Well gut said he wanted to do it today and I don't get off work till 2pm so it will be later on a night with update. I still might not buy them, but have a question for you guys. Do it really matter if they a slab as group like cert. numbers in order, cause if I get them I'm not gonna be able to send in the whole group right away. If not I want to slab the ones the everyones the most concerned with so we can make this a learning experiance as magikbilly put it. If the cert numbers in order bring a premium worth waiting I will, you guys tell me and I listen, if I get them once again.
<< <i>Well gut said he wanted to do it today and I don't get off work till 2pm so it will be later on a night with update. I still might not buy them, but have a question for you guys. Do it really matter if they a slab as group like cert. numbers in order, cause if I get them I'm not gonna be able to send in the whole group right away. If not I want to slab the ones the everyones the most concerned with so we can make this a learning experiance as magikbilly put it. If the cert numbers in order bring a premium worth waiting I will, you guys tell me and I listen, if I get them once again. >>
Hi
To me, no. Learning is best done slow - so you might hold off until you can send them in at once if desired. After 2pm - great! Hairlines HATE daylight! If I could do one thing with you tonight it would be to examine them in as many different light sources as I could, rotating them all the while. Assuming there is no cleaning, color funniness, other problems etc - hairlines and rub could be your undoing. Meet in a diner - they have 3 or 4 light sources and the window. Bring a friend too. Look for impaired mirrors and rub by reflecting the coin nearly vertically on the white placement. Look for cloudiness that is not tone. Look for "color" that is not tone on high spots - ah, there's the rub
Good luck! Eric
PS - don't forget to ask for 10% off as he lost the packaging.
If I lived within easy driving distance, I'd want to take a look at these coins myself.
Be very careful. There appears to be wear on Liberty's leg on several of the coins. It's possible that's just the result of bad photography; but, I doubt it.
<< <i>If I lived within easy driving distance, I'd want to take a look at these coins myself.
Be very careful. There appears to be wear on Liberty's leg on several of the coins. It's possible that's just the result of bad photography; but, I doubt it. >>
Thats what I kinda seen too but I pulled up photograde in comparison ( I know BS is NOT PR) but seen that same type of look on the ms graded seated dollaron photograde as what appears on the knee in his photos. I blew his photo up on My 40 inch screen BTW to get the best possible look at them. This is also why I decided distance was close enough to try attempting to make a dael with this guy and look at them. Plus how many 1872 sets are really out there, This is the 3rd one I ever seen, heritage got like 69,000+ for a raw set in like 2008 I think and thought his asking price is definitely worth the look. Can any one else give me a opinion on the certifaction being consecutive bring a premium cause if I get them I definitily will have them graded but $500-$600 in grading fees will availble if I purcahse this set right away, but a few could be done.
and do you have a buy price, value (or other plan) if they do show wear or cleaning, or? Or if just a few of them do. and how to determine 100% that they are proof coins?
seems by the comments on the pictures posted, most think there is wear (altered proofs...)
So, maybe instead of thinking about what you will do after you buy them (grade all at once or not - seems like a small concern) more time should be spent planning to buy them right. (not an expert or even a half of that, just sharing some thoughts.)
<< <i>and do you have a buy price, value (or other plan) if they do show wear or cleaning, or? Or if just a few of them do. and how to determine 100% that they are proof coins?
seems by the comments on the pictures posted, most think there is wear (altered proofs...)
So, maybe instead of thinking about what you will do after you buy them (grade all at once or not - seems like a small concern) more time should be spent planning to buy them right. (not an expert or even a half of that, just sharing some thoughts.) >>
Telling if they or proofs or not will not be to hard, But no I don't have a back up by plan because I know this guy is not going any lower and I will just have to pass. Good thing about that is it will only cost me gas money and maybe a bite to eat to go look at these and I'll have had a good time personaly this is a hobby for me like I said before the money spent would other wise go to some form of entertainment or purchases. I can have my wishful thinking of one day scoring big or in the mean time just have fun.
Magikbilly where is can I get these imaged in cali cause i'm not gonna want to let them out my sight except to send them to PCGS or put them in the SDB when I'm done playing after I get these if I do.
why don't you see if there are any forum members living in your area? That way you could possibly hire one of them just for a hours time to come with you and look at the coins.
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<< <i>Magikbilly where is can I get these imaged in cali cause i'm not gonna want to let them out my sight except to send them to PCGS or put them in the SDB when I'm done playing after I get these if I do. >>
Ask around in here - I bet there is someone in your neck of the woods but you might have to wait for a show or something. I'd be looking at Heritage and other 1872 Proofs in quantity right about now... He who spoke of a plan is on the right track!
<< <i>why don't you see if there are any forum members living in your area? That way you could possibly hire one of them just for a hours time to come with you and look at the coins. >>
I would appreciate extra set of eyes on these but I just don't think I would be comfortable doing something like that. Like I said it will be no real loss even if I buy them and the are not what they should be, because I am doing this for a hobby and really how many complete sets are really still together for this year. I'm actually probaly gonna pass if I can't find it to be comfortable to buy them and if I do buy them that means I feel happy with the coins. Then I will share them with the group here and hope the can be as excited as me but that usually is not always the case. Thanks for the suggestion.
<< <i>If I lived within easy driving distance, I'd want to take a look at these coins myself.
Be very careful. There appears to be wear on Liberty's leg on several of the coins. It's possible that's just the result of bad photography; but, I doubt it. >>
Thats what I kinda seen too but I pulled up photograde in comparison ( I know BS is NOT PR) but seen that same type of look on the ms graded seated dollaron photograde as what appears on the knee in his photos. I blew his photo up on My 40 inch screen BTW to get the best possible look at them. This is also why I decided distance was close enough to try attempting to make a dael with this guy and look at them. Plus how many 1872 sets are really out there, This is the 3rd one I ever seen, heritage got like 69,000+ for a raw set in like 2008 I think and thought his asking price is definitely worth the look. Can any one else give me a opinion on the certifaction being consecutive bring a premium cause if I get them I definitily will have them graded but $500-$600 in grading fees will availble if I purcahse this set right away, but a few could be done. >>
Respectfully, I don't think you are ready to buy raw proofs. You shouldn't need Photograde or any other resource. You should have enough experience to know what you are looking at immediately.
Perhaps this set is wholesome and gradable, perhaps not. Even if the larger coins are impaired, you might make out OK in the unlikely event that some of the minor coins went PR67. However, I don't think you will be able to determine that with any degree of confidence and you will essentially be gambling. If the dollar is impaired, it's worth about $1000. If the half is impaired, it's worth about $500.
If I were you, I'd offer to take these coins on consignment for the seller's asking price. Have them all graded. If they don't grade right, crack them out and return them to the consignor.
<< <i>If I lived within easy driving distance, I'd want to take a look at these coins myself.
Be very careful. There appears to be wear on Liberty's leg on several of the coins. It's possible that's just the result of bad photography; but, I doubt it. >>
Thats what I kinda seen too but I pulled up photograde in comparison ( I know BS is NOT PR) but seen that same type of look on the ms graded seated dollaron photograde as what appears on the knee in his photos. I blew his photo up on My 40 inch screen BTW to get the best possible look at them. This is also why I decided distance was close enough to try attempting to make a dael with this guy and look at them. Plus how many 1872 sets are really out there, This is the 3rd one I ever seen, heritage got like 69,000+ for a raw set in like 2008 I think and thought his asking price is definitely worth the look. Can any one else give me a opinion on the certifaction being consecutive bring a premium cause if I get them I definitily will have them graded but $500-$600 in grading fees will availble if I purcahse this set right away, but a few could be done. >>
Respectfully, I don't think you are ready to buy raw proofs. You shouldn't need Photograde or any other resource. You should have enough experience to know what you are looking at immediately.
Perhaps this set is wholesome and gradable, perhaps not. Even if the larger coins are impaired, you might make out OK in the unlikely event that some of the minor coins went PR67. However, I don't think you will be able to determine that with any degree of confidence and you will essentially be gambling. If the dollar is impaired, it's worth about $1000. If the half is impaired, it's worth about $500.
If I were you, I'd offer to take these coins on consignment for the seller's asking price. Have them all graded. If they don't grade right, crack them out and return them to the consignor. >>
Hey
You have heard this general advice before - I think it good this time around and last. You were got by lucky with the 50C. Some of your comments show that are early in your arc - that's good - more time to learn! Its all vantage
Complete set of 1872's? Frankly, there's nothing obvious in the description of this group that confirms it's an original set of coins. It almost seems like the seller has carefully worded things to cover both possibilities. And besides, an original set kept intact from day 1 really only has a premium assigned if the coins are in fairly high grade and totally original (ie PF63 or better imo). Anyone along the way could put together a proof set with coins displaying somewhat similar toning. There are far more of these out there than completely original sets. And unless someone has some original paperwork, mint packaging, or the silver coins are identically toned, then there is no way to prove it's an orig set. All US coins from the mint are "original" US coins (ie authentic). The term "original" means diff things to diff folks. What I find interesting is that the seller says: the lovely toning of the silver coins attests to the fact that all coins "were matched" for their original reflective surfaces and similar toning characteristics. . Why would anyone need to "match" anything unless the set was put together later on? And fwiw the toning isn't exactly "lovely." If an 1872 proof set is bringing $69,000 at Heritage, it's not because they are an original set, but primarily because they are in superb gem condition with lovely eye appeal. A scrubbed or worn "original" 1872 proof set is nothing special. It would certainly take a back seat to a put together set of decent looking PF63's. I suspect this proof set will be a valuable learning experience.
Be very careful. There appears to be wear on Liberty's leg on several of the coins. It's possible that's just the result of bad photography; but, I doubt it.
I doubt it too. And the fact that those same disturbances show up on the reverses as well is a huge red flag (ie either patina scraped off or rub).
I have no opinion on the coins themselves, but there are screaming red flags. If the FMV of this item in the stated condition is some 3 times the asking price something is seriously wrong. Also, I don't know the OP, but if you aren't able to swing the TPG fees for these coins you can't afford the coins. Please tread carefully. The risk doesn't seem worth the reward.
<< <i>Complete set of 1872's? Frankly, there's nothing obvious in the description of this group that confirms it's an original set of coins. It almost seems like the seller has carefully worded things to cover both possibilities. And besides, an original set kept intact from day 1 really only has a premium assigned if the coins are in fairly high grade and totally original (ie PF63 or better imo). Anyone along the way could put together a proof set with coins displaying somewhat similar toning. There are far more of these out there than completely original sets. And unless someone has some original paperwork, mint packaging, or the silver coins are identically toned, then there is no way to prove it's an orig set. All US coins from the mint are "original" US coins (ie authentic). The term "original" means diff things to diff folks. What I find interesting is that the seller says: the lovely toning of the silver coins attests to the fact that all coins "were matched" for their original reflective surfaces and similar toning characteristics. . Why would anyone need to "match" anything unless the set was put together later on? And fwiw the toning isn't exactly "lovely." If an 1872 proof set is bringing $69,000 at Heritage, it's not because they are an original set, but primarily because they are in superb gem condition with lovely eye appeal. A scrubbed or worn "original" 1872 proof set is nothing special. It would certainly take a back seat to a put together set of decent looking PF63's. I suspect this proof set will be a valuable learning experience.
Be very careful. There appears to be wear on Liberty's leg on several of the coins. It's possible that's just the result of bad photography; but, I doubt it.
I doubt it too. And the fact that those same disturbances show up on the reverses as well is a huge red flag (ie either patina scraped off or rub). >>
What RoadRunner just said, 10x. RR is just getting better and better with his posts!!! The truth is in his wording - that auction wording. We all mentioned red flags - there is a chance - but SLIM! This all sounds like one of those 1936 Proof sets you see for generic price in generic Capital plastics. All white, dipped problem coins in the end. Maybe I am losing my optimism. After looking again at them, stay home I guess.
Well It didn't happen today because guy said he had a lot of work to get done by a deadline for work and tomorrow might not happen either because I have to take a trip in the opposite direction as him after I get off work and don't know now. Good news is I didn't get robbed and haven't gone threw with a bad deal as of yet but. Give me to the weekend probably saturday and I'll have a definitive answer to whats gonna happen, and yes I know I been waiting too for this to find out what hes really holding.
ps Bayard I think photo grade is a great tool and would use it regardless of my skill or expertise and know dealers who use it. I also look up date by date comparisons to look for strike similarities like weak areas on certain dates. I don't think thats a bad thing at all to use available resources.
<< <i>Well It didn't happen today because guy said he had a lot of work to get done by a deadline for work and tomorrow might not happen either because I have to take a trip in the opposite direction as him after I get off work and don't know now. Good news is I didn't get robbed and haven't gone threw with a bad deal as of yet but. Give me to the weekend probably saturday and I'll have a definitive answer to whats gonna happen, and yes I know I been waiting too for this to find out what hes really holding.
ps Bayard I think photo grade is a great tool and would use it regardless of my skill or expertise and know dealers who use it. I also look up date by date comparisons to look for strike similarities like weak areas on certain dates. I don't think thats a bad thing at all to use available resources. >>
I have owned the same copy of Photograde for 35 years. I would use it to grade a circulated coin in a series that I don't know well. It would be of absolutely no use to me regarding the proof set in question.
Regardless, my point was not that you should ignore resources, but instead that you should have a certain level of mastery before purchasing high dollar raw proofs.
<< <i>Well It didn't happen today because guy said he had a lot of work to get done by a deadline for work and tomorrow might not happen either because I have to take a trip in the opposite direction as him after I get off work and don't know now. Good news is I didn't get robbed and haven't gone threw with a bad deal as of yet but. Give me to the weekend probably saturday and I'll have a definitive answer to whats gonna happen, and yes I know I been waiting too for this to find out what hes really holding.
ps Bayard I think photo grade is a great tool and would use it regardless of my skill or expertise and know dealers who use it. I also look up date by date comparisons to look for strike similarities like weak areas on certain dates. I don't think thats a bad thing at all to use available resources. >>
I have owned the same copy of Photograde for 35 years. I would use it to grade a circulated coin in a series that I don't know well. It would be of absolutely no use to me regarding the proof set in question.
Regardless, my point was not that you should ignore resources, but instead that you should have a certain level of mastery before purchasing high dollar raw proofs. >>
Bayard I have read your posts here and respect your knowledge, you are one of a very few who i see give what I would consider good advice. I was just stating I like using available resources even when I think I'm sure of myself I feel it puts the odds in my favor. I will keep you posted now It looks like my girlfriend will be taking care of business to the north and I will be headed out tomorrow for the coins. So update will probably be around 6:00 pm unless this guys flakes again, and if thats the case i'll probably say f it, cause i've been messing with a compromise and meeting logistics since I started this post.
Seems like a lot of money to throw at something you know little about. I think you'd be much better spending the money going to a large show and looking at many slabbed Proof coins to get a good grasp on their grading for the next time an opportunity like this comes up.
People need not be insulting or just ignore my threads please.
mkman thanks for your advice it is sound. I've actually already dug up the guys info and know enough about him to feel safe, but still I value your concern.
<< <i>commoncents I take your comment as insulting.
People need not be insulting or just ignore my threads please.
mkman thanks for your advice it is sound. I've actually already dug up the guys info and know enough about him to feel safe, but still I value your concern. >>
Nobody is trying to insult you. Everyone is trying to help you. Nobody wants you to get buried.
<< <i>commoncents I take your comment as insulting.
People need not be insulting or just ignore my threads please.
mkman thanks for your advice it is sound. I've actually already dug up the guys info and know enough about him to feel safe, but still I value your concern. >>
Nobody is trying to insult you. Everyone is trying to help you. Nobody wants you to get buried. >>
Don't worry about me I'll bring a shovel. Also remember I negotiated a price that I feel comfortable with, and I buy coins to have fun. Its just comments like you can't afford these coins if you can't afford the grading costs or you don't know enough about blah blah blah that get me defensive. Two things here one nobody thought the last seated half would even get a number grade and it did, one guy even said it about right pcgs au58 to ngc ms63 that sounds about right I knew PCGS would grade it being a proof with 700 pieces minted my grade I hoped for was off but I see people GTG all the time and be off here like you they said grading is subjective. As far as affording coins and grading I am putting up a lot and $600 in grading fees for something I'm gonna be keeping if I buy can wait a few months who the hell are these people to tell me what I can afford. I see a lot of low dollar dreck posted here all the time and some people I don't even know what the hell they collect beside points on the tally sheet for making comments on a online forum. Like I said I respect you, one of the very few because in all the time I lurked here first I seen the same people know it alls who seem to have a knack for being wrong. I also seen a few newby's get chased right off the boards, way to educate people with a mob mentality. Well I'm gonna stay and I'm gonna have fun.
michigan, there's no true + or - behind consec cert #'s valid is the one and only key there
one thing that can add is all supporting papers and original container as issued...not a big boost but one in the same breathe (i snagged all the images of a all in one original 1914 proof set...it's amazing in being so complete)
i'm still hoping on the best outcome for ya too hopefully that upclose n personal with this set...your gut gives ya that ok...let's do this cry
all things should and are in life to be taken with a grain of salt...
keep us updated as i love this type of stuff...not to hijack but hey...my frankies are in and entered too...wish me luck there...
just as a note...try not to twist over any things posted in these forums...great crowd here...you'll compliment us as a crowd too. some here get twisted (lack of catnip i thinks) and end up bickering to the point of being banned...soo sad truly
everything in life is but merely on loan to us by our appreciation....lose your appreciation and see
just as a note...try not to twist over any things posted in these forums...great crowd here...you'll compliment us as a crowd too. some here get twisted (lack of catnip i thinks) and end up bickering to the point of being banned...soo sad truly >>
Your one of the good ones teddy and I did wish you luck on your grading submission I think, if I didn't well I do now. As far as bickering I try not to direct negative comments at anyone. I think I've just stated my piece about how I see some people get down, like I said before this is a hobby to me I have a real job. Coin buying will not make or break me cause I always make sure I have A shovel handy when I feel like I'm gonna get buried.
Once you settle on a price to pay, I assume you'll have the seller relist it on eBay for you to purchase so eBay doesn't lose out on the fees (and you get buyer protection), right?
TDN, coinman was kind enough to provide this Ebay link on the front page.
I wouldn't invest much time looking at strike characteristics of different years of proof coinage. These coins are struck well enough. The real issue to determine is if they are rubbed or not (ie only patina is broken on the highpoints, or metal is gone from the high points). I'd suggest looking at the Heritage auction archives for PF58 seated dollars, halves, and quarters of any date from 1858 to 1891. There probably aren't many. But from my 35 yrs of collecting unc and proof seated coinage it's very unusual (if not downright rare) to see a toned set, even an assembled set, that show large highpoint patina breaks as these coins do. And I've never been able to successfully negotiate the price of any group of 19th century proof coins before seeing them, esp. if the seller's photos are of a low quality. I've made more than my share of mistakes over the years. I never want to see anyone duplicate them if I can help it. Photograde is useless on proof coins, assuming they aren't worn. Note that the reverse of the seated quarter is heavily and uniformly patinated except for multiple "white/gray" areas around the eagle (ie that's not a weak strike issue, but a break in the color and/or metal). The market and TPG's tend to accept that on unc bust halves and quarters if the luster is full in the fields. But they would be far less forgiving on a toned proof/unc seated quarter. As always, if a collector is only buying something because they love the items, and cost is not the primary concern or of no concern, then as always... buy what you like.
Michiganboy, There are some sharp elbows on this forum at times and a few cynical know-it-alls who see rub on every GTG coin. But for the most part, there are a lot of people just trying to share knowledge. There are a handful of collectors here who provide advice and knowledge on specific series who I would never ignore. For instance, Cape on Buffs, TDN and Crypto ontrade dollars and Roadrunner on seated coinage. RR has owned some unbelievable seated coins and seen many more. I don't think there is a shred of malice in his posts to you, just friendly advice. Having said that, you indicated in an early post you were looking to buy these for the joy of owning them. That sounds like a collector to me and if you are buying them for the sheer joy of owning them, you should buy whatever you want as long as you can afford it. If however, you are looking to flip these coins, then i would re-read a number of these posts carefully before pulling the trigger. I do hope it works out, whatever you decide. It has been an interesting thread.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
Well I got the coins, so lets talk. First I will tell you what I paid $5000 trade in low grade 90%, some pucks, some early gold and a few pieces of currency then $3000 cash and obviously my time and gas. The Dollar does has rub on the knee looks like cabinet friction but really not that bad full wire rim all around and sharp strike, the quarter that RR mentioned seeing something wrong with is stunning in hand, the 2c and 1c and clean no wear or hairlines pretty much red, The rest of the coins actually are about the same no problems like wear or hairlines, only other problem I seen is shield nickel has weird yellow stuff on a around a 1/10 of the top on one side. Images from me are gonna be useless I tried and will post some but I really suck at working a camera and my camera sucks with me. Next step I'm gonna send in dollar through quarter for grades to start with.
ps I tried to go to father in laws to have him take photos but they were not home but I'm gonna try again (don't know that he'll take better photos of coins, but he's got a real nice camera and takes excellent photos of other stuff)
These are the only ones that even came close and I'm tired had a long day at work and a very long drive back and forth, OK lay into me but remember I'm sensitive
<< <i>One more thing I am gonna go ahead and say I think the dollar will at least PR60 if my half could PR58 >>
Please post some obverse photos of the Seated coins. If the dollar is impaired, you're going to need some good grades on the other coins to get your $8K worth. I hope you do.
<< <i>One more thing I am gonna go ahead and say I think the dollar will at least PR60 if my half could PR58 >>
Please post some obverse photos of the Seated coins. >>
Bayard I tried to take them but they came out blurry I am now i n my boxer and they are locked up. Hang in their you guys I'm just beat I worked all day then have been driving till about an half hour ago. But I will try again tomorrow after work, plus I have a three year old daughter and shes also a lot of work. Thats why I usually post a lot in the day cause I'm a work and sneak peaks at the forum or at night because shes winding down and so am I. What do you think of the price though with the info provided so far. I need a few 64's in the group and I think the quarter and the 3 cent silver and shield as long as I spot clean the area mentioned above on it. The dime and half dime are also gonna be good I think. To bad about the dollar but when I looked over the other coins I said what the heck I give it a go.
<< <i>I think one way or another you are going to learn a valuable lesson... >>
I hope it's valuable, as opposed to expensive. >>
Well I told what I gave in trade and cash in my post above, given the knowledge you have so far on these. How do you think I did? I've wrote up all the pcgs price guide info for ms60 to ms63 and know some of these coins are not all that valuable unless in high grade and then some still are not and the real value is in the dollar but I also think grades of some off the smaller pieces are gonna exceed what you guys think.
I'll write my opinions, but will add that I am hesitant to do so given how the PR58 thread played out.
I had noticed the ebay listing for these coins the day they were first listed and looked at the images quite carefully. The images weren't very good, but my interpretation of them was that these were lower end proof coins in the PR60-PR63 range with the smaller coins grading higher and the larger coins grading lower. Of course, that was based only upon the ebay images. Your downside on the set is rather limited if you are into it for $5,000 total or obviously a bit higher if the price was $5,000 in trade plus $3,000 in cash for $8,000 total. At $8,000 I think you will come out behind on the deal after you factor in grading and shipping fees as well as cost to acquire and I write that because PR60-63 coins of this era have significantly lower prices realized than gem proof issues. Also, I don't know that they are universally as liquid. Regardless, there is real value in this group of coins, but now you just have to figure out what that value totals.
Well tomB I appreciate you opinion, also with the dollar having that rub on the knee everything else is sharply struck and also a nick in that same area but overall its way less rubbed over then my previous half ( polishing lines was into a lot of devices and fields ) Care to guess the grade? I appreciate when time is put into articulating an opinion instead of the bluntness of others here. BTW I really think metals are gonna dump personally and am glad to wipe my hands of them in trade for some numismatic, not that I think this market is gonna take off. I just feel silver and gold will be easier to replace later and don't always have a chance at an complete early proof set.
<< <i>I think one way or another you are going to learn a valuable lesson... >>
I hope it's valuable, as opposed to expensive. >>
Well I told what I gave in trade and cash in my post above, given the knowledge you have so far on these. How do you think I did? I've wrote up all the pcgs price guide info for ms60 to ms63 and know some of these coins are not all that valuable unless in high grade and then some still are not and the real value is in the dollar but I also think grades of some off the smaller pieces are gonna exceed what you guys think. >>
You paid about what I believe a PR63 set would cost to assemble at Heritage: Dollar $3000, half $1000, quarter $750, dime $450, half dime $400, nickel $300, 3CS $600, 3CN $300, 2C $600, 1C $600 = $8000. You've got a chance to come out ahead if you get some strong grades. Good luck and best wishes.
Personally I think that you are buried by about 2-3K. However, if I were living in Monterey, I would have beat you to looking at them, I can tell you that. However, at 8K, I would have passed, enjoyed looking at them, and moved on.
You will learn from this of course, everyone does. Seeing pictures of all obverse and reverse would help to make an estimation of what you are going to get out of them.
Comments
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>Well gut said he wanted to do it today and I don't get off work till 2pm so it will be later on a night with update. I still might not buy them, but have a question for you guys. Do it really matter if they a slab as group like cert. numbers in order, cause if I get them I'm not gonna be able to send in the whole group right away. If not I want to slab the ones the everyones the most concerned with so we can make this a learning experiance as magikbilly put it. If the cert numbers in order bring a premium worth waiting I will, you guys tell me and I listen, if I get them once again. >>
Hi
To me, no. Learning is best done slow - so you might hold off until you can send them in at once if desired.
After 2pm - great! Hairlines HATE daylight! If I could do one thing with you tonight it would be to examine them in as many different light sources as I could, rotating them all the while. Assuming there is no cleaning, color funniness, other problems etc - hairlines and rub could be your undoing. Meet in a diner - they have 3 or 4 light sources and the window. Bring a friend too. Look for impaired mirrors and rub by reflecting the coin nearly vertically on the white placement. Look for cloudiness that is not tone. Look for "color" that is not tone on high spots - ah, there's the rub
Good luck!
Eric
PS - don't forget to ask for 10% off as he lost the packaging.
this really could be a learning experience - don't get them graded right away - get them imaged. Let's discuss, have a poll. Could be good.
Eric
Be very careful. There appears to be wear on Liberty's leg on several of the coins. It's possible that's just the result of bad photography; but, I doubt it.
<< <i>If I lived within easy driving distance, I'd want to take a look at these coins myself.
Be very careful. There appears to be wear on Liberty's leg on several of the coins. It's possible that's just the result of bad photography; but, I doubt it. >>
Thats what I kinda seen too but I pulled up photograde in comparison ( I know BS is NOT PR) but seen that same type of look on the ms graded seated dollaron photograde as what appears on the knee in his photos. I blew his photo up on My 40 inch screen BTW to get the best possible look at them. This is also why I decided distance was close enough to try attempting to make a dael with this guy and look at them. Plus how many 1872 sets are really out there, This is the 3rd one I ever seen, heritage got like 69,000+ for a raw set in like 2008 I think and thought his asking price is definitely worth the look. Can any one else give me a opinion on the certifaction being consecutive bring a premium cause if I get them I definitily will have them graded but $500-$600 in grading fees will availble if I purcahse this set right away, but a few could be done.
type2,CCHunter.
seems by the comments on the pictures posted, most think there is wear (altered proofs...)
So, maybe instead of thinking about what you will do after you buy them (grade all at once or not - seems like a small concern) more time should be spent planning to buy them right. (not an expert or even a half of that, just sharing some thoughts.)
<< <i>and do you have a buy price, value (or other plan) if they do show wear or cleaning, or? Or if just a few of them do. and how to determine 100% that they are proof coins?
seems by the comments on the pictures posted, most think there is wear (altered proofs...)
So, maybe instead of thinking about what you will do after you buy them (grade all at once or not - seems like a small concern) more time should be spent planning to buy them right. (not an expert or even a half of that, just sharing some thoughts.) >>
Telling if they or proofs or not will not be to hard, But no I don't have a back up by plan because I know this guy is not going any lower and I will just have to pass. Good thing about that is it will only cost me gas money and maybe a bite to eat to go look at these and I'll have had a good time personaly this is a hobby for me like I said before the money spent would other wise go to some form of entertainment or purchases. I can have my wishful thinking of one day scoring big or in the mean time just have fun.
Magikbilly where is can I get these imaged in cali cause i'm not gonna want to let them out my sight except to send them to PCGS or put them in the SDB when I'm done playing after I get these if I do.
type2,CCHunter.
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<< <i>Magikbilly where is can I get these imaged in cali cause i'm not gonna want to let them out my sight except to send them to PCGS or put them in the SDB when I'm done playing after I get these if I do. >>
Ask around in here - I bet there is someone in your neck of the woods but you might have to wait for a show or something. I'd be looking at Heritage and other 1872 Proofs in quantity right about now...
Good luck!
Eric
<< <i>why don't you see if there are any forum members living in your area? That way you could possibly hire one of them just for a hours time to come with you and look at the coins. >>
I would appreciate extra set of eyes on these but I just don't think I would be comfortable doing something like that. Like I said it will be no real loss even if I buy them and the are not what they should be, because I am doing this for a hobby and really how many complete sets are really still together for this year. I'm actually probaly gonna pass if I can't find it to be comfortable to buy them and if I do buy them that means I feel happy with the coins. Then I will share them with the group here and hope the can be as excited as me but that usually is not always the case. Thanks for the suggestion.
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>
<< <i>If I lived within easy driving distance, I'd want to take a look at these coins myself.
Be very careful. There appears to be wear on Liberty's leg on several of the coins. It's possible that's just the result of bad photography; but, I doubt it. >>
Thats what I kinda seen too but I pulled up photograde in comparison ( I know BS is NOT PR) but seen that same type of look on the ms graded seated dollaron photograde as what appears on the knee in his photos. I blew his photo up on My 40 inch screen BTW to get the best possible look at them. This is also why I decided distance was close enough to try attempting to make a dael with this guy and look at them. Plus how many 1872 sets are really out there, This is the 3rd one I ever seen, heritage got like 69,000+ for a raw set in like 2008 I think and thought his asking price is definitely worth the look. Can any one else give me a opinion on the certifaction being consecutive bring a premium cause if I get them I definitily will have them graded but $500-$600 in grading fees will availble if I purcahse this set right away, but a few could be done. >>
Respectfully, I don't think you are ready to buy raw proofs. You shouldn't need Photograde or any other resource. You should have enough experience to know what you are looking at immediately.
Perhaps this set is wholesome and gradable, perhaps not. Even if the larger coins are impaired, you might make out OK in the unlikely event that some of the minor coins went PR67. However, I don't think you will be able to determine that with any degree of confidence and you will essentially be gambling. If the dollar is impaired, it's worth about $1000. If the half is impaired, it's worth about $500.
If I were you, I'd offer to take these coins on consignment for the seller's asking price. Have them all graded. If they don't grade right, crack them out and return them to the consignor.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If I lived within easy driving distance, I'd want to take a look at these coins myself.
Be very careful. There appears to be wear on Liberty's leg on several of the coins. It's possible that's just the result of bad photography; but, I doubt it. >>
Thats what I kinda seen too but I pulled up photograde in comparison ( I know BS is NOT PR) but seen that same type of look on the ms graded seated dollaron photograde as what appears on the knee in his photos. I blew his photo up on My 40 inch screen BTW to get the best possible look at them. This is also why I decided distance was close enough to try attempting to make a dael with this guy and look at them. Plus how many 1872 sets are really out there, This is the 3rd one I ever seen, heritage got like 69,000+ for a raw set in like 2008 I think and thought his asking price is definitely worth the look. Can any one else give me a opinion on the certifaction being consecutive bring a premium cause if I get them I definitily will have them graded but $500-$600 in grading fees will availble if I purcahse this set right away, but a few could be done. >>
Respectfully, I don't think you are ready to buy raw proofs. You shouldn't need Photograde or any other resource. You should have enough experience to know what you are looking at immediately.
Perhaps this set is wholesome and gradable, perhaps not. Even if the larger coins are impaired, you might make out OK in the unlikely event that some of the minor coins went PR67. However, I don't think you will be able to determine that with any degree of confidence and you will essentially be gambling. If the dollar is impaired, it's worth about $1000. If the half is impaired, it's worth about $500.
If I were you, I'd offer to take these coins on consignment for the seller's asking price. Have them all graded. If they don't grade right, crack them out and return them to the consignor. >>
Hey
You have heard this general advice before - I think it good this time around and last. You were got by lucky with the 50C. Some of your comments show that are early in your arc - that's good - more time to learn! Its all vantage
Best wishes,
Eric
worded things to cover both possibilities. And besides, an original set kept intact from day 1 really only has a premium assigned if the coins are in fairly high grade and
totally original (ie PF63 or better imo). Anyone along the way could put together a proof set with coins displaying somewhat similar toning. There are far more of these
out there than completely original sets. And unless someone has some original paperwork, mint packaging, or the silver coins are identically toned, then there is no way
to prove it's an orig set. All US coins from the mint are "original" US coins (ie authentic). The term "original" means diff things to diff folks. What I find interesting is that the
seller says: the lovely toning of the silver coins attests to the fact that all coins "were matched" for their original reflective surfaces and similar toning characteristics. .
Why would anyone need to "match" anything unless the set was put together later on? And fwiw the toning isn't exactly "lovely." If an 1872 proof set is bringing $69,000 at
Heritage, it's not because they are an original set, but primarily because they are in superb gem condition with lovely eye appeal. A scrubbed or worn "original" 1872 proof set is
nothing special. It would certainly take a back seat to a put together set of decent looking PF63's. I suspect this proof set will be a valuable learning experience.
Be very careful. There appears to be wear on Liberty's leg on several of the coins. It's possible that's just the result of bad photography; but, I doubt it.
I doubt it too. And the fact that those same disturbances show up on the reverses as well is a huge red flag (ie either patina scraped off or rub).
<< <i>Complete set of 1872's? Frankly, there's nothing obvious in the description of this group that confirms it's an original set of coins. It almost seems like the seller has carefully
worded things to cover both possibilities. And besides, an original set kept intact from day 1 really only has a premium assigned if the coins are in fairly high grade and
totally original (ie PF63 or better imo). Anyone along the way could put together a proof set with coins displaying somewhat similar toning. There are far more of these
out there than completely original sets. And unless someone has some original paperwork, mint packaging, or the silver coins are identically toned, then there is no way
to prove it's an orig set. All US coins from the mint are "original" US coins (ie authentic). The term "original" means diff things to diff folks. What I find interesting is that the
seller says: the lovely toning of the silver coins attests to the fact that all coins "were matched" for their original reflective surfaces and similar toning characteristics. .
Why would anyone need to "match" anything unless the set was put together later on? And fwiw the toning isn't exactly "lovely." If an 1872 proof set is bringing $69,000 at
Heritage, it's not because they are an original set, but primarily because they are in superb gem condition with lovely eye appeal. A scrubbed or worn "original" 1872 proof set is
nothing special. It would certainly take a back seat to a put together set of decent looking PF63's. I suspect this proof set will be a valuable learning experience.
Be very careful. There appears to be wear on Liberty's leg on several of the coins. It's possible that's just the result of bad photography; but, I doubt it.
I doubt it too. And the fact that those same disturbances show up on the reverses as well is a huge red flag (ie either patina scraped off or rub). >>
What RoadRunner just said, 10x. RR is just getting better and better with his posts!!!
The truth is in his wording - that auction wording. We all mentioned red flags - there is a chance - but SLIM! This all sounds like one of those 1936 Proof sets you see for generic price in generic Capital plastics. All white, dipped problem coins in the end. Maybe I am losing my optimism. After looking again at them, stay home I guess.
Eric
ps Bayard I think photo grade is a great tool and would use it regardless of my skill or expertise and know dealers who use it. I also look up date by date comparisons to look for strike similarities like weak areas on certain dates. I don't think thats a bad thing at all to use available resources.
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>Well It didn't happen today because guy said he had a lot of work to get done by a deadline for work and tomorrow might not happen either because I have to take a trip in the opposite direction as him after I get off work and don't know now. Good news is I didn't get robbed and haven't gone threw with a bad deal as of yet but. Give me to the weekend probably saturday and I'll have a definitive answer to whats gonna happen, and yes I know I been waiting too for this to find out what hes really holding.
ps Bayard I think photo grade is a great tool and would use it regardless of my skill or expertise and know dealers who use it. I also look up date by date comparisons to look for strike similarities like weak areas on certain dates. I don't think thats a bad thing at all to use available resources. >>
I have owned the same copy of Photograde for 35 years. I would use it to grade a circulated coin in a series that I don't know well. It would be of absolutely no use to me regarding the proof set in question.
Regardless, my point was not that you should ignore resources, but instead that you should have a certain level of mastery before purchasing high dollar raw proofs.
<< <i>
<< <i>Well It didn't happen today because guy said he had a lot of work to get done by a deadline for work and tomorrow might not happen either because I have to take a trip in the opposite direction as him after I get off work and don't know now. Good news is I didn't get robbed and haven't gone threw with a bad deal as of yet but. Give me to the weekend probably saturday and I'll have a definitive answer to whats gonna happen, and yes I know I been waiting too for this to find out what hes really holding.
ps Bayard I think photo grade is a great tool and would use it regardless of my skill or expertise and know dealers who use it. I also look up date by date comparisons to look for strike similarities like weak areas on certain dates. I don't think thats a bad thing at all to use available resources. >>
I have owned the same copy of Photograde for 35 years. I would use it to grade a circulated coin in a series that I don't know well. It would be of absolutely no use to me regarding the proof set in question.
Regardless, my point was not that you should ignore resources, but instead that you should have a certain level of mastery before purchasing high dollar raw proofs. >>
Bayard I have read your posts here and respect your knowledge, you are one of a very few who i see give what I would consider good advice. I was just stating I like using available resources even when I think I'm sure of myself I feel it puts the odds in my favor. I will keep you posted now It looks like my girlfriend will be taking care of business to the north and I will be headed out tomorrow for the coins. So update will probably be around 6:00 pm unless this guys flakes again, and if thats the case i'll probably say f it, cause i've been messing with a compromise and meeting logistics since I started this post.
type2,CCHunter.
-Paul
<< <i>Photograde is useless on proofs. Where's the link? >>
page 3
type2,CCHunter.
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People need not be insulting or just ignore my threads please.
mkman thanks for your advice it is sound. I've actually already dug up the guys info and know enough about him to feel safe, but still I value your concern.
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>commoncents I take your comment as insulting.
People need not be insulting or just ignore my threads please.
mkman thanks for your advice it is sound. I've actually already dug up the guys info and know enough about him to feel safe, but still I value your concern. >>
Nobody is trying to insult you. Everyone is trying to help you. Nobody wants you to get buried.
<< <i>
<< <i>commoncents I take your comment as insulting.
People need not be insulting or just ignore my threads please.
mkman thanks for your advice it is sound. I've actually already dug up the guys info and know enough about him to feel safe, but still I value your concern. >>
Nobody is trying to insult you. Everyone is trying to help you. Nobody wants you to get buried. >>
Don't worry about me I'll bring a shovel. Also remember I negotiated a price that I feel comfortable with, and I buy coins to have fun. Its just comments like you can't afford these coins if you can't afford the grading costs or you don't know enough about blah blah blah that get me defensive. Two things here one nobody thought the last seated half would even get a number grade and it did, one guy even said it about right pcgs au58 to ngc ms63 that sounds about right I knew PCGS would grade it being a proof with 700 pieces minted my grade I hoped for was off but I see people GTG all the time and be off here like you they said grading is subjective. As far as affording coins and grading I am putting up a lot and $600 in grading fees for something I'm gonna be keeping if I buy can wait a few months who the hell are these people to tell me what I can afford. I see a lot of low dollar dreck posted here all the time and some people I don't even know what the hell they collect beside points on the tally sheet for making comments on a online forum. Like I said I respect you, one of the very few because in all the time I lurked here first I seen the same people know it alls who seem to have a knack for being wrong. I also seen a few newby's get chased right off the boards, way to educate people with a mob mentality. Well I'm gonna stay and I'm gonna have fun.
type2,CCHunter.
Yes. You can never, ever underestimate it's meaning.
Eric
there's no true + or - behind consec cert #'s
valid is the one and only key there
one thing that can add is all supporting papers and original container as issued...not a big boost but one in the same breathe
(i snagged all the images of a all in one original 1914 proof set...it's amazing in being so complete)
i'm still hoping on the best outcome for ya too
hopefully that upclose n personal with this set...your gut gives ya that ok...let's do this cry
all things should and are in life to be taken with a grain of salt...
keep us updated as i love this type of stuff...not to hijack but hey...my frankies are in and entered too...wish me luck there...
just as a note...try not to twist over any things posted in these forums...great crowd here...you'll compliment us as a crowd too.
some here get twisted (lack of catnip i thinks) and end up bickering to the point of being banned...soo sad truly
some here get twisted (lack of catnip i thinks) and end up bickering to the point of being banned...soo sad truly >>
Your one of the good ones teddy and I did wish you luck on your grading submission I think, if I didn't well I do now. As far as bickering I try not to direct negative comments at anyone. I think I've just stated my piece about how I see some people get down, like I said before this is a hobby to me I have a real job. Coin buying will not make or break me cause I always make sure I have A shovel handy when I feel like I'm gonna get buried.
type2,CCHunter.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 700
type2,CCHunter.
TDN, coinman was kind enough to provide this Ebay link on the front page.
I wouldn't invest much time looking at strike characteristics of different years of proof coinage. These coins are struck well enough. The real issue to determine is if they are
rubbed or not (ie only patina is broken on the highpoints, or metal is gone from the high points). I'd suggest looking at the Heritage auction archives for PF58 seated dollars,
halves, and quarters of any date from 1858 to 1891. There probably aren't many. But from my 35 yrs of collecting unc and proof seated coinage it's very
unusual (if not downright rare) to see a toned set, even an assembled set, that show large highpoint patina breaks as these coins do. And I've never been able to successfully
negotiate the price of any group of 19th century proof coins before seeing them, esp. if the seller's photos are of a low quality. I've made more than my share of mistakes over
the years. I never want to see anyone duplicate them if I can help it. Photograde is useless on proof coins, assuming they aren't worn. Note that the reverse of the seated
quarter is heavily and uniformly patinated except for multiple "white/gray" areas around the eagle (ie that's not a weak strike issue, but a break in the color and/or metal). The
market and TPG's tend to accept that on unc bust halves and quarters if the luster is full in the fields. But they would be far less forgiving on a toned proof/unc seated quarter.
As always, if a collector is only buying something because they love the items, and cost is not the primary concern or of no concern, then as always... buy what you like.
There are some sharp elbows on this forum at times and a few cynical know-it-alls who see rub on every GTG coin. But for the most part, there are a lot of people just trying to share knowledge. There are a handful of collectors here who provide advice and knowledge on
specific series who I would never ignore. For instance, Cape on Buffs, TDN and Crypto ontrade dollars and Roadrunner on seated coinage. RR has owned some unbelievable seated coins and seen many more. I don't think there is a shred of malice in his posts to you, just friendly advice.
Having said that, you indicated in an early post you were looking to buy these for the joy of owning them. That sounds like a collector to me and if you are buying them for the sheer joy of owning them, you should buy whatever you want as long as you can afford it. If however, you are looking to flip these coins, then i would re-read a number of these posts carefully before pulling the trigger. I do hope it works out, whatever you decide. It has been an interesting thread.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
grade 90%, some pucks, some early gold and a few pieces of currency then $3000 cash and obviously my time and gas. The Dollar does has rub on the knee looks like cabinet friction but really not that bad full wire rim all around and sharp strike, the quarter that RR mentioned seeing something wrong with is stunning in hand, the 2c and 1c and clean no wear or hairlines pretty much red, The rest of the coins actually are about the same no problems like wear or hairlines, only other problem I seen is shield nickel has weird yellow stuff on a around a 1/10 of the top on one side. Images from me are gonna be useless I tried and will post some but I really suck at working a camera and my camera sucks with me. Next step I'm gonna send in dollar through quarter for grades to start with.
ps I tried to go to father in laws to have him take photos but they were not home but I'm gonna try again (don't know that he'll take better photos of coins, but he's got a real nice camera and takes excellent photos of other stuff)
These are the only ones that even came close and I'm tired had a long day at work and a very long drive back and forth, OK lay into me but remember I'm sensitive
type2,CCHunter.
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>One more thing I am gonna go ahead and say I think the dollar will at least PR60 if my half could PR58 >>
Please post some obverse photos of the Seated coins. If the dollar is impaired, you're going to need some good grades on the other coins to get your $8K worth. I hope you do.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
<< <i>
<< <i>One more thing I am gonna go ahead and say I think the dollar will at least PR60 if my half could PR58 >>
Please post some obverse photos of the Seated coins. >>
Bayard I tried to take them but they came out blurry I am now i n my boxer and they are locked up. Hang in their you guys I'm just beat I worked all day then have been driving till about an half hour ago. But I will try again tomorrow after work, plus I have a three year old daughter and shes also a lot of work. Thats why I usually post a lot in the day cause I'm a work and sneak peaks at the forum or at night because shes winding down and so am I. What do you think of the price though with the info provided so far. I need a few 64's in the group and I think the quarter and the 3 cent silver and shield as long as I spot clean the area mentioned above on it. The dime and half dime are also gonna be good I think. To bad about the dollar but when I looked over the other coins I said what the heck I give it a go.
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>I think one way or another you are going to learn a valuable lesson... >>
I hope it's valuable, as opposed to expensive.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think one way or another you are going to learn a valuable lesson... >>
I hope it's valuable, as opposed to expensive. >>
Well I told what I gave in trade and cash in my post above, given the knowledge you have so far on these. How do you think I did? I've wrote up all the pcgs price guide info for ms60 to ms63 and know some of these coins are not all that valuable unless in high grade and then some still are not and the real value is in the dollar but I also think grades of some off the smaller pieces are gonna exceed what you guys think.
type2,CCHunter.
I had noticed the ebay listing for these coins the day they were first listed and looked at the images quite carefully. The images weren't very good, but my interpretation of them was that these were lower end proof coins in the PR60-PR63 range with the smaller coins grading higher and the larger coins grading lower. Of course, that was based only upon the ebay images. Your downside on the set is rather limited if you are into it for $5,000 total or obviously a bit higher if the price was $5,000 in trade plus $3,000 in cash for $8,000 total. At $8,000 I think you will come out behind on the deal after you factor in grading and shipping fees as well as cost to acquire and I write that because PR60-63 coins of this era have significantly lower prices realized than gem proof issues. Also, I don't know that they are universally as liquid. Regardless, there is real value in this group of coins, but now you just have to figure out what that value totals.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I think one way or another you are going to learn a valuable lesson... >>
I hope it's valuable, as opposed to expensive. >>
Well I told what I gave in trade and cash in my post above, given the knowledge you have so far on these. How do you think I did? I've wrote up all the pcgs price guide info for ms60 to ms63 and know some of these coins are not all that valuable unless in high grade and then some still are not and the real value is in the dollar but I also think grades of some off the smaller pieces are gonna exceed what you guys think. >>
You paid about what I believe a PR63 set would cost to assemble at Heritage: Dollar $3000, half $1000, quarter $750, dime $450, half dime $400, nickel $300, 3CS $600, 3CN $300, 2C $600, 1C $600 = $8000. You've got a chance to come out ahead if you get some strong grades. Good luck and best wishes.
You will learn from this of course, everyone does. Seeing pictures of all obverse and reverse would help to make an estimation of what you are going to get out of them.
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
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