at Premium costs.
AFAIK, NGC was the last service to buckle in. It is good they eventually followed the others because there really are perfect coins made if we don't include the edge as many would then not make the grade.
BTW, a perfect coin for me has no nicks, no spots, no hairlines, no luster breaks (rub), and no mint made inclusions at whatever power of magnification I wish to use, That's what is so amazing to me, how do so many
MS/PR-70 coins exist by my standards?
Lay off the dog!
I remember when MS65 was tops.
bob
I think that there might be few MS-70 (perfect) American Silver Eagles out there. The mint does a great job of avoiding marks on those coins. I've seen it from the pieces I have purchased to give out as prizes at our club meetings.
Maybe we are too paranoid about all the things that can "damage" coins, it usually takes a lot of mishandling to impair a coin; I see it pervasively in US society, every one wants to ensure safety in fear of something terrible happening....
I grew up with MS-65 the top grade. When I became a grader at NGC it was drummed into my head that there were still five grades above MS-65!
And there always have been grades above MS-65. About the only people who don't believe that are a few of the EAC graders. For some of them, MS-60 is too high for anything.
19 out of 20 MS70 is pretty amazing. What did that 20th coin grade? And at what point do you bring the grade down to a MS69? A spot? A hairline scratch? I really should get out my magnifier and exam those 69's vs 70's closer and see if I can pick out the differences!
For Proof coins, sometimes it's tiny hole in the mirrored fields that was in the die when the piece was made.
When I grew up, it was drummed into my head that the line between AU and UNC was a hard one. I look at grades on Capped Bust halves and quarters, and am unsure what the rules are.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Princess and the pea.
@Insider2 This may seem unfair, but if coins were graded without respect to their being PR or MS, what would you now grade those coins?
C'mon, a little friction never hurt a 200 year old coin !
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By your standards, how do any exist at all? At any magnification level? Even 20-30x? 50x? 100x?
Any defect drops the coin from a 70 for me. One coin had a tiny white spot in the field +69. Sure, since no TPGS guarantees MS-70 SE anymore due to spotting, I could have cheated and made the customer happy - NOT!>
@BillJones said: "And there always have been grades above MS-65."
Technically, you are correct. Before MS-66, 67, 68, and 69 were included in an expanded grading scale, there was only MS-60, MS-65, and one grade above 65. It was MS-70.
@BillJones said: "For Proof coins, sometimes it's tiny hole in the mirrored fields that was in the die when the piece was made."
I confess to never having seen one of these tiny holes in the field. I have seen tiny lint marks and tiny holes in the frosted relief design of Proofs. Additionally, I find we grade more MS coins 70 than Proofs. Many proofs have very tiny smudges and stains or a single hairline.
@OldIndianNutKase said: "@Insider2 This may seem unfair, but if coins were graded without respect to their being PR or MS, what would you now grade those coins?"
Seems like a worthy honest question but I may not understand it. I guess I would grade a perfect coin 70 as it would not matter how it was produced. put one tiny defect on it and it would grade 69. BTW, some TPGS's allow for one or two tiny mint-made imperfections to be on a coin they grad 70. Additionally, many SE are graded by naked eye alone. NOT BY ME. So I'll guarantee I can easily find tons of SE from each major TPGS that are not 70's. Additionally, we pay the light bill with all the fools that send NGC and PCGS 69's hoping for an upgrade to a 70! LOL.
Read my post. 70's are common for some coins. So far, 95% of the WW-1 Pr's and MS coins have been 70's Go figure.
As this stuff about magnification is simple to test for yourself. If I cannot find a defect on a coin at 7X using my stereoscope and fluorescent light, one will not show up if I crank up the power to 40X.
Lol..... the first thing is the command of the English language. It’s “lose” not “loose” the second thing is it’s “Tito’s” not “Grey Goose”- Cheers Coin nerds!!!!
Yes, with modern manufacturing techniques this should be the norm.
I'm a looser so I can tell another when I read a post. I know folks who would only use Tito's to disinfect a kitchen countertop or their toilet bowl.
PS @Ezmoney, there are some semi-literate folks around here making more money than you can even dream of in spite of your command of the language and wanna-be "handle."
Perhaps you'll learn to overlook improper English one day and take something useful away from the writer's comments. You can start with this post. 
We’re capable of manufacturing objects the size of coins to tolerances that are orders of magnitude better than what graders put into 70 holders. It’s just a matter of practicality and cost.
It’s slightly absurd, really, to use the same arbitrary grading scale for coins made from impure, hand-rolled planchets and hand-tooled punches to those made with CNC machines and modern materials. Coin-making technology has evolved much further than we realize sometimes.