I really dislike NGC's prong holders now (NGC decision posted)

lkeigwin · June 17, 2011 2:04AM

How disappointing. Just arrived from the Long Beach auction. I detected a slight nick but didn't think it would be that bad, given NGC's AU58 grade.
Lance.

Staircoins · June 17, 2011 2:10AM

Ouch! Cringe-worthy, that is.

robec · June 17, 2011 2:14AM

That's almost a crime to hide a ding like that with a prong. They could have rotated the coin to show the ding...... or not grade it at all.

19Lyds · June 17, 2011 2:14AM

A "slight" nick?

IMO, NGC should have no graded that coin due to the rim "damage".

If I were you, I'd be on the horn right now stalking to NGC about getting your money back or at least some compensation from them.

USMoneylover · June 17, 2011 2:15AM

I agree...looking at the auction photos the prong holder really covers up that ding, which is a bad news for an unsuspecting owner. Otherwise that coin is a beauty.

keyman64 · June 17, 2011 2:25AM

HOLY COW! These boards have always talked about the prongs hiding things but no one has ever really come forward with a blatant example...that I know of...Beautiful coin otherwise. I would get in touch with Heritage and NGC. I would hope Heritage would allow you to return it with the cracked out holder but would understand if they did not. Yikes. Maybe they will have some pull with NGC? You should also post this on the US Coin Forum ATS. It would serve as a good education for some. Yikes! Good luck Lance and please let us know what happens.

Jesh · June 17, 2011 2:27AM

Holy Cow. Looks like someone took a chunk out of it there. That should have been rotated to show it for sure.

-1 to prongs

lkeigwin · June 17, 2011 2:31AM

I'm pretty bummed about it. I've been looking for this variety for a long time. Petite head, large letters, N4. Pretty scarce.

I bought it for my Dansco album so it was cracked out, as is obvious from the images. The general rule is once you crack it, all bets are off. I am probably SOL, but I'll give NGC a call and see what they say.
Lance.

Staircoins · June 17, 2011 2:36AM

When you call them, it couldn't hurt to be prepared to send them images of the coin both in and out of the holder. There are enough obvious diagnostics to prove beyond a doubt that it's the same coin.

Good luck!

TheBigB · June 17, 2011 2:39AM

Is that nick really enough to place the coin in a genuine holder?

I am curious as there are few specifics in my grading books on this issue.

ttown · June 17, 2011 2:39AM

Looks like you can get a sticker for it now since it will appear so PQ....

19Lyds · June 17, 2011 2:58AM

<< Is that nick really enough to place the coin in a genuine holder?

I am curious as there are few specifics in my grading books on this issue. >>

Nick?

You see it yet still refer to it as a Nick?

Thats a gouge. It's not even a hit from some other coin but a gouge from something. I would be surprised if the coin wasn't even round due to that gouge.

Zoins · June 17, 2011 3:01AM

<< Is that nick really enough to place the coin in a genuine holder? >>

As opposed to an AU58?

I would lean to a genuine holder at our hosts.

Of course, another option is to get it slabbed by ATS again....

truthteller · June 17, 2011 3:09AM

That would "no grade" next time at the services.

TRUTH

Zoins · June 17, 2011 3:16AM

NGC takes photos/scans of all the coins they grade. Do they have photos/scans before slabbing so they know they graded it like this?

Staircoins · June 17, 2011 3:19AM

Ignoring the rim problem --- Is the coin really a 58, given the hits on the chin and cheek? Perhaps a 55 would be more in order.

Just sayin'.

keyman64 · June 17, 2011 3:38AM

If you are a frequent/repeat customer of Heritage...I think you are...you should call them as well. They have more leverage! Maybe something like this would initiate a phone call from Heritage to NGC forcing NGC to make it right? All Heritage would have to say is something like...maybe we should NOT ALLOW any more NGC Prong Holders in our Auctions if you as a company are hiding things like this from our customers(bidders). That would get their attention REALLY REALLY REALLY QUICK! Could you imagine the value of NGC Prong Holder Coins just plumeting because they are NOT ALLOWED at big respected auction houses any more?....or if the Auction Houses started to add a disclaimer to all prong holder auctions that went like: "Due to the holder this coin is in, we cannot guarantee that a PROBLEM is not hidden under the prongs. Please bid with caution, no returns accepted."

Call Heritage!

jmcu12 · June 17, 2011 3:43AM

lkeigwin - I am sorry for your loss - please send the coin to me and I will make sure you never have to lay eyes on it again -

I feel the pain but in general I think the prongs are a good thing - I think the biggest gripe (if you will) is that NGC did not note it on the holder. So really the issue should be with NGC not their holder. JMO.

But BTW, I really mean it, send the coin to me, it would look fantastic in my 7070 type set!

johnny9434 · June 17, 2011 3:43AM

<< That's almost a crime to hide a ding like that with a prong. They could have rotated the coin to show the ding...... or not grade it at all. >>

that is a toss up. that ding is ummm something else

jedm · June 17, 2011 3:45AM

Just my humble opinion, but I really like the coin. That rim nick is not especially unsightly to me. The petite head large letters is a tough coin, and in AU-58 it would be a welcome addition to my large cent collection. I'm guessing that the other posters are over reacting just a wee bit? Or else I am just totally wrong, which could very easily be the case also... Cheer up!

ctf_error_coins · June 17, 2011 3:48AM

I have always hated the prongs because photography of coins with the prongs is hideous. Absolutely a horrible decision to cover up part of the coin.

Now we find that defects can be covered with those obstructive prongs.

keyman64 · June 17, 2011 3:48AM

In case you still want to keep the coin due to the variety...maybe Heritage would be willing to give you half of your money back...or whatever was fair?

Tiny · June 17, 2011 3:49AM

Another reasaon I do not like the tab holders. You have got to really look close
to see the ding in the picture and it should not be that way. Hope you can get
some satisfaction from either NGC or HA.

PerryHall · June 17, 2011 3:49AM

<< Is that nick really enough to place the coin in a genuine holder? >>

No!!! I've seen similar nicks on PCGS graded coins. I can't believe the hysteria being expressed over this nick. Just think of it as a bag mark that's not in a prime focal area of the coin.

mdwoods · June 17, 2011 3:51AM

It's really not that bad, especially considering it's a circulated coin. I don't think the prong hide the defect anymore than the old style holder would have.

keyman64 · June 17, 2011 3:52AM

<< Another reasaon I do not like the tab holders. You have got to really look close
to see the ding in the picture and it should not be that way. Hope you can get
some satisfaction from either NGC or HA.

>>

Yes you can see the hit in the Heritage Photo BUT the problem is ONLY HALF of the hit is visible...you cannot see that it goes all the way to the edge of the coin!

keyman64 · June 17, 2011 3:52AM

<< It's really not that bad, especially considering it's a circulated coin. I don't think the prong hide the defect anymore than the old style holder would have. >>

It hides HALF of the hit.

coinlieutenant · June 17, 2011 3:54AM

Rim nick on that coin isn't bad at all to me. To each their own though...and I am pretty picky.

TheBigB · June 17, 2011 3:55AM

I think there is a little hysteria here.

I don't think NGC deliberately hid the damage, a different department encapsulates the coins.

I think the pronged holders have advantages and disadvantages, here it didn't work.

I enjoy having one of my Saints in a pronged holder to see the edge.

Zoins · June 17, 2011 4:01AM

<< Due to the holder this coin is in, we cannot guarantee that a PROBLEM is not hidden under the prongs. Please bid with caution, no returns accepted. >>

Do they take returns after a coin is cracked out now?

mdwoods · June 17, 2011 4:03AM

<< 

<< It's really not that bad, especially considering it's a circulated coin. I don't think the prong hide the defect anymore than the old style holder would have. >>

It hides HALF of the hit. >>

An old style holder would hide half the hit too, only it would hide the whole rim instead of 4 small parts.

19Lyds · June 17, 2011 4:11AM

<< 

<< 

<< It's really not that bad, especially considering it's a circulated coin. I don't think the prong hide the defect anymore than the old style holder would have. >>

It hides HALF of the hit. >>

An old style holder would hide half the hit too, only it would hide the whole rim instead of 4 small parts. >>

I believe it would since the old style holders did not cover any of the rim. The coin was slipped into a straight hole.

Shamika · June 17, 2011 4:12AM

Personally, I don't think the nick is that offensive. But I agree the prong does hide it. It's very frustrating to recieve a coin from a large auction only to be disappointed.

LindeDad · June 17, 2011 4:15AM

Should of tried to just rotate the coin in the holder before cracking it out. Now your just up the creek and nobody knows where that paddle went.

roadrunner · June 17, 2011 4:18AM

NGC no doubt took that mark into account when assigning the grade. But I can understand the reasoning behind wanting a coin with no obvious distractions.
Imo the coin already has enough rubbing and facial hits to be only a lower end AU58. The rim cut would send it over the top for me.

I would suspect that the number of coins this might affect is extremely small in both quantity and dollar value. Would seem like a minor issue for NGC and/or Heritage to resolve
the customer's concern. Either that or we need to have a new company to start selling "prong insurance." Prong Insurance Guaranty Company? (PIG).

roadrunner

keyman64 · June 17, 2011 4:19AM

<< 

<< Due to the holder this coin is in, we cannot guarantee that a PROBLEM is not hidden under the prongs. Please bid with caution, no returns accepted. >>

Do they take returns after a coin is cracked out now? >>

I doubt it although there might be a strong case for this being an exception to the rule? Maybe any future purchases of prong holder coins could be hit a few times to dislodge the coin but not crack it out...then one could send them in for a small reholder fee. Of course you take some serious risks doing this.

I think ATS will eventually re-design their holder if they see an increase in the number of cases such as this.

Moldnut · June 17, 2011 4:27AM

<< 

<< Is that nick really enough to place the coin in a genuine holder? >>

No!!! I've seen similar nicks on PCGS graded coins. I can't believe the hysteria being expressed over this nick. Just think of it as a bag mark that's not in a prime focal area of the coin. >>

I've seen lots of early copper in PCGS holders with marks/hits just as bad as this.

mkman123 · June 17, 2011 4:31AM

Exactly what the last person said. I've seen pcgs coins with nicks worse than this.

19Lyds · June 17, 2011 4:42AM

Mistakes happen and this happens to be a mistake on the other guys part.

Look this coin up: Cert 15808758

1942-D Washington DDR with coin rolling marks on the entire reverse.

The entire point being, mistakes happen but when the mistake is pointed out to the TPG then corrective action needs to occur whether its acceptable to collectors or not.

illini420 · June 17, 2011 7:04AM

You wouldn't have seen it in a PCGS holder either. The PCGS inner gasket covers that much of the entire rim of the coin! Who knows what issues may be found on the rims and edges of our certified coins!

devious · June 17, 2011 7:13AM

I hate to say it, but it shows that as an obvious problem in the heritage coin auctions, even with the prongs. I would have been suspect having seen the link you posted, Lance. I would had probably not of cracked it out and sent it in for review after having received it and seeing it in person. You see the beginning of the gouge in HA's photos. You don't see the end. And it's best not to assume. Those prongs do hide these sort of issues, sadly.

I hope you have some recourse though. Best of luck in this matter!!!

19Lyds · June 17, 2011 7:41AM

<< That is not a ding but a CRATER. >>

Thank You. It's about time someone noticed the significance.

shorecoll · June 17, 2011 7:41AM

I've seen hits like that before, but never on a 58. That should at least drop it to 55 or maybe even lower...unless people think it's an MS that downgraded to 58 (I certainly don 't).

NewRose · June 17, 2011 7:48AM

I've never took into consideration the prongs could be hiding something that could effect the grade of the coin. Thanks for posting this, it has changed the way I see those holders, and what could be lurking under them.
And lastly, that is more than a nick on the edge of that coin.

TJM965 · June 17, 2011 9:29AM

Maybe if the picture was of actual size, the ding wouldn't look so big.

Raybo · June 17, 2011 12:02PM

The reverse is beautiful Lance!

You got ripped!

BillJones · June 17, 2011 12:07PM

Actually I've come to prefer coins in the NGC prongs holders. The larger the coin, the better, but the clear plastic is REALLY clear, and I've come to prefer the holder for NGC coins.

coinman23885 · June 17, 2011 12:13PM

oops

coinman23885 · June 17, 2011 12:17PM

<< I'm pretty bummed about it. I've been looking for this variety for a long time. Petite head, large letters, N4. Pretty scarce.

I bought it for my Dansco album so it was cracked out, as is obvious from the images. The general rule is once you crack it, all bets are off. I am probably SOL, but I'll give NGC a call and see what they say.
Lance. >>

I could detect the damage in the Heritage photo; you shouldn't have cracked it out. I think you are out of luck on this one.

P.S. I hope it works out for the OP though.

coinman23885 · June 17, 2011 12:22PM

<< If you are a frequent/repeat customer of Heritage...I think you are...you should call them as well. They have more leverage! Maybe something like this would initiate a phone call from Heritage to NGC forcing NGC to make it right? All Heritage would have to say is something like...maybe we should NOT ALLOW any more NGC Prong Holders in our Auctions if you as a company are hiding things like this from our customers(bidders). That would get their attention REALLY REALLY REALLY QUICK! Could you imagine the value of NGC Prong Holder Coins just plumeting because they are NOT ALLOWED at big respected auction houses any more?....or if the Auction Houses started to add a disclaimer to all prong holder auctions that went like: "Due to the holder this coin is in, we cannot guarantee that a PROBLEM is not hidden under the prongs. Please bid with caution, no returns accepted."

Call Heritage! >>

You're dreaming. While NGC was wrong in grading this coin, Heritage will not risk losing the thousands of nice, problem free coins that exist in the prong holders; Heritage would lose too much revenue since there are other viable venues.

TheBigB · June 17, 2011 1:01PM

I think all auction houses should ban slabbed coins, because they conceal things.

I really dislike NGC's prong holders now (NGC decision posted)

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