eBay ended hundreds of our listings :(

JohnMaben · April 16, 2012 7:27AM

This past weekend I received an email from my eBay manager informing me that ebay had ended hundreds of our listings that were up at our OGPworld division. For those of you that are not familiar with what OGPworld sells you can go to ogpworld.com and click on the ogpworld video link. Here is the reason given for removal:

Unfortunately, we had to remove your listing because of the following:
You listed a COA without the accompanying item the COA is authenticating. Sellers may not list blank Certificates of Authenticity (COAs) or sell COAs as stand-alone items. Please do not relist this item.
We appreciate that you chose to list this item on our site and understand there was no ill intent on your part.
Your listing fees have been credited to your account.
If you happen to see any listings you may feel violate this or another policy, please use the "Report Item" link in the listing and we will gladly review your report.
Autographed items are unique in that they can be highly valuable and easily forged. As part of our effort to keep the online marketplace safe for buyers and sellers of autographs, we've developed a number of policies to regulate the sale of these items. For example, sellers are not permitted to:

- List blank Certificates of Authenticity (COAs) or sell COAs as stand-alone items
- Refer in their listings to examinations or COAs issued by any person or company included in the list of unacceptable authenticators in the Autographed Items policy.

For more information on this eBay policy and to view the "Unacceptable Authenticators" list, please go to:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/autographs.html
Click the "Additional Information" link.

Please note: violation of this or other eBay policies may result in forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings, limits on account privileges and account suspension.
You can review our list of prohibited and restricted items here:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/items-ov.html
If you have any more questions, contact our policy experts. Get started by clicking the link below.
http://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ContactCS&Query=1338&Domain=Homer_EOA&From=163954

We appreciate your understanding.
Thanks,
eBay

I responded with this but they aren't budging so far:

We have a MAJOR problem. It looks like eBay just removed (300+) the majority of listings from our latest division, OGP World on the basis that COA’s cannot be sold apart from the item. This is common place in coins. Unlike art, the coins that accompany these COA’s are not unique (they exist in vast quantity) and the coins themselves are not numbered thus the COA was never intended to be unique to a specific coin but rather a generic component of the OGP. OGP World offers original gov’t packaging also known as OGP (which includes COA’s) for many modern coins where the owner of the coin has either lost or has damaged packaging or bought it from a seller that never included it in the first place.

We are completely baffled. Please relay our concerns and rectify so that OGPworld may continue its eBay operations.

As a side note, before resurrecting this division, OGPworld operated several years back on eBay with no issues whatsoever. The only reason we stopped was because we lost the two staff members that headed it up. Having sold thousands of pieces of OGP (that includes COA) on eBay and elsewhere to collectors and dealers we only ever encountered just a single crack pot individual that ranted and raved that it was unethical. He did not understand that the COA’s are mass produced as are the coins and specific COA’s do not pertain to specific coins. Selling the OGP with COA does not enable fraudulent activity because there is NOTHING that identifies THAT coin as going with THAT COA….

In 30+ years in the coin business I have never once heard of any scam that involved coin COA’s. Other areas of collectibles, perhaps more likely due to the fact that each is unique, but not coins.

John Maben

What do YOU think? I believe that counterfeiting COA's is reprehensible but selling genuine COA's as part of genuine OGP??? Should the problems that occur in other areas such as art be used as a basis for applying this policy to coins?

morbidsteve · April 16, 2012 7:30AM

Not trying to get into an argument here, but it seems pretty cut and dry. You cannot sell COAs without the attached item. I understand both sides of this argument but if they enforce it as policy, unfortunately there is nothing you can do.

Placid · April 16, 2012 7:36AM

You try to recoup some of the cost of grading by selling the leftover packaging and eBay says no.
That sucks

georgiacop50 · April 16, 2012 7:40AM

Ain't ebay something?

epcjimi1 · April 16, 2012 7:42AM

<< What do YOU think? >>

I think what goes around comes around. MHO.

JamesMurray · April 16, 2012 7:46AM

Ebay dont want C.O.A's without the actual item it authenticates ? Fair enough i would think.

secondrepublic · April 16, 2012 7:50AM

why don't you identify it as PACKAGING and don't use the words "certificate of authenticity"?

HalfStrike · April 16, 2012 8:23AM

If you look at this from the opposite end, Ebay doesn't require coins that sold with COAs to only be sold with them, thus we have a gazzilion COAs floating around.

TwoSides2aCoin · April 16, 2012 8:26AM

Where's my Free Shipping ?

epcjimi1 · April 16, 2012 8:27AM

<< If you look at this from the opposite end, Ebay doesn't require coins that sold with COAs to only be sold with them, thus we have a gazzilion COAs floating around. >>

Spin it.

lcoopie · April 16, 2012 8:27AM

perhaps call it something else and have a photo

Staircoins · April 16, 2012 8:34AM

<< why don't you identify it as PACKAGING and don't use the words "certificate of authenticity"? >>

This.

JohnMaben · April 16, 2012 8:41AM

I truly appreciate all comments regardless of which side of the fence you are on. It's a great way to gain additional insight. I am coming at this from a dealer's point of view where I dare say I do not know any of my peers who have not bought, sold, or exchanged COA's at some point.

However, even from a collector's viewpoint I do believe they should be able to obtain complete OGP on eBay. How can I tell a collector that is missing the OGP, "sorry I can sell you the OGP, but I can't sell you the COA that came with the OGP"?

BTW, epcjimi1 has it out for me for reasons completely unknown to me, (go back and read the 4th response) and has expressed this inappropriately by his off color remarks on the forum instead of confronting me directly with whatever his issues are.... if you have a problem with me be a man and call me or PM me.

John

MsMorrisine · April 16, 2012 8:43AM

<< Ebay doesn't require coins that sold with COAs to only be sold with them >>

yuck yuck

I can see it from both sides.

ethcially, you can't do this. I'm still with the "all OGP" crowd and just don't mention the COA for now. Hopefully the losers selling fake ASEs won't get the idea nor motivation to find OGP with COA to sell with it. Still, who trusts a piece of paper over weighing and getting out the magnet?

derryb · April 16, 2012 8:45AM

a little disappointing to buy a graded modern coin, be told the OGP is not available and then find it being sold seperately by a sister company. At least I was able to find if for less elsewhere.

TwoSides2aCoin · April 16, 2012 8:53AM

<< 

<< why don't you identify it as PACKAGING and don't use the words "certificate of authenticity"? >>

This. >>

Let me see if I got this straight. This would be similar to telling a person they could not sell garbage bags without garbage in it. Let's just call them "sacks" or "boxes".

19Lyds · April 16, 2012 8:58AM

<< You try to recoup some of the cost of grading by selling the leftover packaging and eBay says no.
That sucks

>>

Sucks?

No. It's just plain dumb!

What's even dumber is the importance that folks place upon a "mass" produced piece of paper that may or may not reflect reality.

Specifically, the US Mint produced 100,000 COA's for the 25th Anniversary SAE Sets that contained invalid information about the facility which produced the non-Mintmarked Bullion coins in the set.

I can understand folks wanting some type of certificate that authenticates a specific coin but I'm thinking that having the words "UNITED STATES of AMERICA" on the coin should be authentication enough! Besides, having a COA for a Proof Silver Eagle or what not seems a bit silly IMO but if MCM wants to sell unused packaging, I see absolutley no reason to prevent it from happening.

epcjimi1 · April 16, 2012 8:58AM

<< BTW, epcjimi1 has it out for me for reasons completely unknown to me, (go back and read the 4th response) and has expressed this inappropriately by his off color remarks on the forum instead of confronting me directly with whatever his issues are.... if you have a problem with me be a man and call me or PM me.

John >>

John, if you think I have an issue with you, YOU can PM me. Last I checked, my PM is working.

Don't know why I have to PM you.

Whatever.

19Lyds · April 16, 2012 8:59AM

<< why don't you identify it as PACKAGING and don't use the words "certificate of authenticity"? >>

Thats an outstanding idea! Just include the COA as packaging to the Original packaging!

MsMorrisine · April 16, 2012 9:00AM

even with art the COAs can be faked.

which is easier to fake, the art or the COA ?

morgansforever · April 16, 2012 9:05AM

Kinda silly on Ebays part, but it's their house and their rules.
I see your point MCM, loud n clear. Secondrepublic's idea sounds like it may work, just sayin.

derryb · April 16, 2012 9:06AM

<< 

<< You try to recoup some of the cost of grading by selling the leftover packaging and eBay says no.
That sucks

>>

Sucks?

No. It's just plain dumb!

What's even dumber is the importance that folks place upon a "mass" produced piece of paper that may or may not reflect reality.

Specifically, the US Mint produced 100,000 COA's for the 25th Anniversary SAE Sets that contained invalid information about the facility which produced the non-Mintmarked Bullion coins in the set.

I can understand folks wanting some type of certificate that authenticates a specific coin but I'm thinking that having the words "UNITED STATES of AMERICA" on the coin should be authentication enough! Besides, having a COA for a Proof Silver Eagle or what not seems a bit silly IMO but if MCM wants to sell unused packaging, I see absolutley no reason to prevent it from happening. >>

Many collectors like to have the associated OGP that goes with their graded modern coins. Some of the OGP is quite nice (UHR, spouses, etc.)

AUandAG · April 16, 2012 9:06AM

All that work for naught. Bummer, but I'm sitting on plenty that I don't know what to do
with as I knew they would be nuked.

bob

19Lyds · April 16, 2012 9:07AM

<< even with art the COAs can be faked.

which is easier to fake, the art or the COA ? >>

If the COA's were actually "Certificates" tied to a specific coin, I might be concerned but in reality they are more like business cards than anything else!

PerryHall · April 16, 2012 9:10AM

<< 

<< What do YOU think? >>

I think what goes around comes around. MHO. >>

Care to explain why you have a problem with this company?

19Lyds · April 16, 2012 9:13AM

<< 

<< 

<< What do YOU think? >>

I think what goes around comes around. MHO. >>

Care to explain why you have a problem with this company? >>

For what its worth, I interpreted his comment as what goes around for "EBay" will come back around to EBay in possibly lost business from MCM and its subsidiary companies.

I didn't read it as a slam on MCM as much as a slam on EBay.

Buzzybest · April 16, 2012 9:16AM

Uh Oh! It's Monday night. Another food fight!!

JohnMaben · April 16, 2012 9:19AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< What do YOU think? >>

I think what goes around comes around. MHO. >>

Care to explain why you have a problem with this company? >>

For what its worth, I interpreted his comment as what goes around for "EBay" will come back around to EBay in possibly lost business from MCM and its subsidiary companies.

I didn't read it as a slam on MCM as much as a slam on EBay. >>

If that's the case, my apology for misinterpreting epcjimi1. I have PM'd him for clarification.

thecointrader · April 16, 2012 9:20AM

John, perhaps someone in the ANA can help with influencing eBay to revise this policy to exclude recent US Mint products.

123cents · April 16, 2012 9:21AM

I just hope you can get this resolved to every-one's satisfaction.

epcjimi1 · April 16, 2012 9:36AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< What do YOU think? >>

I think what goes around comes around. MHO. >>

Care to explain why you have a problem with this company? >>

For what its worth, I interpreted his comment as what goes around for "EBay" will come back around to EBay in possibly lost business from MCM and its subsidiary companies.

I didn't read it as a slam on MCM as much as a slam on EBay. >>

If that's the case, my apology for misinterpreting epcjimi1. I have PM'd him for clarification. >>

Whatever.

Coinsponge · April 16, 2012 9:37AM

While sympathetic to the issue I am glad COA's are not easily traded on Ebay. They should be destroyed if a coin is slabbed or go with the coin. This could help reduce fraud in the coin world if you ask me. For instance, I have seen fake Spouse Coins selling at various places shortly after the Mint released them. I got one just to check the quality and while it is not perfect, a buyer may not suspect a fake should someone wish to defraud and with a real COA included they may not check things out as they should.

cheezhed · April 16, 2012 9:45AM

GSA CC COAs and empty boxes are routinely sold on ebay and have been for years.

cheezhed · April 16, 2012 9:49AM

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1882CC-GSA-BOX-AND-CARD-MORGAN-SILVER-DOLLAR-COIN-1882-CC-BOX-CARD-ONLY-/350557481053?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item519edaa85d

M · April 16, 2012 9:52AM

I do not understand this ebay removal of your OGP listings. I would prefer that the OGP, if available from the seller, would be offered for a few dollars extra at the time the slabbed coin is purchased/won. I looked for slabbed SP ATB's on ebay that came with packaging and finally decided to buy directly from the mint because of this lack of COA, etc. That being said, I purchased a FS slabbed coin and was able to get the OGP on ebay for an excellent price, very nice OGP. They should not single out one seller - regardless.

pitboss · April 16, 2012 9:52AM

Most people, when they sell graded coins, do not include the coa's and mint boxes because of shipping cost which have gone through the roof

while prices for the coins have not so they end up with lots of them on hand. I know I have plenty of them.

JohnMaben · April 16, 2012 9:56AM

Is anyone here aware of any frauds that have ever been committed on eBay or anywhere else that involve genuine coin COA's? How would one do that? You can't very well place a Jackie Robinson $5 Gold COA in with a $5 Statue of liberty? Further, the COA's are stuffed in boxes on a production line with no regard for matching a particular COA to a particular coin, only that it is the correct coin not a specific coin. Determining if the correct coin is matched with the correct COA is something a third grader could easily do. As pointed out by cheezhed, why are CC dollar COA's any different?

Coinsponge · April 16, 2012 10:00AM

<< Is anyone here aware of any frauds that have ever been committed on eBay or anywhere else that involve genuine coin COA's? How would one do that? You can't very well place a Jackie Robinson $5 Gold COA in with a $5 Statue of liberty? Further, the COA's are stuffed in boxes on a production line with no regard for matching a particular COA to a particular coin, only that it is the correct coin not a specific coin. Determining if the correct coin is matched with the correct COA is something a third grader could easily do. As pointed out by cheezhed, why are CC dollar COA's any different? >>

If COA's serve no purpose then why would someone want to pay money for them? Is there a market for the tissue paper also?

M · April 16, 2012 10:08AM

<< 

<< Is anyone here aware of any frauds that have ever been committed on eBay or anywhere else that involve genuine coin COA's? How would one do that? You can't very well place a Jackie Robinson $5 Gold COA in with a $5 Statue of liberty? Further, the COA's are stuffed in boxes on a production line with no regard for matching a particular COA to a particular coin, only that it is the correct coin not a specific coin. Determining if the correct coin is matched with the correct COA is something a third grader could easily do. As pointed out by cheezhed, why are CC dollar COA's any different? >>

If COA's serve no purpose then why would someone want to pay money for them? >>

I can tell you that when I purchased the slabbed First Spouse coin, I immediately wanted the OGP and COA to keep with it for now and for resell. I guess the COA serves no purpose alone, but if you are missing it or just want it, why not? I received a Mercanti letter with a slabbed set of PCGS coins, not Mercanti signed, but still thought it was a nice addition...

derryb · April 16, 2012 10:08AM

<< Is anyone here aware of any frauds that have ever been committed on eBay or anywhere else that involve genuine coin COA's? How would one do that? You can't very well place a Jackie Robinson $5 Gold COA in with a $5 Statue of liberty? Further, the COA's are stuffed in boxes on a production line with no regard for matching a particular COA to a particular coin, only that it is the correct coin not a specific coin. Determining if the correct coin is matched with the correct COA is something a third grader could easily do. As pointed out by cheezhed, why are CC dollar COA's any different? >>

Other than a market for OGP with collectors who want the OGP with their graded coins, I suspect a number of graded modern non-70's have been cracked out and returned to OGP and sold as "just as received from the mint." I also suspect this creates demand for original mint capsules, which are unique.

Coinsponge · April 16, 2012 10:15AM

They let you sell OGP on eBay right? I think if you do not mention the COA you might be ok. If someone wants to know for sure they can ask you.

EagleEye · April 16, 2012 10:17AM

There are other places to sell the COA's. Just say innocently on every listing that stand-alone COA's are available on our website.

JohnMaben · April 16, 2012 10:19AM

<< They let you sell OGP on eBay right? I think if you do not mention the COA you might be ok. If someone wants to know for sure they can ask you. >>

If they ask you via ebay messaging and you say COA included, you are breaking the rules. We don't want to break the rules, we think they should not apply to coins.

lasvegasteddy · April 16, 2012 10:19AM

i wonder if you presented serious competition to other sellers with "less than" tactics

19Lyds · April 16, 2012 10:32AM

<< I do not understand this ebay removal of your OGP listings. I would prefer that the OGP, if available from the seller, would be offered for a few dollars extra at the time the slabbed coin is purchased/won. I looked for slabbed SP ATB's on ebay that came with packaging and finally decided to buy directly from the mint because of this lack of COA, etc. That being said, I purchased a FS slabbed coin and was able to get the OGP on ebay for an excellent price, very nice OGP. They should not single out one seller - regardless. >>

When I sold my FS Slabbed 25th Anniversary Sets, I purposely included the OGP and COA's simply because I didn't want them laying around and collecting dust. I'd hate for this situation with MSM to escalate to the point where it becomes a requirement since it would cost a lot more to ship boxes and COA's for slabbed Modern Coins.

19Lyds · April 16, 2012 10:36AM

<< Is anyone here aware of any frauds that have ever been committed on eBay or anywhere else that involve genuine coin COA's? >>

You mean like slipping a 1971-S Ike Dollar in an airtight capsule inside of a 2011-W SAE Box and claiming that regardless of what the coin said that it was in fact a 2011-W SAE because the COA said so?

Coinsponge · April 16, 2012 10:41AM

<< 

<< I do not understand this ebay removal of your OGP listings. I would prefer that the OGP, if available from the seller, would be offered for a few dollars extra at the time the slabbed coin is purchased/won. I looked for slabbed SP ATB's on ebay that came with packaging and finally decided to buy directly from the mint because of this lack of COA, etc. That being said, I purchased a FS slabbed coin and was able to get the OGP on ebay for an excellent price, very nice OGP. They should not single out one seller - regardless. >>

When I sold my FS Slabbed 25th Anniversary Sets, I purposely included the OGP and COA's simply because I didn't want them laying around and collecting dust. I'd hate for this situation with MSM to escalate to the point where it becomes a requirement since it would cost a lot more to ship boxes and COA's for slabbed Modern Coins. >>

I don't think they would ever require COA's with coins sold since some people never had them to begin with.

Buzzybest · April 16, 2012 10:48AM

<< Most people, when they sell graded coins, do not include the coa's and mint boxes because of shipping cost which have gone through the roof

while prices for the coins have not so they end up with lots of them on hand. I know I have plenty of them. >>

I agree. I keep OGP until a submitted coin comes back with a grade. If it's 69 or 70,I throw out the OGP. If it's less than a 69,the coin gets cracked out and put back in the OGP.

jessewvu · April 16, 2012 10:55AM

<< Is anyone here aware of any frauds that have ever been committed on eBay or anywhere else that involve genuine coin COA's? How would one do that? You can't very well place a Jackie Robinson $5 Gold COA in with a $5 Statue of liberty? Further, the COA's are stuffed in boxes on a production line with no regard for matching a particular COA to a particular coin, only that it is the correct coin not a specific coin. Determining if the correct coin is matched with the correct COA is something a third grader could easily do. As pointed out by cheezhed, why are CC dollar COA's any different? >>

Yes. The United States Mint had a very big problem with the Lewis and Clark coin and pouch set. They shipped several thousand blank COA's to two specific native Americans to fill out an mail back with their pouch. Long story short, the mint rejected the pouches and sent them back to the native Americans who sold them. A certain eBay seller took those and had someone make pouches that were WAY out f line with what the US Mint wanted released.

PM me if you want more info but the US Mint had a HUGE problem.

Julian · April 16, 2012 11:02AM

<< why don't you identify it as PACKAGING and don't use the words "certificate of authenticity"? >>

This seems to be an answer; not exactly what you want, but.........

messydesk · April 16, 2012 11:06AM

<< 

<< They let you sell OGP on eBay right? I think if you do not mention the COA you might be ok. If someone wants to know for sure they can ask you. >>

If they ask you via ebay messaging and you say COA included, you are breaking the rules. We don't want to break the rules, we think they should not apply to coins. >>

You say that the original government issued spec. sheet that is part of the original packaging is included.

eBay ended hundreds of our listings :(

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