Basic grading tips - Part l
coinguy1
Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
Disclaimer :
I have no doubt that much or all of this has been discussed previously and in some cases, in greater detail and in a more interesting fashion. But, I have received a lot of questions about pointers for examining and grading coins, so I'll try to address them in this format.
These are merely my opinions and they may differ from those of others.
I was originally planning on including several pointers in one post. However, I quickly realized that to do so would necessitate a post that would be so long as to guarantee that I would put numerous forum members into a deep and prolonged sleep. So, I have decided to break it up into 2 or three different segments. If this first one does not get me banned from the boards there will be a Part ll and so on. Ok, here we go......
LIGHTING
Different people prefer different types of lighting. I prefer using a small, high intensity "Tensor" lamp. I can sometimes see things (hairlines, etc.) on coins under this type of light that I can't see under a regular lamp with a 75 or 100 watt bulb. Some prefer halogen lamps and others prefer 75 or 100 watt lamps, like you might see at coin shows or auction lot viewings.
There is no right or wrong in this area. I would suggest experimenting with a few different types of light sources to get a feel for what you can see with each and what you are most comfortable with. Lighting can be a problem if it is not intense enough but conversely, if too intense, it can drown out colors that you might otherwise see and prevent you from getting a good look at a coin. Warning - do not look at coins in bright sunlight or under laser beams!
One thing I would stress - it is very important that whatever type of lighting you use, that it be consistent. If you go to a show and buy coins under different lighting conditions than you are used to, you might receive a very unpleasant surprise when you get home and examine your coins!
I would also caution you about lighting at coin auction viewings and shows - if the overhead lights are too bright they can drown out the light source that you are using and you might not be getting a good look at the coins. Be aware of the type of lighting, any time you are examining coins. You would be amazed how at different the same coin can look under different lighting conditions. Think about some of the coin images you see and how two different images of the same coin can look so different and you will get the picture.
MAGNIFICATION
BEFORE you put a glass to a coin, I would urge you to look at the coin for a few seconds without magnification - get a feel for what it looks like - look at the big picture.
Many very expensive coins get graded and bought and sold without the use of magnification. I rarely use a magnifying glass. The exceptions for myself, are for very small coins like Three Cent Silvers and gold Dollars, as well as the cases where I see something like a spot or flaw that I wish to examine more closely. When I do use magnification, it is most often a 5X and occasionally a 10X. I think it is important that when you use a glass, that in most cases, you be able to look at a good portion of the coin and not simply one tiny area in isolation. If you look at just one area you can get a distorted view.
If you use strong enough magnification, I am convinced that just about any classic coin can look bad! And, while you might be proud of yourself for finding 17 flaws on an MS66 coin, you might be doing yourself a big disservice by passing on it, flaws and all.
Whatever magnification you use should allow you to get a good look at the coin but not to lose sight (pun intended) of what the whole coin looks like. And remember, if you have decent eye sight and have been trained to examine a coin properly (more on that later) you wont need a glass in many cases. I PROMISE YOU - SOMEONE WHO KNOWS WHAT HE OR SHE IS DOING CAN SEE THINGS WITH THE NAKED EYE THAT YOU WONT EVEN SEE WITH A GLASS.
I am not against magnifiers but feel that they are sometimes overused and misused. Think about the whole/big picture and learn to overlook the little flaws (unless the coin is supposed to be an MS or PR 70) - oftentimes, they simply don't matter that much on a practical basis.
Please do not take what I have stated above to mean that I think it is ok to buy over graded coins or that imperfections and flaws don't matter with respect to grade. That is not the case at all. However, I see many non-experts engage in "micro-grading" where they focus so much on little, mostly inconsequential imperfections, that they lose perspective and can't see the forest for the trees, as the saying goes.
Edited to add - here is a link to part ll : Link
I have no doubt that much or all of this has been discussed previously and in some cases, in greater detail and in a more interesting fashion. But, I have received a lot of questions about pointers for examining and grading coins, so I'll try to address them in this format.
These are merely my opinions and they may differ from those of others.
I was originally planning on including several pointers in one post. However, I quickly realized that to do so would necessitate a post that would be so long as to guarantee that I would put numerous forum members into a deep and prolonged sleep. So, I have decided to break it up into 2 or three different segments. If this first one does not get me banned from the boards there will be a Part ll and so on. Ok, here we go......
LIGHTING
Different people prefer different types of lighting. I prefer using a small, high intensity "Tensor" lamp. I can sometimes see things (hairlines, etc.) on coins under this type of light that I can't see under a regular lamp with a 75 or 100 watt bulb. Some prefer halogen lamps and others prefer 75 or 100 watt lamps, like you might see at coin shows or auction lot viewings.
There is no right or wrong in this area. I would suggest experimenting with a few different types of light sources to get a feel for what you can see with each and what you are most comfortable with. Lighting can be a problem if it is not intense enough but conversely, if too intense, it can drown out colors that you might otherwise see and prevent you from getting a good look at a coin. Warning - do not look at coins in bright sunlight or under laser beams!
One thing I would stress - it is very important that whatever type of lighting you use, that it be consistent. If you go to a show and buy coins under different lighting conditions than you are used to, you might receive a very unpleasant surprise when you get home and examine your coins!
I would also caution you about lighting at coin auction viewings and shows - if the overhead lights are too bright they can drown out the light source that you are using and you might not be getting a good look at the coins. Be aware of the type of lighting, any time you are examining coins. You would be amazed how at different the same coin can look under different lighting conditions. Think about some of the coin images you see and how two different images of the same coin can look so different and you will get the picture.
MAGNIFICATION
BEFORE you put a glass to a coin, I would urge you to look at the coin for a few seconds without magnification - get a feel for what it looks like - look at the big picture.
Many very expensive coins get graded and bought and sold without the use of magnification. I rarely use a magnifying glass. The exceptions for myself, are for very small coins like Three Cent Silvers and gold Dollars, as well as the cases where I see something like a spot or flaw that I wish to examine more closely. When I do use magnification, it is most often a 5X and occasionally a 10X. I think it is important that when you use a glass, that in most cases, you be able to look at a good portion of the coin and not simply one tiny area in isolation. If you look at just one area you can get a distorted view.
If you use strong enough magnification, I am convinced that just about any classic coin can look bad! And, while you might be proud of yourself for finding 17 flaws on an MS66 coin, you might be doing yourself a big disservice by passing on it, flaws and all.
Whatever magnification you use should allow you to get a good look at the coin but not to lose sight (pun intended) of what the whole coin looks like. And remember, if you have decent eye sight and have been trained to examine a coin properly (more on that later) you wont need a glass in many cases. I PROMISE YOU - SOMEONE WHO KNOWS WHAT HE OR SHE IS DOING CAN SEE THINGS WITH THE NAKED EYE THAT YOU WONT EVEN SEE WITH A GLASS.
I am not against magnifiers but feel that they are sometimes overused and misused. Think about the whole/big picture and learn to overlook the little flaws (unless the coin is supposed to be an MS or PR 70) - oftentimes, they simply don't matter that much on a practical basis.
Please do not take what I have stated above to mean that I think it is ok to buy over graded coins or that imperfections and flaws don't matter with respect to grade. That is not the case at all. However, I see many non-experts engage in "micro-grading" where they focus so much on little, mostly inconsequential imperfections, that they lose perspective and can't see the forest for the trees, as the saying goes.
Edited to add - here is a link to part ll : Link
0
Comments
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
I look forward to "Part 2!"
"deep and prolonged sleep" I doubt that when talking on this subject!
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I agree totally about the magnification issue. Even in the advanced coin grading class on the first day they gave everyone a coin to grade and 2 minutes. Nearlly everyone sat there looking at the coin under magnification for the whole 2 minutes. I sat there smiling after my 30 second grading look without a loupe as everyone else micrograded. They then explained why not to do that and had everyone put the loupes away.
Cameron Kiefer
"France said this week they need more evidence to convince them Saddam is a threat. Yeah, last time France asked for more evidence it came rollin thru Paris with a German Flag on it." -Dave Letterman
Good work.
Clankeye
Thanks.
By the way, back to Cameo, Deep Cameo. What is the best type of lighting for determining the Cameo effect. Also, whenever I receive a coin, as almost all my coins come by mail, I do look at it as you have said, with just the eye, then I look at it with a low power glass, then I look at it under two different types of lighting, and lastly I look at it beside a window with natural light hitting it. That is just a personal procedure I have developed to look at newly arrived coins.
Paul
And as far as lighting, I find this very interesting, though I've heard it before. I'm beginning to like tensors or halogen lamps myself. I remember the first time I took advanced grading, Richard Nachbar was beside me using halogen, while I used the trusty 100-watter...But you can see a lot more with tensors and halogens I think...
IMHO,
John
Without taking into consideration that it may be blown up 30x the actual size. Even though I'm pretty picky with a glass I just thought I'd point this out.
Edit to add: As we get a little older we have to use a loupe more often if not all the time.
Mark, what should you do if you are at a local show with bad lighting. Does anyone have any suggestions for portable light sources you can carry with you. And would it be too tacky to pull it out (the light source that is) to look at coins at a show?
I look forward to part 2. Thanks
<< <i>I also see when images are posted here or on Ebay that are really blown up, and people will say "well I don't think it makes 65-66 because look at these marks". >>
<< <i>Without taking into consideration that it may be blown uo 30x the actual size. >>
Good point.
thanks again
This segways into a related issue: providing extra large, detailed jpegs of coins to potential buyers. Only very special coins hold up well in huge images where every trivial imperfection is exposed. For a small cent 600 x 600 pixels is deadly. I'm often torn between being brutally honest with images or being more realistic and showing a coin closer to it's real scale. More than once I've shared a PQ MS65RD Indian cent that, under good lighting and at super large scale, looked deceivingly mediocre.
Randy
I agree with Shylock. Too much magnification and detail can be a killer with small cents. There is nothing easier to do than turn a beautiful coin into an ugly picture.
At coin shows I take my own little battery powered small lamp just to get another perspective, since the lighting is usually terrible - the portable lamps have many flaws, but at least you get to see the coin under alternative lighting.
Tom
<< <i>should I just use reading glasses? >>
Reading glasses work very well for my tired, old eyes.
well thought out and well spoken.
i just came from the coin shop where i was looking at a bunch of kennedy's, even brought a bucket home to search. if i had my druthers i'd go to look at coins with my lights strapped to my back and leave my glass on the desk at home!!! it constantly amazes me that at shows, shops and auctions the lighting generally sucks.
what you said about magnification and finding flaws seems to be very appropriate with regards to the higher grades with moderns. every coin has flaws of some sort and whipping out the old 16X loupe would prevent me from buying most anything. i use a 6X mostly after a quick overall look-see. my eyes just can't focus on the steps, bands, hairlines and all the other nuances like they used to be able. age is such a curse!!!!!!
al h.
Your post pointed out to me that I definately micro-grade, that I've become "glass dependant", and over critical of the coin I am examining. I'm perhaps losing an overall appreciation for the coin as a result of this - losing "the big picture" as you say. It makes me wonder how many nice coins I've passed on over the years as a result of this. I'm always bringing new coins I've found to my local dealer who almost
*never* uses magnification when viewing them. I've almost felt slighted by this from time to time because I just couldn't understand how he could appreciate the coin without viewing it under magnification. Saying this also makes me aware that I'm probably focusing to much of my attention on the technical merits of the coin and discounting eye appeal.
My name is Andy, and I'm a loupe-aholic!
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
"I am going to be particularly interested when you address how to give proper proportion to certain defects on a coin when assessing it's total grade"
That discussion is currently scheduled for part 172 or 173, I can't remember which.
Zerbe, Zerbe, Zerbe... you asked :
"By the way, back to Cameo, Deep Cameo. What is the best type of lighting for determining the Cameo effect."
My comments about lighting in general should apply to your examination of Cameos and Deep Cameos - I'd recommend trying different types of lighting and you should quickly get a feel for which is best for your purposes. I like the procedure you mentioned for when you receive coins in the mail.
John - you said :
"But you can see a lot more with tensors and halogens I think"
I agree.
Stman - you said :
" I also see when images are posted here or on Ebay that are really blown up, and people will say "well I don't think it makes 65-66 because look at these marks".
Excellent point - that is one of the disadvantages of providing extra large images - the coins often get penalized unfairly.
FatMan - many people take their own portable lights to shows and auction viewings and I do not consider that practice to be tacky. It might be a bit uncomfortable initially but you can get used to it quickly and it is very worthwhile.
Paul/shylock - I agree about the large pics - it can be a doubled edged sword. You seem to do just fine though!
Tom - do whatever works for you. I am near sighted (and hard-headed - whoops that is supposed to be a secret!) and have been for many years. So are a lot of other graders I know.
Andy - you said (among other things) :
"My name is Andy, and I'm a loupe-aholic"
That is an excellent first step to take.
For a most meritorious series on coin grading . . On behalf of Forum members
we thank you for taking the time and the effort for this valuable service.
Camelot
Great refresher course.
As you like to say 'you are consistent".
there will be a Part ll and so on.
If you post enough by the end you'll have enough to publish a nice book
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FrederickCoinClub
The Ludlow Brilliant Collection (1938-64)
Concerning lighting, I see a guy at local shows (he's a dealer) who has what looks like a Mini-Maglite flashlight but it has a halogen lamp. He'll come over to someone's case and click it on then hold it about 2-3 feet above the case and move it over the coins while keeping it pointed straight down. Yet I've never seen a lamp like that for sale and always wondered where he got such a thing.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
In a brief manner, I'll describe how I initially look at a coin. (thanx Dad) Then hopefully Coinguy will give me an opinion of my method.
First I look at the whole piece rotating or whatever to get a fix on luster or where to start my initial impression of grade. Now I divide and conquer!
I look at the devices, and main focal points. Next I work around the coin from center to edge, kinda like pie slices, rotating, looking, checking the rim. The last thing I do is put a 3 to 7 power loupe on it. If I find something, I remove the loupe and look with my naked eye, and using the light. turn the coin maybe with say the portrait upside down, (gets you out of left brain mode), is the mark DISTRACTING.
I bet all of us have passed on, or sold, a coin that was 1 or 2 points higher than we thought because we used a powerful loupe in the wrong way.
If all goes well, I hope to have part ll ready by Monday.
Bear - Thank you. I think that's my second or third coveted "G.O.A." from you. I treasure them and will save them, in case I need to barter them in the future. Is that allowed?
Barry - Trime is not Bruce. But he is a heck of a nice guy!
Mike - you gave a couple of other good examples of when a loupe would be helpful. And there are certainly many others, as well.
relayer - no book for me. That wouldn't be nearly as enjoyable as this is.
RGL - thank you and I agree with your comments about lighting.
Kranky - I think I might know the guy you're talking about. Next time I see him, I'll try to find out about his light.
Merc and MadMonk - I promise to address your posts in my next thread on grading tips. You each raised important points that I was planning to discuss. Now, I'll have to start working on part ll sooner, rather than later - thanks a lot you two!
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
K S
Edited to add: If anyone has any questions, please feel free to ask them here or send them to me by PM. I will do my best to answer any which I receive.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
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morris <><
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I distinctly remember that the purpose of these large boxed areas was to block out the poor and confusing lighting that the various shows had, especially since the dreaded florescent bulbs became so popular in the late 1960's and early 1970's. It was to create a stable and consistent lighting environment for the buyer to use when looking at the dealer's wares.
Anyone remember this???????
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
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