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From MS65+ green CAC to MS67+ green CAC in months. How?
machoponcho
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I can see how from time to time a coin can go from a green CAC 65 to green CAC 66 given just the right circumstances. But two grade jumps and retaining a green sticker? Who has seen this coin in hand? What is the true grade? Were PCGS and CAC conservative when it was 65+ and/or liberal at a 67+? This is a very interesting example I noticed. It is my understanding CAC does not take the plus into account when deciding to sticker or not. Doesn't matter in this case, just wanted to make that clear, too. Not bashing one company one way or another, just wondering. 
http://www.greatcollections.co...r-PCGS-MS-65-CAC-Toned
http://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan...iteo-segwindeal-051516
http://www.greatcollections.co...r-PCGS-MS-65-CAC-Toned
http://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan...iteo-segwindeal-051516
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WS
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A good example of a coin that could be submitted 3X to 5X w/o getting the same grade twice. And why one needs to view TPG grading as just the latest in a series of grading "events." Sort of surprising that it stickered as a technical MS67....though low downside for CAC with that eye appeal. Though even the first time around at $660 it sold for what generic PCGS MS67's fetch. I watched the toner silver dollars at GC for much of April and May and was surprised at how picky CAC can be on 66/67 Morgans, even when they're toners. But there always a few that I don't agree with.
Simple - Grading is subjective - not an exact science.
WS
The "technical" grade on this coin shouldn't be all that subjective as common Morgans are some of the easiest coins to grade when blast white. If the coin were dipped, it would probably be a 65+/66 coin and worth $175-$250....not that big a range. It's the "value" that is even more subjective with a toner like this one where the toning adds multiples to the base price.
GC gets a lot of looks from the Morgan toner community. I suspect a lot of those consignments come from the toner silver dollar dealers themselves. If the coin fetched $660 the first time around, that's probably what 95% of the toner world thought it was worth no more than a few months ago. That coin had 56 bids on it which is near maximum interest for GC auctions.
Ah the tarnish premium..... sure is great for business....
Makes you wonder....doesn't it
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I can see how from time to time a coin can go from a green CAC 65 to green CAC 66 given just the right circumstances. But two grade jumps and retaining a green sticker? Who has seen this coin in hand? What is the true grade? Were PCGS and CAC conservative when it was 65+ and/or liberal at a 67+? This is a very interesting example I noticed. It is my understanding CAC does not take the plus into account when deciding to sticker or not. Doesn't matter in this case, just wanted to make that clear, too. Not bashing one company one way or another, just wondering.
http://www.greatcollections.co...r-PCGS-MS-65-CAC-Toned
http://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan...iteo-segwindeal-051516
A real head scratcher that CAC didn't give it a gold or kryptonite bean the first time at ms65. Depending upon the pics, that's not even nice toning.
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Ah the tarnish premium..... sure is great for business....
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hate on.....................
It is all a game.
this is what i have learned. just have fun with it. don't believe that coin grading yields an exact grade. there is only an approximate.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
This went from 64 CAC to 66 CAC. Which is more accurate in your opinion?
I am surprised PCGS gave this a 66. The surfaces are clean enough, but they (PCGS) usually want blast luster. I have no problem with 65 to 66, but 64 is too low for those surfaces. IMHO
they only grade a grade and this lets them off the hook way too easily.
in essence, what they said the first time was that we agree it is in the upper tier of all MS65 coins, close to an MS66 --- but PCGS had already said that with the (+) addition to the grade. to me that means that CAC said nothing unless I interpret the sticker as saying that the coin is in the upper tier of the MS65+ grade. isn't that MS66?? when it came back the second time in the MS67+ holder and they recognized it(because it has a very unique pattern and I believe JA is smart enough to know he had seen the coin and that it was in the database) it should have gotten no sticker since CAC had already said it wasn't even an MS66.
what a sham.....................
Seems that CAC errors on the conservative side in both these cases.
mark
That's an interesting way to spin inconsistency. You work at FoxNews?
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The dealer who bought it sent it to CAC as it was. You could tell is was better than a 64 in the holder, but the details were lost in the haze. When I received it I spent a good 15 minutes going over the holder with several grades of polishing paper to allow me to see the coin well. When I was done, I thought it was much better than a 64.
SO I sent it in to PCGS and told them to crack it out when they received it and grade it raw. They did. Came back 66. I immediately sent it to CAC in a new holder, with much better optical qualities than the old rattlers and they agreed it was a strong 66.
if it was cracked out and came back from PCGS as MS66+ would CAC give it a green or gold sticker??
....judging the slab from the GC auction it looks like the coin may have been graded 5-10 years ago while the CAC sticker(s) were issued more recently....
The coin was graded the first time as MS65+ an absolute max of 6 years ago. Plus (+) grading rolled out at PCGS in March of 2010, and this label/holder type (with the blue/white fade) dates from about the same time.
That's a pretty short time-frame for a 2 point swing, and two green CAC stickers...
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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what a sham.....................
That's not what CAC says. Never did they certify that this coin wasn't good enough for a MS66 grade....never.
By green stickering the 65+ the first time around CAC is only stating that it's not good enough for a SOLID MS66 (ie strong for the grade or higher end). And on the other end they are saying it's plenty good for a solid MS65. The coin could easily be a lower end MS66 and they won't gold bean it. And frankly, I'm surprised someone didn't get this into a MS66 holder sometime in the last 19 years as it probably met the low end MS66 standards for 1996-2015.
If I compare to the PCGS photograde photos, the coin is no better than MS65. It falls well short of the MS66 on marks. And it's not in the same league as the pictured MS67 obverse.
I can't speak to the OP coin, but I can speak to the dime I posted. This was originally in a very old rattler. It had been slid across tables and into/out of boxes for over 20 years. The holder had a strong haze to it from all of the wear.
The dealer who bought it sent it to CAC as it was. You could tell is was better than a 64 in the holder, but the details were lost in the haze. When I received it I spent a good 15 minutes going over the holder with several grades of polishing paper to allow me to see the coin well. When I was done, I thought it was much better than a 64.
SO I sent it in to PCGS and told them to crack it out when they received it and grade it raw. They did. Came back 66. I immediately sent it to CAC in a new holder, with much better optical qualities than the old rattlers and they agreed it was a strong 66.
Well that sheds some light on one of the two coins I referenced. Makes sense to me. I'm sure it won't to some.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
That's not what CAC says. Never did they certify that this coin wasn't good enough for a MS66 grade....never.
By green stickering the 65+ the first time around CAC is only stating that it's not good enough for a SOLID MS66 (ie strong for the grade or higher end). And on the other end they are saying it's plenty good for a solid MS65. The coin could easily be a lower end MS66 and they won't gold bean it. And frankly, I'm surprised someone didn't get this into a MS66 holder sometime in the last 19 years as it probably met the low end MS66 standards for 1996-2015.
If I compare to the PCGS photograde photos, the coin is no better than MS65. It falls well short of the MS66 on marks. And it's not in the same league as the pictured MS67 obverse.
But the toning makes it worth 67 money right?; And that's the essence of market grading isn't it? You are correct IMO, technically it's no better than a 66.
what a sham.....................
That's not what CAC says. Never did they certify that this coin wasn't good enough for a MS66 grade....never.
By green stickering the 65+ the first time around CAC is only stating that it's not good enough for a SOLID MS66 (ie strong for the grade or higher end). And on the other end they are saying it's plenty good for a solid MS65. The coin could easily be a lower end MS66 and they won't gold bean it. And frankly, I'm surprised someone didn't get this into a MS66 holder sometime in the last 19 years as it probably met the low end MS66 standards for 1996-2015.
If I compare to the PCGS photograde photos, the coin is no better than MS65. It falls well short of the MS66 on marks. And it's not in the same league as the pictured MS67 obverse.
This post makes no sense to me. You do realize that CAC green beaned this coin the second time as a MS 67 coin right?
PCGS graded the coin MS 65 + the first time around. Given that they might dedicate just a few seconds to a coin in hand, it's at least possible that the Graders were more focused on the toning than the other gradable characteristics.
I'd love to know if the coin got a bath prior to it's recent submission. I'd also love to know who submitted it.
In the end, CAC still beaned the coin after receiving it's MS 67+ grade. Since they're "market makers" in coins they bean and market forces are ever changing, this isn't surprising either.
Think about it, if you were CAC wouldn't you want a bean on a condition rarity?
Because, just because.
This post makes no sense to me. You do realize that CAC green beaned this coin the second time as a MS 67 coin right?
Your post makes no sense to me. You do realize CAC stickered this coin as a MS65+, right? And you do realize it doesn't mean they wouldn't consider the coin as a lower end MS66? That's the point.
CAC's 2nd viewing as a MS67+ has nothing to do with the first viewing as a MS65+. Two separate grading and viewing events that were months or even years apart. The coin is neither a MS65+ or a MS67+. I would submit it's somewhere in between. It it gets cracked out and sent in another half dozen times, take that average, and we'll know what the actual market grade is.
CAC is and has always been quite conservative with gold beans. The fact that the coin didn't get one the first time around is consistent with that policy.
PCGS graded the coin MS 65 + the first time around. Given that they might dedicate just a few seconds to a coin in hand, it's at least possible that the Graders were more focused on the toning than the other gradable characteristics.
I'd love to know if the coin got a bath prior to it's recent submission. I'd also love to know who submitted it.
In the end, CAC still beaned the coin after receiving it's MS 67+ grade. Since they're "market makers" in coins they bean and market forces are ever changing, this isn't surprising either.
Think about it, if you were CAC wouldn't you want a bean on a condition rarity?
CAC ignores the + when affixing stickers. And, an 1881-S Morgan in MS67 is a far cry from a condition rarity. More than 2,000 graded MS67, nearly 200 graded MS67+ with 150 or so graded higher from PCGS alone.
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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If you chart Global Warming to the number of Pirates
http://www.treehugger.com/culture/talk-like-a-pirate-day-the-critical-relationship-between-pirates-and-climate-change.html
It is CLEAR that as the number of pirates have decreased, Global Warming increased.
So, the planet needs more pirates to keep Global Warming from a thermal runaway.
Sadly, the grading scales are tied to the net heat content of the oceans:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2015/jan/22/oceans-warming-so-fast-they-keep-breaking-scientists-charts
As the average deep ocean temperature increases, the average grade of a given population of coins increases.
A simple linear regression shows that if the pirate strongholds of Somolia, Indonesia, and Central America are wiped out, all coins will CAC 70.
A simple linear regression shows that if the pirate strongholds of Somolia, Indonesia, and Central America are wiped out, all coins will CAC 70.
Then its time to send those in to make the first MS 71
I can see how from time to time a coin can go from a green CAC 65 to green CAC 66 given just the right circumstances. But two grade jumps and retaining a green sticker? Who has seen this coin in hand? What is the true grade? Were PCGS and CAC conservative when it was 65+ and/or liberal at a 67+? This is a very interesting example I noticed. It is my understanding CAC does not take the plus into account when deciding to sticker or not. Doesn't matter in this case, just wanted to make that clear, too. Not bashing one company one way or another, just wondering.
http://www.greatcollections.co...r-PCGS-MS-65-CAC-Toned
http://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan...iteo-segwindeal-051516
The answer is pretty simple - in one of those two cases CAC made a mistake.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Maybe I should be trying some of those limited new green label coins that I have been ignoring.
Wondercoin.
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Rainbow Stars
CAC does not recognize + grading
While they might say this, I have had maybe one PCGS + coin not sticker. (Compared to at least 50 that did.)
CAC does not recognize + grading
While they might say this, I have had maybe one PCGS + coin not sticker. (Compared to at least 50 that did.)
In order for pcgs to give a coin ms65+ it must be a nice coin so of course it is more likely they would sticker a + coin vs a non + coin.
I do remember seeing a $100,000+ coin come into cac years ago that was graded ms65+ and john said he would only sticker it at ms64
Indian Head $10 Gold Date Set Album
CAC does not recognize + grading
While they might say this, I have had maybe one PCGS + coin not sticker. (Compared to at least 50 that did.)
Kind of obvious that they would sticker, now if your percentages were much lower your statement would have more meaning
Rainbow Stars
CAC does not recognize + grading
While they might say this, I have had maybe one PCGS + coin not sticker. (Compared to at least 50 that did.)
Kind of obvious that they would sticker, now if your percentages were much lower your statement would have more meaning
I have sent in 3 (PCGS plus grades) and 1 did not sticker...in all fairness though, it's a VAM that had a horrible die state and is missing luster and the 3rd which did not sticker of this same VAM.
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CAC does not recognize + grading
While they might say this, I have had maybe one PCGS + coin not sticker. (Compared to at least 50 that did.)
In order for pcgs to give a coin ms65+ it must be a nice coin so of course it is more likely they would sticker a + coin vs a non + coin.
I do remember seeing a $100,000+ coin come into cac years ago that was graded ms65+ and john said he would only sticker it at ms64
PCGS requires superior eye appeal to assign the + sign. Most of the time the surfaces are above average as well. I've been watching the Morgan toners on GC for a few months and have been surprised at how many really eye popping toner Morgans with middle of the grade surfaces don't get a sticker.
For example GC has auctioned 102 MS65+ Morgan dollars over the past 4 years. Out of those, only 50 coins stickered. That's only 49%. So while we'd expect CAC to sticker the vast majority of PCGS+ coins, it's not the case here. These are generally nice coins too.....and yet didn't get the sticker for whatever reason...possibly because some might not have been sent in.