<< <i>I've suggested this in the past. Offer the vacated tables to small local B&M dealers, vest pocket dealers, and collectors at a sharply reduced table fee. Some of the big dealers may even stick around to cherry pick the smaller dealers. >>
I think this is the best solution to a problem that is otherwise not solvable.
If I rent a space and put out 1 (one) coin and sell it with in 30 minutes, I'm packing up and going home. No body, not even the promoter is gonna make me stay and if they deny me entrance next year because of that, so be it...let freedom ring!
<< <i>I've suggested this in the past. Offer the vacated tables to small local B&M dealers, vest pocket dealers, and collectors at a sharply reduced table fee. Some of the big dealers may even stick around to cherry pick the smaller dealers. >>
Here is what happens : Some dealers leave early the last day of the show. Knowing this fewer poeple attend on the last day which causes more dealers to leave earlier which causes less people to attend which ...... It just feeds on itself. I stopped going to coin shows on the last day many years ago.
<< <i>Here is what happens : Some dealers leave early the last day of the show. Knowing this fewer poeple attend on the last day which causes more dealers to leave earlier which causes less people to attend which ...... It just feeds on itself. I stopped going to coin shows on the last day many years ago. >>
Exactly, the bottom line is that the show running for the advertised timeframe is good for the hobby and not doing so is bad for it. You can try to put any other spin on it you want but that fact will not change.
Dealers should be able to leave if they wish, however, they should lose all selection privileges for future shows (not be charged more).
There should be a section in the far back corner for wholesale only dealers and it should be marked, so collectors know not to bother.
IMHO Retail is a mentality...in the town I live in many mom-and-pop stores are not open Friday night and only until noon or so on Saturday and wonder why the big box stores eat their lunch. As with other businesses, some coin dealers have a retail mentaility and many don't. Not staying at shows and not supporting YN efforts are symptoms of the same problem and I do fear for the future of the industry...even some of the "best" dealers are guilty of these offenses and let others worry about the future.
<< <i>You can try to put any other spin on it you want... >>
It's not spin to state that dealers are going to do what they perceive to be in the best interest of their business.
If show promoters make their event unappealing enough to dealers, dealers will stop coming. Insisting that dealers stay for the whole show even if they're sitting on their thumbs and debating with the neighboring dealer whether or not the current attendance is still three figures or has dropped to two (or one), what will happen is this: Dealers will stop attending the show.
Question (not rhetorical): Is having dealers not attend at all better than having them attend for two out of the three days a show runs?
<< <i>You can try to put any other spin on it you want... >>
It's not spin to state that dealers are going to do what they perceive to be in the best interest of their business.
If show promoters make their event unappealing enough to dealers, dealers will stop coming. Insisting that dealers stay for the whole show even if they're sitting on their thumbs and debating with the neighboring dealer whether or not the current attendance is still three figures or has dropped to two (or one), what will happen is this: Dealers will stop attending the show.
Question (not rhetorical): Is having dealers not attend at all better than having them attend for two out of the three days a show runs? >>
Answer: The promoters get to decide that, not me. The promoters have the right to do what they feel is in the best interest of their business also. If they wish to charge more or offer less desirable positioning to those who leave early that is their call and they should not be portrayed as "evil" for doing so. I attend a show that is not coin related that has a several year waiting list to get a table. Leave that show early and you lose your right of retention and you go to the bottom of the list.
<< <i>Answer: It depends and is up to the promoter to decide. >>
Of course it is.
<< <i>The promoters have the right to do what they feel is in the best interest of their business also. >>
Of course they do.
Supposing you were a promoter- what do you think? Would encouraging dealers to not come to your show at all if they can't stay for the whole thing be good for your business? I'll repeat what I said before- be careful what you wish for.
<< <i>I attend a show that is not coin related that has a several year waiting list to get a table. Leave that show early and you lose your right of retention and you go to the bottom of the list. >>
Non coin related shows (some of them, anyway) charge multiples of what coin shows charge for attendance, too. Unless a show is coin related, drawing conclusions from that show and relating them to coin shows is probably questionable.
edited to add... this is my own personal opinion so I have no facts to back it up, but I believe show promoters need dealers more than dealers need show promoters.
<< <i>Supposing you were a promoter- what do you think? Would encouraging dealers to not come to your show at all if they can't stay for the whole thing be good for your business? I'll repeat what I said before- be careful what you wish for. >>
Most of the time "don't feel like it" could be substituted for "can't"
If I were a promoter encouraging dealers to be set up and ready for business for the advertised timeframe of the show would be what was best for my business in the long run. Being known as the show that dies early and is not worth attending late is what would be the worst for it.
edited to add: Since I'm neither a dealer or a promoter, I'll watch while those who are duke it out. I will add that I see absolutely nothing wrong with promoters offering perks or discounts to those who stay for the full term of the show.
the saying about "A Question wrapped inside a Riddle and surrounded by an Enigma" would seem to fit whatever the answer to this kind of situation might be. it will always be happening so there's probably no use to get whipped up in a frothy frenzy about it.
<< <i>I've suggested this in the past. Offer the vacated tables to small local B&M dealers, vest pocket dealers, and collectors at a sharply reduced table fee. Some of the big dealers may even stick around to cherry pick the smaller dealers. >>
Sounds like a pretty good idea to me. >>
I have to concur with PerryHall, ColonialCoinUnion, and Tassa 100%. ILNA has tried this with their show with some success and has, for the most part, continue to do this.
DORAN COINS - On Facebook, Instagram, X (formerly Twitter), & www.dorancoins.net - UPCOMING SHOWS (tentative dates)- 2/26/2026 - Joliet, IL
<< <i>Would being known as the show that lots of dealers don't want to attend at all be a good thing? >>
We can debate this all night but there really is no point. Dealers will do lots of things they don't want to if they are making money at it. That's the real bottom line, if the show is profitable enough for them they will be there. They may complain and come here portraying promoters as evil but if they are making good money at the show they will be there.
I'm with the "I paid for the table and I can leave if I want" crowd.
There becomes a point when customers stop coming in and making it worth the time and effort to be there. I do local shows and have never been the first to leave, but some shows are simply not worth the time and effort to be there. The largest show I have done is a three day show in Milwaukee, WI (April or May depending on the schedule). I have hung around 'til the end most every time I have been there, and it simply isn't worth the effort to stay two to three hours longer than most. My time could be better spent getting ready for the next day ,or taking a nap.
I understand some collectors have to come in late, but for some odd reason the later customers just don't make it worth the stay.
When my wife and I went to Schaumburg on Saturday (as spectators), it was pretty slow, and we heard multiple dealers stating the coin show was dead and they seems not to like the local.
PNG day was better and there were only about one-third the amount of dealers, as compared to Saturday.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>We can debate this all night but there really is no point. Dealers will do lots of things they don't want to if they are making money at it. >>
I believe I already made this point:
"Perhaps if the show promoter had spent the time and money involved in documenting dealers who left early on attracting more retail customers to the show instead so that dealers were doing enough business that they wouldn't have time to even think about leaving before the end of the show, the filming exercise might have not been needed?"
<< <i>That's the real bottom line, if the show is profitable enough for them they will be there. >>
That's about it.
<< <i>They may complain and come here portraying promoters as evil but if they are making good money at the show they will be there. >>
That's about it again. One thing you can bet on- if dealers are making money, they'll stay just about as long as there are buyers.
<< <i>That's about it again. One thing you can bet on- if dealers are making money, they'll stay just about as long as there are buyers. >>
Yeah but that brings up that nasty chicken or egg question again. Are there no buyers late in the show because dealers leave early or do dealers leave early because there are no buyers?
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not a dealer hater and am far from that but I'm not a promoter hater either. It takes 3 parties to make a show with the third being buyers. I see nothing wrong with encouraging dealers to stay for the entirety of the show. I'd prefer we did not "discipline" those who don't but rather "reward" those who do.
Its not that simple, dealers who are smaller and on limitted budget or other "day" jobs have to leave at times that might be earlier than show close... yet they try.... the bigger dealers leave and then leave some kid with a few eagles in the case to "be" at the show.... point being... its the colletors fault... if there was real business going on the dealers would make a bigger effort to stay...
<< <i>point being... its the colletors fault... if there was real business going on the dealers would make a bigger effort to stay... >>
I'm not saying this translates to a regional/national show, but the coin club I used to belong to puts on an annual show. It's a weekend show (Saturday/Sunday), and on Sundays, if the floor is busy, the dealers typically stay until the end of the show but if it's slow, they leave early.
<< <i>point being... its the colletors fault... if there was real business going on the dealers would make a bigger effort to stay... >>
I'm not saying this translates to a regional/national show, but the coin club I used to belong to puts on an annual show. It's a weekend show (Saturday/Sunday), and on Sundays, if the floor is busy, the dealers typically stay until the end of the show but if it's slow, they leave early.
You can take from this whatever you will. >>
The few (and best) dealers i know are usually the last to pack up and are generally being ordered out of the building by the lock-up crew.
<< <i>I've suggested this in the past. Offer the vacated tables to small local B&M dealers, vest pocket dealers, and collectors at a sharply reduced table fee. Some of the big dealers may even stick around to cherry pick the smaller dealers. >>
Sounds like a pretty good idea to me. >>
I have to concur with PerryHall, ColonialCoinUnion, and Tassa 100%. ILNA has tried this with their show with some success and has, for the most part, continue to do this. >>
<< <i>Its not that simple, dealers who are smaller and on limitted budget or other "day" jobs have to leave at times that might be earlier than show close... yet they try.... the bigger dealers leave and then leave some kid with a few eagles in the case to "be" at the show.... point being... its the colletors fault... if there was real business going on the dealers would make a bigger effort to stay... >>
''
No kidding! Those EVIL collectors! It's all their fault! Heck, I bet the show as heavily promoted, dealers brought ALL their wares and were pleasant to deal with and had great prices, but it was all the collectors' fault! Makes sense to me!
Its real simple. Charge the dealers an extra $200 per show. On Sunday, walk thru and hand out two $100 bills to whichever dealers are still there. Whatever is not handed out, do drawings in gift certificates valid that day only to the collectors who showed up.
<< <i>Its real simple. Charge the dealers an extra $200 per show. On Sunday, walk thru and hand out two $100 bills to whichever dealers are still there. Whatever is not handed out, do drawings in gift certificates valid that day only to the collectors who showed up. >>
Funny how the local boat show in CT had 12,500 people show up and walk around the 3 days.... wanna guess how many showed up for Central States?
Its time to totally reinvent the coin show and make it entertaining and worth coming out for....
Not that I know anything about boat shows, but my understanding is that most areas have them once a year, so attending the boat show is a special event.
On the other hand, it seems like there's a big regional/national coin show every other weekend.
I can understand why a dealer who goes to 15 to 20 big shows (plus auctions) per year would want to leave early if the show is quiet and I can understand why most coin shows only have one or two busy days, no matter how many days the show is scheduled for.
I may live in a coin show "rich" environment, but in a give year I could go to Baltimore/Philly three times, Parsippany up to 12 times and a smaller, local show just about every weekend for nine months (and that doesn't even count FUN or ANA or Central States, etc.)- why would I possibly think that any coin show would be "special" enough to spend two or three days there.
<< <i>Its real simple. Charge the dealers an extra $200 per show. On Sunday, walk thru and hand out two $100 bills to whichever dealers are still there. Whatever is not handed out, do drawings in gift certificates valid that day only to the collectors who showed up. >>
Brilliant!!! :-D >>
that would be appropriate incentive for the behavior that is desired by everyone, subsidized only by those who cut out early, and they willingly accept the penalty. Perfect.
<< <i>At the CSNS show yesterday afternoon, two guys were driving a cart up and down the aisles with a video camera.
Were they looking for coin thieves???
NOOOOOOOOO. >>
It was Google staff updating Google Earth, to better navigate the show. >>
That is pretty darn funny
A guy who steals three coins is let go and dealers are harrassed for not having a badge on. Weeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
As a collector I have often left shows earlier then planned when they sucked.
On a side note this Central States show was the least favorite show I've ever attended. It was a rally killer.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>if the show is good, then yes stay. if its dead seeeeeee ya. its a judgment thing ( for what its worth ) >>
I agree with this. If its a good day and busy and all then I see it that dealers should stay to the end. If its dead and nothing is really going on and low attendance. I see no reason to stay and they should go early if they choose ( even from a buyer end ). If its so slow that dealers want to leave early if i show up late Im sure im already feeling like ive wasted my time before I start looking at whomever is left. If the vibe isnt there buyers will have a negative feeling before seeing whos left and who is staying.
I also subscribe to If I pay , Ill be there as long as I care to be. You got my 100$ or whatever the cost was. If it isnt working for me I should have a right to cut my losses at some point.
Founder of the NDCCA. *WAM Count : 025. *NDCCA Database Count : 2,610. *You suck 6/24/10. In memory of Tiggar 5/21/1994 - 5/28/2010
If the Central States show is open on Sunday, this whole argument is totally silly. No dealer should ever be punished for not attending the show on Sunday. I get so sick of these whiners who complain that no one is there on Sunday. As former dealer I can tell you that Sunday was often a waste of time and money. Most of what you get are tire kickers who think that they should be getting end of the show bargains. They don’t seem to realize that most dealers will have another show in a week or two.
On the other side of the issue I have a problem with dealers who pick up and leave on Friday afternoon of a Thursday to Sunday show. I think that they should stay at least until the middle of Saturday afternoon. If they don’t then they do deserve some sort of penalty.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I think a contract signed should be honored, but I cannot see "strong arming" the vendor who's footing the bill more than the public (and joe public is paying his fair share, too).
From having worked plenty of the HOME shows in another business, those contractual rules basically apply there, too. Vendors are stuck in the middle of the public and the promoters. It's a squeeze play. A tough place to play. We can't just pack up and leave until the show is over.
I do understand the promoters' point of view. They've made a public commitment to have X amount of dealers and there has to be an attempt at enforcement of the contractual obligation. (That's the key). There ought to be an "early out clause" written into the contract, in the event a dealer has travel , a show is slow, sickness , or injury.
You can be sure that the "coin show police" stepped-up oversight was a direct result of complaints by various individuals with clout. I would also suggest that these shows go too long as many like "Coin rarities online" has suggested. But if you are going to have grading options at a show it is going to have to run two days at least. The only way around that would be to get the coins to the grading services before the show at a tier level where they will get expressed through.
The successful shows are going to be those in areas of the country with strong collector bases where people do not have to travel too far and that are not already saturated with coin shows. I heard many good things about the recent one that Charmy "the penny lady" covered in the northwest.
Over the last 3 decades plus I've either attended, set up at, and/or been involved in promoting and running both coin and non-coin (i.e., Civil War memorabilia) shows. I can understand the points being made by those on both sides of the table... but that said, let me make a few observations.
1. Frankly I think that free admission shows aren't necessarily a good thing. I understand the philosophy of attracting people with no admission charge- and perhaps that's OK for a really small show or a new show trying to build a following... but aside from helping defray costs, admission fees help shake out tire kickers. I was at a show not too long ago and saw a local guy with a rep as a windjammer who was raising a huge stink about having to pay a whole $1. Go to any high end antique/collectible/car/boat/train show and they charge anywhere from $5 to $20, no one complains about the fee, and they pack the place with serious buyers of quality material. Also, at most of those higher end shows, attendance until closing time is mandatory- and many have a waiting list of dealers willing to take your spot if you break the rules... but few if any do- because they're all having a good show. We used to put on a Civil War show in Indianapolis with a $5 admit fee and averaged maybe two or three complaints over three days per show for 8 years, and that was either because they didn't bother to read the newspaper ad stating the fee or they were just casually driving by and looking to kill time browsing around.
I guess my point is that if the collector already has a little skin in the game then he's a)more likely to buy something and b) less likely to want to hang at your table talking about what Grandma had or giving you a date by date breakdown of how and where he acquired his Memorial cent collection. And, in return, having better quality buyers incentivizes dealer attendance for the duration of the show.
2. Sundays are simply a pain for many dealers, no question- especially those who need to travel significant miles to get home and/or those who came strictly to trade with other dealers and have already done all of the business they're going to do at the show. Let those guys leave, and offer a reduced Sunday table rate for those wishing to stay the extra day or set up Sunday only. Also-you could make Sunday a no-admission fee day so the incoming public doesn't complain about paying to see less dealers. If they want to see the whole roster, they can pay the admission fee and come Saturday. As was stated before, if it is packed Sunday, the dealers who are there to sell OTC are going to stay anyway so it's a non issue. But I can't see forcing anyone to stay on Sunday if they came to do wholesale only and/or there is absolutely nothing going on.
3. Eliminating Sunday and making it a Friday/Saturday show with slightly shorter Saturday hours and mandatory attendance until close both days is something that many organizations are doing or considering. That way out of town dealers have plenty of time to get home and collectors can't complain about guys leaving early.
4. Have a table agreement that CLEARLY spells out everything that you're agreeing to by renting a table. Many I see have a line for how many tables you want, followed by a paragraph of liability disclaimers- and maybe one sentence about attendance or early departure, if any.
Also, to the person who wanted a cut of the admission fee for staying...trust me on this because I know first hand; show promoters don't get rich from admission fees. They help defray some of the cost and that's about all. Even with the higher fee shows-they are usually held in more costly venues so it's a wash in that regard.
All I can say is IT"S ABOUT TIME!!!! I am sick and tired of driving MANY hours just to arrive and find clear tables. Sometime more than half of the dealer have already left town.....Joe
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
<< <i>I believe most dealers will remain where there are buyers. Maybe this whole problem lies on the shoulders of the buyers. >>
Really? Which buyers would that be? The one's who have been conditioned to come early, did just that and spent their money or the "buyers" who did not show up at all? Or perhaps you are suggesting something like a buyer lottery take place with a certain amount being permitted to come on each day spread out over the entire show? Please explain how the buyers are at fault. I paid $100 for two, including myself to get into Baltimore on Thursday at 10AM for the 2 hour early buyers session on the first day and spent thousands. Did I do something wrong? Am I at fault?
<< <i>I believe most dealers will remain where there are buyers. Maybe this whole problem lies on the shoulders of the buyers. >>
Really? Which buyers would that be? The one's who have been conditioned to come early, did just that and spent their money or the "buyers" who did not show up at all? Or perhaps you are suggesting something like a buyer lottery take place with a certain amount being permitted to come on each day spread out over the entire show? Please explain how the buyers are at fault. I paid $100 for two, including myself to get into Baltimore on Thursday at 10AM for the 2 hour early buyers session on the first day and spent thousands. Did I do something wrong? Am I at fault? >>
Early bird gets the worm. No worms, no birds. Fewer buyers near the end of the show will result in fewer sellers. Simple mathmatics. It is what it is.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
Maybe John is NOT worth waiting for! Maybe my time is more important to me that to John Doe? Maybe my safety is more important that John Doe?
I understant that for a great coin show there needs to be a good selection of coin dealers and customer both.
If show attendeance looks like this Friday 5,000 Saturday 8,000 Sunday 500
Why stay sunday spending an extra night hotel expense over $100.00 and food expense. And what is my time worth per hour (HOURLY RATE lets use your pay rate)
What do dealers see on sundays?????? That they haven't seen on the first 2 days?
However I always stay to the end, but that is just me. I understand why other dealers leave early. The last minute crowd seems less educated, rude and spend MUCH less tht those attending the frist 2 days.
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Their website shows that the show was from April 16th-21st (Saturday), with the 16th just being there for the security room, 17th for setup/lot viewing, 18th for the PNG day, 19th for the public, 20th for the public, 21st for the public, and the 22nd just for removing merchandise by 1pm.
Learn about our world's shared history told through the first millennium of coinage: Colosseo Collection
Maybe John is NOT worth waiting for! Maybe my time is more important to me that to John Doe? Maybe my safety is more important that John Doe?
I understant that for a great coin show there needs to be a good selection of coin dealers and customer both.
If show attendeance looks like this Friday 5,000 Saturday 8,000 Sunday 500
Why stay sunday spending an extra night hotel expense over $100.00 and food expense. And what is my time worth per hour (HOURLY RATE lets use your pay rate)
What do dealers see on sundays?????? That they haven't seen on the first 2 days?
However I always stay to the end, but that is just me. I understand why other dealers leave early. The last minute crowd seems less educated, rude and spend MUCH less tht those attending the frist 2 days. >>
You should be able to run your business as you see fit. I don't think anyone is telling you otherwise but want you to know there may be consequences as a result. I don't argue against that but some will and have. My point is though that the same thing applies to the promoters and this thread was started to bash them for doing just what most of the dealers feel they have the right to do "run their business as they see fit to". I am playing devils advocate here but it is the promoters sandbox and the owner of the sandbox gets to make the rules. You have the right to decide if you can live with those rules or not, ie "play in the sandbox". If promoters choose to treat dealers better who attend the entire show that is their business and falls under the purview of running their business as they see fit so there is no reason to bash them over it. This is especially true of those who think they should be able to leave when they wish because they paid for the table. The promoter paid for the convention center so they get to decide who gets in and for what price. They also have to live with any consequences of any bad decision they make in that regard.
<< <i>When you start forcing customers to buy or forcing sellers sell there no longer is a "market." >>
I don't think anyone is "forcing" anyone to do anything. If you know the deal and make your decision based upon what the deal is there is no "forcing" of anything.
<< <i>When you start forcing customers to buy or forcing sellers sell there no longer is a "market." >>
I don't think anyone is "forcing" anyone to do anything. If you know the deal and make your decision based upon what the deal is there is no "forcing" of anything. >>
My bad, I thought this thread was about requiring dealers to stay on the floor regardless of their desire to leave.
Simple solution. Lock the door on Sunday and nobody leaves til closing time.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
Comments
<< <i>I wish they did this at the Long Beach shows!!! Either that, or don't bother charging people admission on Saturdays... >>
Yeah, do you remember Sundays at LB?
EAC 6024
<< <i>I've suggested this in the past. Offer the vacated tables to small local B&M dealers, vest pocket dealers, and collectors at a sharply reduced table fee. Some of the big dealers may even stick around to cherry pick the smaller dealers. >>
I think this is the best solution to a problem that is otherwise not solvable.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>I've suggested this in the past. Offer the vacated tables to small local B&M dealers, vest pocket dealers, and collectors at a sharply reduced table fee. Some of the big dealers may even stick around to cherry pick the smaller dealers. >>
Sounds like a pretty good idea to me.
Jade Rare Coin eBay Listings
<< <i>Here is what happens : Some dealers leave early the last day of the show. Knowing this fewer poeple attend on the last day which causes more dealers to leave earlier which causes less people to attend which ...... It just feeds on itself. I stopped going to coin shows on the last day many years ago. >>
Exactly, the bottom line is that the show running for the advertised timeframe is good for the hobby and not doing so is bad for it. You can try to put any other spin on it you want but that fact will not change.
There should be a section in the far back corner for wholesale only dealers and it should be marked, so collectors know not to bother.
IMHO Retail is a mentality...in the town I live in many mom-and-pop stores are not open Friday night and only until noon or so on Saturday and wonder why the big box stores eat their lunch. As with other businesses, some coin dealers have a retail mentaility and many don't. Not staying at shows and not supporting YN efforts are symptoms of the same problem and I do fear for the future of the industry...even some of the "best" dealers are guilty of these offenses and let others worry about the future.
<< <i>You can try to put any other spin on it you want... >>
It's not spin to state that dealers are going to do what they perceive to be in the best interest of their business.
If show promoters make their event unappealing enough to dealers, dealers will stop coming. Insisting that dealers stay for the whole show even if they're sitting on their thumbs and debating with the neighboring dealer whether or not the current attendance is still three figures or has dropped to two (or one), what will happen is this: Dealers will stop attending the show.
Question (not rhetorical): Is having dealers not attend at all better than having them attend for two out of the three days a show runs?
<< <i>
<< <i>You can try to put any other spin on it you want... >>
It's not spin to state that dealers are going to do what they perceive to be in the best interest of their business.
If show promoters make their event unappealing enough to dealers, dealers will stop coming. Insisting that dealers stay for the whole show even if they're sitting on their thumbs and debating with the neighboring dealer whether or not the current attendance is still three figures or has dropped to two (or one), what will happen is this: Dealers will stop attending the show.
Question (not rhetorical): Is having dealers not attend at all better than having them attend for two out of the three days a show runs? >>
Answer: The promoters get to decide that, not me. The promoters have the right to do what they feel is in the best interest of their business also. If they wish to charge more or offer less desirable positioning to those who leave early that is their call and they should not be portrayed as "evil" for doing so. I attend a show that is not coin related that has a several year waiting list to get a table. Leave that show early and you lose your right of retention and you go to the bottom of the list.
<< <i>Answer: It depends and is up to the promoter to decide. >>
Of course it is.
<< <i>The promoters have the right to do what they feel is in the best interest of their business also. >>
Of course they do.
Supposing you were a promoter- what do you think? Would encouraging dealers to not come to your show at all if they can't stay for the whole thing be good for your business? I'll repeat what I said before- be careful what you wish for.
<< <i>I attend a show that is not coin related that has a several year waiting list to get a table. Leave that show early and you lose your right of retention and you go to the bottom of the list. >>
Non coin related shows (some of them, anyway) charge multiples of what coin shows charge for attendance, too. Unless a show is coin related, drawing conclusions from that show and relating them to coin shows is probably questionable.
edited to add... this is my own personal opinion so I have no facts to back it up, but I believe show promoters need dealers more than dealers need show promoters.
<< <i>Supposing you were a promoter- what do you think? Would encouraging dealers to not come to your show at all if they can't stay for the whole thing be good for your business? I'll repeat what I said before- be careful what you wish for. >>
Most of the time "don't feel like it" could be substituted for "can't"
If I were a promoter encouraging dealers to be set up and ready for business for the advertised timeframe of the show would be what was best for my business in the long run. Being known as the show that dies early and is not worth attending late is what would be the worst for it.
edited to add:
Since I'm neither a dealer or a promoter, I'll watch while those who are duke it out. I will add that I see absolutely nothing wrong with promoters offering perks or discounts to those who stay for the full term of the show.
<< <i>
<< <i>I've suggested this in the past. Offer the vacated tables to small local B&M dealers, vest pocket dealers, and collectors at a sharply reduced table fee. Some of the big dealers may even stick around to cherry pick the smaller dealers. >>
Sounds like a pretty good idea to me. >>
I have to concur with PerryHall, ColonialCoinUnion, and Tassa 100%. ILNA has tried this with their show with some success and has, for the most part, continue to do this.
<< <i>Most of the time "don't feel like it" could be substituted for "can't" >>
Whatever. Doesn't change the question.
<< <i>Being known as the show that dies early and is not worth attending late is what would be the worst for it. >>
Would being known as the show that lots of dealers don't want to attend at all be a good thing?
<< <i>Would being known as the show that lots of dealers don't want to attend at all be a good thing? >>
We can debate this all night but there really is no point. Dealers will do lots of things they don't want to if they are making money at it. That's the real bottom line, if the show is profitable enough for them they will be there. They may complain and come here portraying promoters as evil but if they are making good money at the show they will be there.
There becomes a point when customers stop coming in and making it worth the time and effort to be there. I do local shows and have never been the first to leave, but some shows are simply not worth the time and effort to be there. The largest show I have done is a three day show in Milwaukee, WI (April or May depending on the schedule). I have hung around 'til the end most every time I have been there, and it simply isn't worth the effort to stay two to three hours longer than most. My time could be better spent getting ready for the next day ,or taking a nap.
I understand some collectors have to come in late, but for some odd reason the later customers just don't make it worth the stay.
When my wife and I went to Schaumburg on Saturday (as spectators), it was pretty slow, and we heard multiple dealers stating the coin show was dead and they seems not to like the local.
PNG day was better and there were only about one-third the amount of dealers, as compared to Saturday.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>We can debate this all night but there really is no point. Dealers will do lots of things they don't want to if they are making money at it. >>
I believe I already made this point:
"Perhaps if the show promoter had spent the time and money involved in documenting dealers who left early on attracting more retail customers to the show instead so that dealers were doing enough business that they wouldn't have time to even think about leaving before the end of the show, the filming exercise might have not been needed?"
<< <i>That's the real bottom line, if the show is profitable enough for them they will be there. >>
That's about it.
<< <i>They may complain and come here portraying promoters as evil but if they are making good money at the show they will be there. >>
That's about it again. One thing you can bet on- if dealers are making money, they'll stay just about as long as there are buyers.
So- is *your* show like that?
<< <i>That's about it again. One thing you can bet on- if dealers are making money, they'll stay just about as long as there are buyers. >>
Yeah but that brings up that nasty chicken or egg question again. Are there no buyers late in the show because dealers leave early or do dealers leave early because there are no buyers?
Don't get me wrong here, I'm not a dealer hater and am far from that but I'm not a promoter hater either. It takes 3 parties to make a show with the third being buyers. I see nothing wrong with encouraging dealers to stay for the entirety of the show. I'd prefer we did not "discipline" those who don't but rather "reward" those who do.
<< <i>Someone paying for entrance on Sunday afternoon should be able to see all the dealers who signed up for the show. >>
This.
Or get a rebate to the tune of the proportion of dealers who have packed up.
Mark
Discover all unpredictable errors before they occur.
<< <i>point being... its the colletors fault... if there was real business going on the dealers would make a bigger effort to stay... >>
I'm not saying this translates to a regional/national show, but the coin club I used to belong to puts on an annual show. It's a weekend show (Saturday/Sunday), and on Sundays, if the floor is busy, the dealers typically stay until the end of the show but if it's slow, they leave early.
You can take from this whatever you will.
Its time to totally reinvent the coin show and make it entertaining and worth coming out for....
<< <i>
<< <i>point being... its the colletors fault... if there was real business going on the dealers would make a bigger effort to stay... >>
I'm not saying this translates to a regional/national show, but the coin club I used to belong to puts on an annual show. It's a weekend show (Saturday/Sunday), and on Sundays, if the floor is busy, the dealers typically stay until the end of the show but if it's slow, they leave early.
You can take from this whatever you will. >>
The few (and best) dealers i know are usually the last to pack up and are generally being
ordered out of the building by the lock-up crew.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I've suggested this in the past. Offer the vacated tables to small local B&M dealers, vest pocket dealers, and collectors at a sharply reduced table fee. Some of the big dealers may even stick around to cherry pick the smaller dealers. >>
Sounds like a pretty good idea to me. >>
I have to concur with PerryHall, ColonialCoinUnion, and Tassa 100%. ILNA has tried this with their show with some success and has, for the most part, continue to do this. >>
+1
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>
<< <i>Surely if the shows brought in enough retail traffic on Saturday and Sundays, dealers would stay, perhaps not all, but many would.
- Ian >>
Perhaps collectors don't attend on those days because they know most of the dealers will be packing to leave or will have already left. >>
When I first started attending shows, about 7 years ago, I would attend on Sunday. I quickly learned not to as so many of the dealers weren't there.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Its not that simple, dealers who are smaller and on limitted budget or other "day" jobs have to leave at times that might be earlier than show close... yet they try.... the bigger dealers leave and then leave some kid with a few eagles in the case to "be" at the show.... point being... its the colletors fault... if there was real business going on the dealers would make a bigger effort to stay... >>
''
No kidding! Those EVIL collectors! It's all their fault! Heck, I bet the show as heavily promoted, dealers brought ALL their wares and were pleasant to deal with and had great prices, but it was all the collectors' fault!
Makes sense to me!
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Its real simple. Charge the dealers an extra $200 per show. On Sunday, walk thru and hand out two $100 bills to whichever dealers are still there. Whatever is not handed out, do drawings in gift certificates valid that day only to the collectors who showed up. >>
Brilliant!!! :-D
Its time to totally reinvent the coin show and make it entertaining and worth coming out for....
Not that I know anything about boat shows, but my understanding is that most areas have them once a year, so attending the boat show is a special event.
On the other hand, it seems like there's a big regional/national coin show every other weekend.
I can understand why a dealer who goes to 15 to 20 big shows (plus auctions) per year would want to leave early if the show is quiet and I can understand why most coin shows only have one or two busy days, no matter how many days the show is scheduled for.
I may live in a coin show "rich" environment, but in a give year I could go to Baltimore/Philly three times, Parsippany up to 12 times and a smaller, local show just about every weekend for nine months (and that doesn't even count FUN or ANA or Central States, etc.)- why would I possibly think that any coin show would be "special" enough to spend two or three days there.
Check out the Southern Gold Society
<< <i>
<< <i>Its real simple. Charge the dealers an extra $200 per show. On Sunday, walk thru and hand out two $100 bills to whichever dealers are still there. Whatever is not handed out, do drawings in gift certificates valid that day only to the collectors who showed up. >>
Brilliant!!! :-D >>
that would be appropriate incentive for the behavior that is desired by everyone, subsidized only by those who cut out early, and they willingly accept the penalty. Perfect.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>
<< <i>At the CSNS show yesterday afternoon, two guys were driving a cart up and down the aisles with a video camera.
Were they looking for coin thieves???
NOOOOOOOOO. >>
It was Google staff updating Google Earth, to better navigate the show.
That is pretty darn funny
A guy who steals three coins is let go and dealers are harrassed for not having a badge on. Weeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
On a side note this Central States show was the least favorite show I've ever attended. It was a rally killer.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>if the show is good, then yes stay. if its dead seeeeeee ya. its a judgment thing ( for what its worth ) >>
I agree with this. If its a good day and busy and all then I see it that dealers should stay to the end. If its dead and nothing is really going on and low attendance. I see no reason to stay and they should go early if they choose ( even from a buyer end ). If its so slow that dealers want to leave early if i show up late Im sure im already feeling like ive wasted my time before I start looking at whomever is left. If the vibe isnt there buyers will have a negative feeling before seeing whos left and who is staying.
I also subscribe to If I pay , Ill be there as long as I care to be. You got my 100$ or whatever the cost was. If it isnt working for me I should have a right to cut my losses at some point.
On the other side of the issue I have a problem with dealers who pick up and leave on Friday afternoon of a Thursday to Sunday show. I think that they should stay at least until the middle of Saturday afternoon. If they don’t then they do deserve some sort of penalty.
From having worked plenty of the HOME shows in another business, those contractual rules basically apply there, too. Vendors are stuck in the middle of the public and the promoters. It's a squeeze play. A tough place to play. We can't just pack up and leave until the show is over.
I do understand the promoters' point of view. They've made a public commitment to have X amount of dealers and there has to be an attempt at enforcement of the contractual obligation. (That's the key). There ought to be an "early out clause" written into the contract, in the event a dealer has travel , a show is slow, sickness , or injury.
Food for thought, if applicable.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
The successful shows are going to be those in areas of the country with strong collector bases where people do not have to travel too far and that are not already saturated with coin shows. I heard many good things about the recent one that Charmy "the penny lady" covered in the northwest.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
1. Frankly I think that free admission shows aren't necessarily a good thing. I understand the philosophy of attracting people with no admission charge- and perhaps that's OK for a really small show or a new show trying to build a following... but aside from helping defray costs, admission fees help shake out tire kickers. I was at a show not too long ago and saw a local guy with a rep as a windjammer who was raising a huge stink about having to pay a whole $1.
Go to any high end antique/collectible/car/boat/train show and they charge anywhere from $5 to $20, no one complains about the fee, and they pack the place with serious buyers of quality material. Also, at most of those higher end shows, attendance until closing time is mandatory- and many have a waiting list of dealers willing to take your spot if you break the rules... but few if any do- because they're all having a good show.
We used to put on a Civil War show in Indianapolis with a $5 admit fee and averaged maybe two or three complaints over three days per show for 8 years, and that was either because they didn't bother to read the newspaper ad stating the fee or they were just casually driving by and looking to kill time browsing around.
I guess my point is that if the collector already has a little skin in the game then he's a)more likely to buy something and b) less likely to want to hang at your table talking about what Grandma had or giving you a date by date breakdown of how and where he acquired his Memorial cent collection. And, in return, having better quality buyers incentivizes dealer attendance for the duration of the show.
2. Sundays are simply a pain for many dealers, no question- especially those who need to travel significant miles to get home and/or those who came strictly to trade with other dealers and have already done all of the business they're going to do at the show. Let those guys leave, and offer a reduced Sunday table rate for those wishing to stay the extra day or set up Sunday only.
Also-you could make Sunday a no-admission fee day so the incoming public doesn't complain about paying to see less dealers. If they want to see the whole roster, they can pay the admission fee and come Saturday. As was stated before, if it is packed Sunday, the dealers who are there to sell OTC are going to stay anyway so it's a non issue. But I can't see forcing anyone to stay on Sunday if they came to do wholesale only and/or there is absolutely nothing going on.
3. Eliminating Sunday and making it a Friday/Saturday show with slightly shorter Saturday hours and mandatory attendance until close both days is something that many organizations are doing or considering. That way out of town dealers have plenty of time to get home and collectors can't complain about guys leaving early.
4. Have a table agreement that CLEARLY spells out everything that you're agreeing to by renting a table. Many I see have a line for how many tables you want, followed by a paragraph of liability disclaimers- and maybe one sentence about attendance or early departure, if any.
Also, to the person who wanted a cut of the admission fee for staying...trust me on this because I know first hand; show promoters don't get rich from admission fees. They help defray some of the cost and that's about all. Even with the higher fee shows-they are usually held in more costly venues so it's a wash in that regard.
Edit for syntax.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>I believe most dealers will remain where there are buyers. Maybe this whole problem lies on the shoulders of the buyers. >>
Really? Which buyers would that be? The one's who have been conditioned to come early, did just that and spent their money or the "buyers" who did not show up at all? Or perhaps you are suggesting something like a buyer lottery take place with a certain amount being permitted to come on each day spread out over the entire show? Please explain how the buyers are at fault. I paid $100 for two, including myself to get into Baltimore on Thursday at 10AM for the 2 hour early buyers session on the first day and spent thousands. Did I do something wrong? Am I at fault?
<< <i>
<< <i>I believe most dealers will remain where there are buyers. Maybe this whole problem lies on the shoulders of the buyers. >>
Really? Which buyers would that be? The one's who have been conditioned to come early, did just that and spent their money or the "buyers" who did not show up at all? Or perhaps you are suggesting something like a buyer lottery take place with a certain amount being permitted to come on each day spread out over the entire show? Please explain how the buyers are at fault. I paid $100 for two, including myself to get into Baltimore on Thursday at 10AM for the 2 hour early buyers session on the first day and spent thousands. Did I do something wrong? Am I at fault? >>
Early bird gets the worm. No worms, no birds. Fewer buyers near the end of the show will result in fewer sellers. Simple mathmatics. It is what it is.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
Why do I haved to wait for John Doe customer!
Maybe John is NOT worth waiting for!
Maybe my time is more important to me that to John Doe?
Maybe my safety is more important that John Doe?
I understant that for a great coin show there needs to be a good selection of coin dealers and customer both.
If show attendeance looks like this
Friday 5,000
Saturday 8,000
Sunday 500
Why stay sunday spending an extra night hotel expense over $100.00 and food expense.
And what is my time worth per hour (HOURLY RATE lets use your pay rate)
What do dealers see on sundays?????? That they haven't seen on the first 2 days?
However I always stay to the end, but that is just me. I understand why other dealers leave early. The last minute crowd seems less educated, rude and spend MUCH less tht those attending the frist 2 days.
Central States Numismatic Society
Their website shows that the show was from April 16th-21st (Saturday), with the 16th just being there for the security room, 17th for setup/lot viewing, 18th for the PNG day, 19th for the public, 20th for the public, 21st for the public, and the 22nd just for removing merchandise by 1pm.
<< <i>As a dealer I ask this questions?
Why do I haved to wait for John Doe customer!
Maybe John is NOT worth waiting for!
Maybe my time is more important to me that to John Doe?
Maybe my safety is more important that John Doe?
I understant that for a great coin show there needs to be a good selection of coin dealers and customer both.
If show attendeance looks like this
Friday 5,000
Saturday 8,000
Sunday 500
Why stay sunday spending an extra night hotel expense over $100.00 and food expense.
And what is my time worth per hour (HOURLY RATE lets use your pay rate)
What do dealers see on sundays?????? That they haven't seen on the first 2 days?
However I always stay to the end, but that is just me. I understand why other dealers leave early. The last minute crowd seems less educated, rude and spend MUCH less tht those attending the frist 2 days. >>
You should be able to run your business as you see fit. I don't think anyone is telling you otherwise but want you to know there may be consequences as a result. I don't argue against that but some will and have. My point is though that the same thing applies to the promoters and this thread was started to bash them for doing just what most of the dealers feel they have the right to do "run their business as they see fit to". I am playing devils advocate here but it is the promoters sandbox and the owner of the sandbox gets to make the rules. You have the right to decide if you can live with those rules or not, ie "play in the sandbox". If promoters choose to treat dealers better who attend the entire show that is their business and falls under the purview of running their business as they see fit so there is no reason to bash them over it. This is especially true of those who think they should be able to leave when they wish because they paid for the table. The promoter paid for the convention center so they get to decide who gets in and for what price. They also have to live with any consequences of any bad decision they make in that regard.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>When you start forcing customers to buy or forcing sellers sell there no longer is a "market." >>
I don't think anyone is "forcing" anyone to do anything. If you know the deal and make your decision based upon what the deal is there is no "forcing" of anything.
<< <i>
<< <i>When you start forcing customers to buy or forcing sellers sell there no longer is a "market." >>
I don't think anyone is "forcing" anyone to do anything. If you know the deal and make your decision based upon what the deal is there is no "forcing" of anything. >>
My bad, I thought this thread was about requiring dealers to stay on the floor regardless of their desire to leave.
Simple solution. Lock the door on Sunday and nobody leaves til closing time.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat