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1908 NM Saint. You vs. NGC
johnny54321
Posts: 480 ✭
Though I have Saints in my type set, I always wanted a high grade one to keep certified. And this is it. Take a stab at the grade, I'm willing to bet most wont get it right....its a toughie. :-) I tried to keep glare down while maintaining luster(hard to do,especially in a slab)...and I limited it to only one pic of each side due to Stone's distaste of the scroll bar. Have at it!!
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Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
OINK
<< <i>Much nicer than my 65. At least a 66+.
OINK >>
Agreed but no prongs so no plus
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<< <i>
<< <i>Much nicer than my 65. At least a 66+.
OINK >>
Agreed but no prongs so no plus >>
You are right about the prongs. So, in that case I will say 66 with a gold bean.
OINK
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Much nicer than my 65. At least a 66+.
OINK >>
Agreed but no prongs so no plus >>
You are right about the prongs. So, in that case I will say 66 with a gold bean.
OINK >>
Gold bean on a 66 Saint does not exist. I'm going to say 66 CAC green sticker
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Wayne
www.waynedriskillminiatures.com
But seriously, I'd guess NGC Wells Fargo MS66 with CAC green bean.
Indian Head $10 Gold Date Set Album
Do you guys think it is worth trying to get a CAC for it at the 66 level? Its beautiful and has very few marks, but I hear that Saints are notoriously hard to get CAC'd especially from NGC.
<< <i>I bought it as I am starting an NGC star collection. The 1908 nm is exceptionally rare with the star designation. Out of the 120,000+ that were graded by NGC, almost all being in the MS range; only 33 examples received a star. >>
On the 08 NM the Well's Fargo hoard of nearly 10,000 coins was graded in the early 90's prior to the NGC * program. What does a * really mean... one of the graders liked it, but how do you know if he wasn't working with modern SHQ just the day before? Buy coins that wow you not because they have gimmicks on the slab label... As you will run across some * NGC coins that will make you wonder what take-out did they order for lunch in the grading room the day they thought it was special?
however, those hits on the chest and the leg makes me think it won't cac. there are some impaired rays on the reverse, so, i think it would cross at 64. that opinion's based on the photos only.
<< <i>first off, the coin looks great. i think the luster is there and the color is good.
however, those hits on the chest and the leg makes me think it won't cac. there are some impaired rays on the reverse, so, i think it would cross at 64. that opinion's based on the photos only. >>
I don't think there is any question it would cross to pcgs at 66. Without the tics on the sun and rays I bet it would go 67. Look at the small pic above just posted- it really glows.
<< <i> What does a * really mean... one of the graders liked it >>
ALL of the graders have to agree on a star designation, not just one...which is why it is uncommon. I also bought the coin because I liked it.
What bothers me about the star designation though is how often it is used on modern proof cameos and morgan PL/DPL coins to signify that one side is of stronger cameo distinction than the other. This is a lame use of the designation imho....better just to say obv cam or something like that. I wont buy any coins that use the star designation that way. But for beautifully toned or highly lustrous coins that truly deserve it because of exemplary surfaces for the given grade...I think it is a great use of the designation. I buy coins that I like, but it is nice to know that the graders thought the coin was a standout too, and it gives way for me to build a collection entirely based upon eye appeal....a direction I haven't gone.
<< <i>
<< <i>I bought it as I am starting an NGC star collection. The 1908 nm is exceptionally rare with the star designation. Out of the 120,000+ that were graded by NGC, almost all being in the MS range; only 33 examples received a star. >>
On the 08 NM the Well's Fargo hoard of nearly 10,000 coins was graded in the early 90's prior to the NGC * program. What does a * really mean... one of the graders liked it, but how do you know if he wasn't working with modern SHQ just the day before? Buy coins that wow you not because they have gimmicks on the slab label... As you will run across some * NGC coins that will make you wonder what take-out did they order for lunch in the grading room the day they thought it was special? >>
A * designation must me unanimous at NGC to get the star.
I think a star set is a worthy goal. NGC coins with stars get a lot of second looks, even from many PCGS fans.
CAC can green bean all they want, it is not a 66 coin IMO. I would give it a 64 and would never pay more than 64 money for it. The hits on the leg and chest knock it down from 66 and possibly 65......not a 66 coin. I hope you did not pay anywhere near 66 retail for it LOL. I have been in the business since 1990 and my grading opinions are my own from years on the bourse and an ANA grading seminar. I have over 100 Saints in my bankbox investor collection and have been grading these things for decades.
<< <i>
<< <i>I bought it as I am starting an NGC star collection. The 1908 nm is exceptionally rare with the star designation. Out of the 120,000+ that were graded by NGC, almost all being in the MS range; only 33 examples received a star. >>
On the 08 NM the Well's Fargo hoard of nearly 10,000 coins was graded in the early 90's prior to the NGC * program. What does a * really mean... one of the graders liked it, but how do you know if he wasn't working with modern SHQ just the day before? Buy coins that wow you not because they have gimmicks on the slab label... As you will run across some * NGC coins that will make you wonder what take-out did they order for lunch in the grading room the day they thought it was special? >>
Here indeed in an NGC * coin and I am not wondering why it has a star or what the graders were grading at any other time before or after this one. Nor did JA as it CACed. Come'on Broadie, NGC knows how to grade coins and when to apply the star. They bat just as well at CAC as JA beans pretty much the same proportion of NGC coins as he does PCGS. Word on the street is that CAC is very very hard on Saints so I would think it doesn't matter if it has a star or whose brand of holder surrounds it, either JA likes it for the grade or not.
Best, SH
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<< <i>first off, the coin looks great. i think the luster is there and the color is good.
however, those hits on the chest and the leg makes me think it won't cac. there are some impaired rays on the reverse, so, i think it would cross at 64. that opinion's based on the photos only. >>
Zactly. I thought -65 at most with those visible hits. A beautiful Saint either way.
<< <i>CAC can green bean all they want, it is not a 66 coin IMO. I would give it a 64 and would never pay more than 64 money for it. The hits on the leg and chest knock it down from 66 and possibly 65......not a 66 coin. I hope you did not pay anywhere near 66 retail for it LOL. I have been in the business since 1990 and my grading opinions are my own from years on the bourse and an ANA grading seminar. I have over 100 Saints in my bankbox investor collection and have been grading these things for decades. >>
Ok, I, for one, am up for paying you 63/64 money for coins that look like this all day long.
The 1908 NM looks to be a special cause for CAC. Look how many of the >100 1908 MS68 WF coins have been stickered....not a single coin. Look how many MS67's have been stickered out of many more....only 40. Clearly, the 1908 is held to an even higher standard than all other dates, probably because so many come with a mushy looking strike in the centers. CAC has stickered about 450 MS66's out of around 5,000 or so coins available. It's not an easy gig. A couple of marks, an average strike....and monster luster or eye appeal won't save it. This is a nice MS66 coin with very clean surfaces even for the 66 grade. But I think the knee cut alone might keep it from a sticker. It has also a touch of weakness/scuffing on the eagle's breast and leg feathers as well as Liberty's left knee/leg, face and breast area. There's a reason why stickered 66 Saints fetch an extra $1,000 over generic ones....that's because they are basically borderline MS67's. CAC doesn't easily sticker MS66+ coins either. I would imagine the same is true of NGC star coins. Getting a sticker on a MS66 1908 NM is probably 2X as hard as the 1924-1928 Philly dates.
Your 1908 NM Saint is a beautiful coin! -- Thanks for sharing her with us.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
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<< <i>The standards for stickered gem $20's is unlike any series out there. It's just a different animal. CAC stickers around 5-10% of all MS65/66/67 Saints and $20 Libs. They just routinely do not get stickered unless they have unquestionable monster looking surfaces, fresh luster, good strike, and fewer marks for the grade.
The 1908 NM looks to be a special cause for CAC. Look how many of the >100 1908 MS68 WF coins have been stickered....not a single coin. Look how many MS67's have been stickered out of many more....only 40. Clearly, the 1908 is held to an even higher standard than all other dates, probably because so many come with a mushy looking strike in the centers. CAC has stickered about 450 MS66's out of around 5,000 or so coins available. It's not an easy gig. A couple of marks, an average strike....and monster luster or eye appeal won't save it. This is a nice MS66 coin with very clean surfaces even for the 66 grade. But I think the knee cut alone might keep it from a sticker. It has also a touch of weakness/scuffing on the eagle's breast and leg feathers as well as Liberty's left knee/leg, face and breast area. There's a reason why stickered 66 Saints fetch an extra $1,000 over generic ones....that's because they are basically borderline MS67's. CAC doesn't easily sticker MS66+ coins either. I would imagine the same is true of NGC star coins. Getting a sticker on a MS66 1908 NM is probably 2X as hard as the 1924-1928 Philly dates. >>
Roadrunner knows his G$20 pieces, no doubt. Yes it is tough to get a CAC sticker on gem Saints and yes, a NM may be even tougher. Bottom line is that coin looks like a solid 66 in the images; If it looks as good in-hand then it should sticker because it's at least a B coin for the grade. As noted however, as a 1908 NM in 66, it must be an A coin for the grade to sticker. Essentially it would need to be a 66+ to sticker.
<< <i>The standards for stickered gem $20's is unlike any series out there. It's just a different animal. CAC stickers around 5-10% of all MS65/66/67 Saints and $20 Libs. They just routinely do not get stickered unless they have unquestionable monster looking surfaces, fresh luster, good strike, and fewer marks for the grade.
The 1908 NM looks to be a special cause for CAC. Look how many of the >100 1908 MS68 WF coins have been stickered....not a single coin. Look how many MS67's have been stickered out of many more....only 40. Clearly, the 1908 is held to an even higher standard than all other dates, probably because so many come with a mushy looking strike in the centers. CAC has stickered about 450 MS66's out of around 5,000 or so coins available. It's not an easy gig. A couple of marks, an average strike....and monster luster or eye appeal won't save it. This is a nice MS66 coin with very clean surfaces even for the 66 grade. But I think the knee cut alone might keep it from a sticker. It has also a touch of weakness/scuffing on the eagle's breast and leg feathers as well as Liberty's left knee/leg, face and breast area. There's a reason why stickered 66 Saints fetch an extra $1,000 over generic ones....that's because they are basically borderline MS67's. CAC doesn't easily sticker MS66+ coins either. I would imagine the same is true of NGC star coins. Getting a sticker on a MS66 1908 NM is probably 2X as hard as the 1924-1928 Philly dates. >>
And, if CAC stickers a + or * coin, it doesn't mean they agree with the + or the * for either TPG. It means they think it is an A or B coin for the grade. Not only are they hard on $20 pieces, but word on the street is that they are perhaps just as hard on seated liberty coins.
Best, SH
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<< <i>I would think it has a good shot but I would also think it has been attempted already so it didn't. Cross it to a PCGS 66 and it should if it doesn't as a NGC 66 >>
I buy my coins already graded, so I do not have experience submitting coins to CAC. Is it true that CAC is more likely to bean a coin because it is in a PCGS holder rather than a NGC holder as suggested, or is that just based on observation of the market? If it is true, what is the reason?
Indian Head $10 Gold Date Set Album
<< <i>From the images this coin looks to be accurately graded, and very attractive. 1908 No Mottos rarely have this gleaming lustre. CAC is tough on this coin, especially in NGC holders, but I think its worth a shot. A 66 is not a perfect coin and there is an allowance for a few marks here and there. >>
I posted my other comment before I saw this post. Sounds like it is believed to be a well known fact that CAC does not sticker NGC graded coins at the same rate as PCGS graded coins. Any thoughts as to why, especially with a coin like this one where most here guessed the correct grade? Assuming a coin is properly graded (and assuming an even spread across the spectrum between coins that are 66.1 to 66.9), seems the two companies should have the same shot at a bean, absent an inherent prejudice in favor of one company over the other.
Indian Head $10 Gold Date Set Album
<< <i>
<< <i>From the images this coin looks to be accurately graded, and very attractive. 1908 No Mottos rarely have this gleaming lustre. CAC is tough on this coin, especially in NGC holders, but I think its worth a shot. A 66 is not a perfect coin and there is an allowance for a few marks here and there. >>
I posted my other comment before I saw this post. Sounds like it is believed to be a well known fact that CAC does not sticker NGC graded coins at the same rate as PCGS graded coins. Any thoughts as to why, especially with a coin like this one where most here guessed the correct grade? Assuming a coin is properly graded (and assuming an even spread across the spectrum between coins that are 66.1 to 66.9), seems the two companies should have the same shot at a bean, absent an inherent prejudice in favor of one company over the other. >>
If PCGS is more conservative than NGC on a certain series then it is logical that CAC would have a higher sticker rate. I don't think that CAC varies it's standards for the different grading services.
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