.

GRANDAM · May 3, 2016 12:26PM

I have a Lincoln Civil War token that was struck this way. I can't see why this would not get a grade. My piece is a gold filled example that was probably struck for collectors after the 1864 election.

TheRegulator · May 3, 2016 12:47PM

What will prongs do to it?

TheDukeK · May 3, 2016 12:48PM

I would think it could but I'd wait till someone else reply's that matters. lol

Lakesammman · May 3, 2016 1:32PM

Maybe 70+?? More gold than the others??

lkeigwin · May 3, 2016 2:21PM

Cool! Wire rims.

Lance.

TwoSides2aCoin · May 3, 2016 2:26PM

Those photos suck like mine.

ricko · May 3, 2016 10:33PM

As long as the wire edge is not damaged, it should grade properly. Cheers, RickO

PerryHall · May 3, 2016 10:41PM

Originally posted by: lkeigwin

Cool! Wire rims.

Lance.

Good point. Same as the wire rims on some of the High Relief Saints. Both were caused by excess space between the die and the collar and extremely high striking pressure.

grip · May 3, 2016 10:42PM

Do they all have that wire rim/ high relief edge?

oih82w8 · May 3, 2016 10:44PM

Those rims may get folded over due to the malleability of 24K.

s4ny · May 3, 2016 11:36PM

Regardless of the grade, I would not buy one.
I consider that it negatively impacts the eye appeal.

cmerlo1 · May 3, 2016 11:57PM

Submit them as mint errors.

DollarAfterDollar · May 4, 2016 4:19AM

Get a file?

j/k

Goldminers · May 4, 2016 4:28AM

Originally posted by: DollarAfterDollar
Get a file?

LOL

My PCGS 70 should arrive in a couple hours and I will see if there are fins on it.

j/k

CommemKing · May 4, 2016 4:29AM

Looks like that's going to be a huge problem. Id send it back to the mint. What a poor job they did with these. I guarantee you there was no intent of a wire rim. That's a mechanical error.

pmac · May 4, 2016 5:09AM

Maybe if you made the Moderator aware of you questions, he could bring them to the attention of the "powers that be", sort of an end-round play.

jwitten · May 4, 2016 5:48AM

Originally posted by: TwoSides2aCoin
Those photos suck like mine.

They are my pictures, and I thought they were pretty decent. Oh well.

PerryHall · May 4, 2016 6:08AM

Originally posted by: GRANDAM

Originally posted by: pmac

Maybe if you made the Moderator aware of you questions, he could bring them to the attention of the "powers that be", sort of an end-round play.

I am working on it,,,,,

Send Don a PM letting him know about this thread. I'm sure this issue has been discussed in the grading room.

LanLord · May 4, 2016 6:35AM

Is there any thread with people chiming in as to whether their Mercs have this feature?

I'd like to know if this is the rule or the exception.

I looked at mine and it appears to have a raised metal fin in exactly the same spot as the jwitten photos.

2009UHR · May 4, 2016 6:42AM

8 of the ten I received were finned from the L to the B in Liberty. I kept one that wasn't, therefore the finned ones will be a hit.

Goldminers · May 4, 2016 6:47AM

Originally posted by: 2009UHR
8 of the ten I received were finned from the L to the B in Liberty. I kept one that wasn't, therefore the finned ones will be a hit.

The Centennial thread has dozens of people saying finning is quite common, so not to worry. The ones without fins, or messed up rims seem to be more difficult to find.

Goldminers · May 4, 2016 6:58AM

Originally posted by: jwitten

Originally posted by: TwoSides2aCoin
Those photos suck like mine.

They are my pictures, and I thought they were pretty decent. Oh well.

I really liked your pictures and it allowed me to really see what the fuss was about. It would be very difficult to cover that much depth of field on such a small coin and not have some areas out of focus.

shorecoll · May 4, 2016 7:08AM

I'd like to know if the prongs damage the fins, so if you try a regrade...the 2nd time it would bag.

ms70 · May 4, 2016 7:27AM

All these years and the mint still releases coins with issues. Premium coins at a premium no less.

au58 · May 4, 2016 7:39AM

So in essence, we're asking PCGS to grade the quality control, manufacturing processes, and material handling of the U.S. Mint.
What's the point?
Is this what coin collecting and TPG has become?

BStrauss3 · May 4, 2016 7:59AM

Send them in for conservation - the TPG will shave off the fin, grade the coin and sell the excess gold.

TomB · May 4, 2016 8:02AM

Originally posted by: jwitten

Originally posted by: TwoSides2aCoin

Those photos suck like mine.

They are my pictures, and I thought they were pretty decent. Oh well.

I think the images are excellent. They show exactly the area of interest.

Bochiman · May 4, 2016 8:04AM

Originally posted by: TomB

Originally posted by: jwitten

Originally posted by: TwoSides2aCoin

Those photos suck like mine.

They are my pictures, and I thought they were pretty decent. Oh well.

I think the images are excellent. They show exactly the area of interest.

I agree. The pictures were obviously meant to show the finning, not the entire coin in clear focus, and they succeed at showing that finning. I found them educational since I didn't even take a close look at the ones I received to see if they had this finning or not.

I, for one, appreciated the pics, Jwitten.

bolivarshagnasty · May 4, 2016 8:58AM

Originally posted by: au58

So in essence, we're asking PCGS to grade the quality control, manufacturing processes, and material handling of the U.S. Mint.

What's the point?

Is this what coin collecting and TPG has become?

That is exactly what they do for all moderns, determine how well the mint has done it's job.

These finned Mercs should have never been released. Black eye for the mint. Glad I didn't participate.

TwoSides2aCoin · May 5, 2016 12:23AM

End around game. Photographer gets a YOU SUCK award due to my comments.

Gotcha boys.

TwoSides2aCoin · May 5, 2016 12:25AM

Originally posted by: cmerlo1
Submit them as mint errors.

Calling Fred Weinberg.

Goldminers · May 5, 2016 12:25AM

Yes, SP70's are being graded with finning, but no proof PCGS will call them errors.

Fin hype and big $$

FredWeinberg · May 5, 2016 12:32AM

If they're submitted under the Mint Error tier,

I'd call them "Finned Rim Obv.", and possibly put

'from 5:00 to 11:00', or whatever is appropriate.

Maybe 'Finned Wire Rim Obv.'

I haven't had any communication from PCGS about

these yet; I'm supposed to talk to David Hall today

about a different subject, and I'll ask him about these

Gold Merc. Finned Rims, if I do talk to him.

TwoSides2aCoin · May 5, 2016 12:33AM

The pictures of mine that sucked were of the obverse die markers on a Cheerios Sacagawea circa 2005..., through the blister pack that was used by MWallace for his small dollar site , and for a few years until JeremyKatz photos were used. Thanks Mike.... and this was long before PCGS would even call it a "cheerios" dollar. See Braddick, and DeLorey for details
.... Needless to say, or explain, the photos are great to me. Why ? Because they show the "error" or "mechanical" problem in the minting of the coin.

Be that said, I don't mean to spark so much "ire" or attention with words like "Your pictures suck like mine"... , but it works. Right ?

Goldminers · May 5, 2016 1:21AM

Hypothetical question. If 80% of the coins are minted with finned rims on the obverse, and 20% don't have the finning, is the real error that the Mint somehow managed to mint 20% of them right?

AngryTurtle · May 5, 2016 1:29AM

Many moderns have finning to some degree. Pending Fred W's definitive answer my guess would have been that PCGS would not 70 these, but NGC would. Here are the definitions for the respective websites:

PCGS-70 As struck, with full strike.

NGC-70 A coin with no post-production imperfections at 5x magnification.

BTW those are the complete definition.

Although the dont always go by the written definition in my observation.

Walkerfan · May 5, 2016 2:36AM

I have no idea what they'll do.

But sounds like to me that it is a widespread problem that will have to be ignored when grading.

So it shouldn't affect the MS 70 grade IMHO.

19Lyds · May 5, 2016 5:39AM

Email David Hall and cc Don Willis and Mike Faraone. Their emails should be available on the PCGS Website.

steveben · May 5, 2016 6:13AM

Originally posted by: GRANDAM

I have, no answer yet.

don't hold your breath!

TopographicOceans · May 5, 2016 6:53AM

You could always just submit them and see what you get back

au58 · May 5, 2016 8:36AM

Originally posted by: TopographicOceans
You could always just submit them and see what you get back

Imagine that.
What a novel idea.
And then, if you don't like what they think (i.e., their opinion), you can spend more time and effort and money sending them back in for second and third opinions, then ask CAC what they think, and if you don't like any of that, come back on here and quibble some more.

PCGS will be grading the production process, not a coin.

Bochiman · May 5, 2016 8:43AM

I would ask some of the ones who have submitted, and gotten grades, if they have ones with finning and what happened.

Have you tried that yet?

JCLIGHTBRIGADE · May 5, 2016 9:01AM

It would be nice if there was someone available to call and ask. Record profits should influence an improved process. Personslly, I don't care to send emails to the top and potentially receive no response nor would it seem appropriate to do so. I'm sure they're busy running things.

mariner67 · May 5, 2016 9:02AM

In a seperate thread here ...2016 centennial gold....it is reported by "gold miners" he has an SP70 with fins all the way around. And, some bent fins where prongs attach.
Check it out.

Cameonut · May 5, 2016 9:13AM

It seems to me the irregular finning is a mint defect.

Therefore, there is no way in my mind that a straight high grade is merited. Especially when compared to coins that do not exhibit the defect.

So, if I were running PCGS, I would simply "no grade" the finned pieces - or knock them down 5 points. This sends a strong message to our woefully inadequate US Mint and collectors will have to follow their lead.

We should expect excellence from the US Mint because they are charging a premium price for their carp.

JMHO

Bochiman · May 5, 2016 9:35AM

Uh-oh....did GrandAm delete all his posts or was it "done for him"?

bronco2078 · May 5, 2016 9:54AM

Originally posted by: Bochiman
Uh-oh....did GrandAm delete all his posts or was it "done for him"?

I don't know if I like this "delete posts " thing , when posts disappear its very confusing.

Goldminers · May 5, 2016 10:01AM

I have my PCGS SP70 and have studied it very carefully, and I believe PCGS did correctly grade it to be a SP70, "fully as struck". Clearly it was a nice strike and had no defects except for finning. Actually it is a super strike, so hard that it made fins all around to various degrees.

By definition, an "error" is supposed to be something done by mistake. In this case, since so many coins have this result, it is doubtful that it is a Mint error in the pure sense, but simply the Mint has lowered their standards. PCGS is grading these as they see them based if they are "fully as struck" and looking for defects if they find any, and I have no argument with the grade and their decision to slab them as well as they can under the circumstances.

TwoSides2aCoin · May 5, 2016 1:04PM

Originally posted by: Bochiman
Uh-oh....did GrandAm delete all his posts or was it "done for him"?

Another kind of "sucks" doesn't it ? I got all confused coming back here

19Lyds · May 5, 2016 6:30PM

Originally posted by: Goldminers

By definition, an "error" is supposed to be something done by mistake. In this case, since so many coins have this result, it is doubtful that it is a Mint error in the pure sense, but simply the Mint has lowered their standards. PCGS is grading these as they see them based if they are "fully as struck" and looking for defects if they find any, and I have no argument with the grade and their decision to slab them as well as they can under the circumstances.

Explain that to the folks that submitted all those extra high relief GAE's that got rejected by PCGS and NGC.

TopographicOceans · May 5, 2016 7:11PM

Originally posted by: Bochiman
Uh-oh....did GrandAm delete all his posts or was it "done for him"?

No, Bill started a thread about his Lincoln Civil War token

.

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