Are you going to avoid coins in Secure Plus Holders that don't have a plus?
AllCoinsRule
Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭✭
You know they're officially not high end for the grade 
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Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Dwayne F. Sessom
Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
At least with CAC you cannot be sure if the coin has been submitted to CAC or not... Whereas if a coin has the Secure shield but No plus you know the coin did not qualify.
I buy coins not the holder but somewhere in the back of my mind it will be known that this coin did not cut the mustard.
John
So no I would not avoid them, I don't really think that I am going to pay too much notice of them.
A 65 is still a 65, a 65 plus is still not a 66!
<< <i>
<< <i>I won't pay extra just for pluses, stickers, or whatever. >>
You're free to pass .... but I think most if not all dealers and collectors are going to ask for more.
I don't mind paying a PQ price for a PQ coin but I don't pay extra just because a slab has a cac sticker, a plus, or a star. The coin has to be worth the asking price irrespective of the label.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>The "+" on a grade means that they are a half grade higher. 64+ is really 64.5 get it? The "+" isn't a PQ designation. >>
IIRC the "+" means the coin is in the top 10-15% for the grade, not a half-grade.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
No offense, but that's a silly question!!
The answer I would expect from most folks here is, "Of course not!"
The SecurePlus is a major step in safeguarding our beautiful coins for posterity!!!
Every coin with a "+" failed to make the next grade. In fact, one way or another, every coin graded less than 70 did not "cut the mustard".
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>No, but I might avoid some that do
Great point! For me, the plus only even matters if it's a top pop coin, and that's only because of the registry implications. You still can evaluate coins based on merits and offer/pay what the coin is worth to you. I certainly wouldn't be inclined to buy a plus coin for more unless it cut MY mustard.
If you resubmitted a PQ65 for Secure Plus, and they gave it a 66 (no plus), would it bother you? Would it matter less/more if we were talking about 63/63+/64?
Empty Nest Collection
As kranky pointed out, the + is not a 1/2 step grade. Instead it DOES mean PQ........which in some respects means that it IS a 1/2 step grade and then some more.
The OP is right. Even though the new program calls for more precision than human graders can hope to deliver, non-plus (and non-CAC) coins will be considered dreck by the uninitiated collector.
<< <i>The "+" on a grade means that they are a half grade higher. 64+ is really 64.5 get it? The "+" isn't a PQ designation.
As kranky pointed out, the + is not a 1/2 step grade. Instead it DOES mean PQ........which in some respects means that it IS a 1/2 step grade and then some more.
From how I read it a 64.5 or 64.6 would not get a plus.
It would have to be a 64.7, 64.8 or 64.9 to get a plus so in reality it's not a half grade system.
IGWT's post points that out as well. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Is the 700-point scale the way PCGS has always (or at least recently) operated or is that new for the secure plus?
-Fred
Successful BST (me as buyer) with: Collectorcoins, PipestonePete, JasonRiffeRareCoins
<< <i>i will just avoid the guy who tries to sell those coins for a higher price than others >>
Some plus coins will deserve to sell for higher prices. Before the plus system and before CAC------- PQ coins sold for more. Did you avoid those sellers also? MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
for green bean.
Camelot
<< <i>Are you going to avoid coins in Secure Plus Holders that don't have a plus?
No offense, but that's a silly question!!
The answer I would expect from most folks here is, "Of course not!"
The SecurePlus is a major step in safeguarding our beautiful coins for posterity!!! >>
<< <i>i will just avoid the guy who tries to sell those coins for a higher price than others >>
If "than others" refers to coins (and not to other sellers), then you'll probably be avoiding almost all sellers.
<< <i>i will just avoid the guy who tries to sell those coins for a higher price than others >>
If they are higher end coins, they are likely to carry higher prices. The pieces I gravitate to are usually high end and I will probably end up paying more for them than their less illustrious fellows. It can be done, but I think it's tough to build a nice collection on the cheap.
I am going to buy them, as there is less chance that the coin has been messed with
as I suspect some messed with coins may pass visual inspection but not laser / computer evaluation
At first blush, the advent of the plus grade would seem to make it more difficult for dealers to ask for significant PQ premiums for coins that failed to attain the plus grade. I suspect that coins that failed and that are not required to be submitted under Secure Plus will be cracked by dealers and resubmitted under the regular programs to eliminate the “stigma” of not being high end and will again be touted as PQ by dealers, with the excuse that they just have not had time to submit the coin to Secure Plus.
An interesting exercise, that may well be worth the submission fee, is to submit a few of your coins that you think are high end and are worth a PQ premium (especially if you paid a premium for them) and see if they get a plus. It may be an educational experience that will reveal whether you and/or your dealer grade as PCGS does.
CG
A 64 is still a PCGS 64, a 65 is still a PCGS 65, and so on. And that counts for a lot IMO, as PCGS is the more secure (IMO) grading service.
A plus is a near miss at the next grade level. If I want a 65 qulity coin, and I agree with the grade, a PCGS 65 is still a PCGS 65. A plus would be a
bonus if I didn't have to pay too much more, and the coin "did it" for me. If I really wanted a 66 quality, but couldn't swing the asking prices of the
coins I wanted, I might consider 65+ coins (depending on the pricing) as it would be only a near miss, and not theoretically a whole grade down. Of
course, again, the coin would have to do it for me.
Actually, I would expect that PCGS could make a killing on Cross-overs if they let them in, as there may be just enough white plastic coins that would
qualify as only less a few tenths of a grade instead of a whole grade. As the market moves, I think a PCGS 65+ might garner more money than
many of the white plastic 66's, especially in series where the quality between the services is noticeable. Enough urban legend with that, and some
white plastic slabs would start to disappear quick, especially if the cost of Secure Plus moves towards the masses.
Just my two cents ...
Of course, it's still all about the coin, and not which holder it's in.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Where is the incentive to actually learn how to grade coins oneself?
I for one, am beginning to care less and less about buying coins at all, in light of todays cupidinous on the part of others and nonerudite collectors.
QN
Go to Early United States Coins - to order the New "Early United States Half Dollar Vol. 1 / 1794-1807" book or the 1st new Bust Quarter book!
Hoard the keys.
<< <i>This is the same exercise as was conducted when the 'bean' was introduced. Yes I will, No I won't, will it cost more, I will not pay more etc etc etc. Then everyone starts to pay more and laud the service. Soon it will be 'de rigeur' and prices will assigned and paid. All this extraneous fol de rol is no more than the insecure babbling of those who will eventually conform. Cheers, RickO >>
That was a damn well excuted volley. Well done Ricko, well done indeed...............MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>This is the same exercise as was conducted when the 'bean' was introduced. Yes I will, No I won't, will it cost more, I will not pay more etc etc etc. Then everyone starts to pay more and laud the service. Soon it will be 'de rigeur' and prices will assigned and paid. All this extraneous fol de rol is no more than the insecure babbling of those who will eventually conform. Cheers, RickO >>
That was a damn well excuted volley. Well done Ricko, well done indeed...............MJ >>
I will still rely on my own "baby blues".
I'm sure all the + and footballs are nice but there are still many
PQ coins out there just waiting to be cherrypicked.
Business as usual for me.
We would all like too but I bet none of us can.
They could be, but you do not know for sure.
Camelot
Ron
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I do not think the line is really clear as to what really is a + and what is not.
There is no way I am soley buying + coins. I think ther better deals are non + because from what I have seen, many of those should have made it.
<< <i>The bit about the xx7, xx8 or xx9 - that says to me that if a coin gets a 64.9, it's a 64+, not a 65. They don't round to the nearest whole number. I thought that you got a 65 if the coin was anywhere between 64.50 and 65.49.
Is the 700-point scale the way PCGS has always (or at least recently) operated or is that new for the secure plus?
-Fred >>
You make it sound like the plus designation is actually a deduction in the coin's final grade. Which makes sense if your reasoning is true....the way they use to grade coins.
I think a .3, .5, and .7 added to the grade would suffice. It would at least look more professional than a plus sign, IMO.
I would rather see a MS67.5 or MS65.7 than a MS 66+.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Even this statement is just a generality. To decide whether a coin is in the top 10-15% of its grade range means that you have compared that coin to every coin in that grade range...not very likely in the majority of the cases. Assuming you had 5 coins in a particular grade range......by definition the best coin can at most be in the top 20% of it's grade range. And the 2nd best coin in the top 40%. Yet in reality both coins could be technically 65.7 and 65.9 and worthy of a plus! Likewise the best single coin of say 20 coins in grade might be a 65.5......hence none of the coins deserve a plus yet that one coin is top 5% for grade.
A MS66.7 is only one tenth a point better than a MS66.6. Therefore this system doesn't necessarily denote coins 1/2 grade better or even 1/3 of a grade better. All it says is that your + coin is at least one tenth nicer than the others....and potentially up to .9 pts better then the worst example in that grade.
There will be numerous instances of coins that plussed the first time through yet if resubmitted raw under a different tier would not plus. I would suspect that coins grading MS65.7 for example could be seen as a 65.5 or 65.6 on another submittal. That slight inconsistency is inherent with any grading system.
roadrunner
It is human nature, regardless of how the coin looks.
We have already seen dealers who are "only" dealing in coins with "stickers" on their holders, as if other coins without stickers were the dreck of the market.
We all know that it isn't true, but, nevertheless - that is what happens in the real world.
So, in closing, I would hope that this move doesnt negatively affect the value or marketability of non plus graded coins......which would not be good for the average collector.
Looks like the new game in town will be regrades looking for a +.