Do you think this bidder is a shill?
koynekwest
Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭
All these by the same bidder with 95% activity with our friends at GSC. The auction still has six days to go so I'm sure the he (or more likely they) are nowhere near done.
Here's the item number in case anyone cares to track it- 292585849321
44(8765) $140.00 31 May 2018 at 4:18:43AM PDT
44(8765) $135.00 31 May 2018 at 4:18:40AM PDT
44(8765) $130.00 31 May 2018 at 4:18:38AM PDT
44(8765) $125.00 31 May 2018 at 4:18:34AM PDT
44(8765) $120.00 31 May 2018 at 4:18:32AM PDT
44(8765) $115.00 31 May 2018 at 4:18:31AM PDT
44(8765) $110.00 31 May 2018 at 4:18:27AM PDT
44(8765) $105.00 31 May 2018 at 4:18:25AM PDT
44(8765) $100.00 31 May 2018 at 4:18:23AM PDT
44(8765) $98.00 31 May 2018 at 4:18:22AM PDT
44(8765) $96.00 31 May 2018 at 4:18:20AM PDT
44(8765) $94.00 31 May 2018 at 4:18:19AM PDT
44(8765) $92.00 31 May 2018 at 4:18:17AM PDT
44(8765) $90.00 31 May 2018 at 4:18:15AM PDT
44(8765) $88.00 31 May 2018 at 4:18:13AM PDT
44(8765) $86.00 31 May 2018 at 4:18:12AM PDT
44(8765) $84.00 31 May 2018 at 4:18:10AM PDT
44(8765) $82.00 31 May 2018 at 4:18:09AM PDT
44(8765) $80.00 31 May 2018 at 4:18:07AM PDT
44(8765) $78.00 31 May 2018 at 4:18:06AM PDT
44(8765) $76.00 31 May 2018 at 4:18:04AM PDT
44(8765) $74.00 31 May 2018 at 4:18:03AM PDT
Comments
Absolutely....A buyer with over 8,000 f.b., would never bid like that. That's my guess.
Never worry about a shill as it is a waste of your time.
You set the price, not the shill.
I wouldn't think of bidding on something like this, especially from this seller. Unless I could cherrypick him, that is.
i never place one single bid on no reserve auctions until last few seconds on something I want, no reason to bid up the price before that. with that high of a feedback number, this person knows better
Don't even go there @koynekwest....unless you have 36 hrs to your day
Only thing it could be unless another seen it and bid till they gave up. are you highest
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
I do crazy stuff like this sometimes. When I do, I usually use a bid that ends in .99. I am trying to either find out the high bidder's ceiling without going over it, or just trying to run up the cost so the other guy doesn't get a bargain. If it is with a seller I have bid with a lot lately, I am also hoping to raise suspicion and demoralize the other bidder(s) so that they might not bother competing for the next listing.
Not sure any of this works, but I am playing around with some tactics. More and more eBay is a tactical endeavor.
This happens over and over with this seller. And every one has a very high activity with them, too.
Like the others have said, I sure as hell wouldn't worry much about it.
I don't. Since the legitimacy of this seller was recently discussed I thought I'd just point it out.
It can definitely pay to scrutinize bid histories.
If the high bidder had his name stacked twice or three times.
I may throw down a few bids to help said high bidder spend some money.
I just move on when I see a bid history such as this.... Cheers, RickO
This type of stuff is always a stain on eBay. Frustrating when you find something you would like to acquire and it is bid up by an obvious shill. As the OP mentioned best to avoid these sellers as I think they are more likely to misrepresent items etc.
One thing I have found is that sellers who have auctions with '15 Watching' where as identical items through other sellers do not have anyone watching are questionable. The sellers who items have a bunch of 'users' watching are more likely to have shill bidders...the shills are the ones watching in order to make the item seem more desirable. Just an observation with no hard data to back it up...
K
I agree with your approach! That being said, I have seen eBay bidders keep clicking the bid button (which just bids one single increment each time) when the bid they just entered was already exceeded. A bidder might continue clicking that button until they've revealed the high bidder's bid, so that they know what level they need to bid at when there's just seconds to go.
For me, I set the price as others have said.. But, if I get a "second chance offer" on the auction through Ebay, I think that I was probably shilled and I do not take the offer..This has happened to me a couple of times...
I think the most telling point here might be the 95% activity with this seller.
Says a lot. Looks like it now, but willing to give the benefit of a doubt before passing final judgement.
It may or may not be a shill. The really established shill bidders (e.g. GSC, centsles) use multiple shill bidders and alternate the bids between those bidders. They also stagger the bid times so you wouldn't see something so blatantly funny looking as in the OP's post. One thing I have noticed with GSC is that the bids start almost immediately after the listing begins, no matter the time of day. So you can see multiple bids on a listing at all hours of the night through the early morning. They clearly have some software they use that places the bids (or have an army of cheap labor in India placing the bids on the other side of the world).
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
I detest shill bidding, but in many cases it is just the seller's way of setting a retail price he/she had in mind in the first place. Don't overpay and then you can't say you were ripped off. It is true that without the shill bids you might have got the item for less, but without the shill bids the seller would not have listed the item with such a low starting price.
No one can ever force you to pay more than you are willing to pay, shill or no shill.
This!!
That seller is so ripe to be picked, but their ethics are, and have been for a long time, excessively questionable.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
disagree. You set your max bid, a shill causes you to reach it or to loose the auction. You would have bought the coin cheaper without the shill driving up your price.
But, a shill bid can force the winner to pay more than he would have without the shill. Don't forget, shill bids drive the price up. This includes protective, automatic maximum bids.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Shill bidding is wrong, even illegal in many states. BUT, the main point - that shill bidding shouldn't cost you money - is true. As has already been pointed out, if the shill bidding replaces a reserve or higher starting bid, it really isn't costing you anything at all. It is deceiving you into thinking you could get a bargain that really isn't available, but it is (in that case) no different than opening the bidding higher.
Shill bidding will cost you money if it pushes you closer to your max bid. It will cost you the coin you want if the shill bid exceeds your maximum bid. Shill bids drive up the price that the winning bidder actually pays. If you are that winning bidder then the shill bid(s) cost you extra money.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Again, not as spelled out above. If I start an auction at $1 for an item I refuse to sell for less than $50 but instead of using a reserve I shill it up to $49, you pay $50. That is NO different than my using a $50 reserve or starting the bidding at $50.
People do it because they want YOU to get caught up in "winning" and know that some people wouldn't start the bidding at $50 but want to try and get a bargain at $1. But as someone above said, YOU set the price. IF you absolutely will not pay more than $40, then let them shill up to $41 and keep the coin. It's only if you get caught up in "winning" and end up bidding more than your intended max would it cost you any money.
As with any auction, one should ignore the other bidders, set one's max at a predetermined level and not get caught up in the action, or pay attention to the competition to validate value, etc. A single bid can be a protective bid or a shill bid. As an innocent participant, assume (whether true or not) that the process is meant to manipulate you. Easier said than done tho, based on personal failures in this regard.
And without the shill bid you might get the coin for less than your $40 max bid. Like I said, shill bidding will cost you money if it pushes you closer to your max bid. If the shill bid exceeds your $40 max bid, then it cost you the coin.
YOU set your max bid, not the price. Shill bidders set the minimum the item will sell for. This ends up increasing the price and costing the winner money.
How can you not see that a winner pays more when there are competing bids? Doesn't matter if they are shill bids or legit bids. If you win at or below your max bid, competing bidders still caused you to pay more. If they didn't then shill bidding would not be illegal.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Even by setting a max bid a shill bid that automatically increases your bid costs you money if you win the auction. On ebay, shill bids are used primarily to increase automatic bidding not live, emotional bidding. While protected by a max bid, an auction winner still lost money if a shill drove his winning price higher.
It's simple: You set a max bid of $40, bidding is nearing end and you are winning at $35. Shill bidder steps in and bids $39, driving your bid to $40. Auction ends with you winning at $40. Shill bidder just cost you $5.
While setting a max bid protects you from paying more than you want to pay, shill bidders that drive up the winning bid will cause the winner to pay more than he should have. This is why shill bidding is illegal.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Apples amd oranges. You are assuming that without the shill process that coin might sell for a bargain. But without the shill the dealer might not list it at a low starting price. A shill bidder is just another way for a seller to set a reserve price.
If a coin has a reserve price and you are the high bidder but below the reserve, you don't get the coin. The shill process replaces this so that the high bid is never below the dealers "reserve".
I hate the process but that is the reality of it.
A reserve price does not increase as the bids increase. It is fixed and remains fixed. Bidders also know they have to meet a FIXED reserve ("reserve not met"). Bidders do not know they are competing with a shill bidder. Apples and oranges.
Any seller who shills to set a reserve price is lying to himself and his bidders.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Yes
I don’t worry about shills. Ebay - just bid w AS and enter my bid. Might enter something like Bluesheet and check near auc end c if want increase, hold, or cancel snipe.
Once I feel likely seller has shills don’t bid on their stuff.
an your $40 max bid. Like I said, shill bidding will cost you money if it pushes you closer to your max bid. If the shill bid exceeds your $40 max bid, then it cost you the coin.
Again, you are simply not listening. Sure, someone could shill you to your max. But only if you let them.
Here's a poll.
In which of these situations do you pay more?
The answer is clearly and unequivocally #4.
I am NOT defending shill bidding or advocating for it. BUT, it only costs you money if you get caught up in auction fever. If your max is $60, you will never get bid up over $60. And, again, the SHILL BIDDING really just functions as a hidden (and illegal in NY) reserve. Now, you can argue that a reserve makes you pay more than no reserve, and it might. But the shill bidding is just the reserve - illegal though it may be.
Now, if you want to tell me that a reserve makes you pay more and that a higher starting bid makes you pay more...sure. But you don't really have an inalienable right to pay less than the minimum that a seller will accept. Now, I NEVER SHILL. I NEVER use reserves. But I also NEVER start the bidding at less than the number I will accept as the sales price.
[And, by the way, if anyone ever emails me and offers to buy it if it doesn't sell at auction, I always politely reply that they can have it for 20% more than the starting bid if it doesn't sell. This makes many of them angry. LOL. But they don't seem to understand that encouraging people NOT to bid in my auctions costs ME money.
]
You miss the point. Reserves are fixed, shill bids are limited only by the shill's desire to drive the price even higher. And if he stops somewhere below your winning, automatic bid, he cost you money. While determining the max you will pay for a coin and placing a max, hidden bid is a protective measure, there is no protection from a shill that causes you to spend more than you would have without the shill.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Again, I acknowledged that you could get caught up in the game. The previous commenter (before me) mentioned that shill bids acted the same as a reserve. I concurred. I still do. You can easily avoid the entire shill game by bidding late when the shill doesn't have time to come in and play around. The shill only costs you money if you let him/her by placing a bid higher than you want to play early enough for someone to play games. That's all the previous commenter and I were saying. It is very easy to avoid any fiscal damage from shilling which is why I never even look to see if it is going on.
[Again, it is illegal in NY and I am NOT in favor of shill bidding. It is simply one of those things not worth worrying about.]
You cannot avoid fiscal damage from a shill who drives the price up to your winning, automatic maximum bid. He cost you money and did so without you getting caught up in "auction fever." You don't have to be an emotional bidder that is caught up in the bidding to lose money because of shill bidding.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Again, not if you place your bid late. There is no time for the shill to come in and play around. If the shill, shilled prior to your bid, it's just a hidden reserve.
Again, I'm not defending or advocating shilling. I'm just suggesting that it is not worth worrying about since it is easy enough to avoid.
[LOL. Of course, I've spent more time defending not worrying about it than it would have taken to actually worry about it..]
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I think that all the good guys agree that shill bidding is bad, costs bidders money, and should be illegal. It's just that it's tough to impossible to catch in its subtler forms, so one just has to assume that it may be in play, focus on one's own max bid and be happy with a win.
All suspicions of shill bidding should be reported to ebay. They will sort it out, they take is serious because of the liability they face.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
No offense, but
I doubt ebay would lift a finger unless airtight proof was presented to them on a silver platter, and even then I am not so sure.
eBay would do something if it could be proven. The problem is it is pretty hard to prove. I've never entered that many consecutive bids, but I have entered more than a couple trying to see where the current high bid was. So, the pattern of bidding itself isn't DEFINITIVE proof. eBay buyers tend to also be loyal to a few trusted sellers. So even someone doing that repeatedly for the same seller isn't by itself DEFINITIVE. Taken together, it is certainly more indicative of a pattern and they may do something. But what...?
Best case scenario: eBay suspends the shill bidder and maybe the original seller. Result: shill bidder opens a new account and keeps right on going. Original seller serves his suspension and is more careful with his shills next time.
Especially against a huge revenue maker like GSC. Shilling is supposed to be against the ebay's own rules but it remains rampant there.
Good points derryb, As a rule I seldom place my highest bid early. Many times I place a token bid on pieces that interest me or just to see what they end up selling for.