Would the PCGS guarantee cover this? UPDATE

donthehill · February 20, 2012 9:18AM

Folks,
I've got a PCGS-grade IHC with some (I think) verdigris on the reverse, as shown in the scans below. The whole coin is from a scanner, and the closeups are from a QX5 microscope; thus the diffs in color. The spot in the "N" is by far the most evident, and the colors in the other closeups don't show the Cu-greenish color as well. From what I read in the PCGS guarantee text, it's not clear to me if this kind of thing is covered or not (I wouldn't be surprised if a quick dip in acetone wouldn't remove all this gunk). The coin is a MS62RB, so maybe this kind of stuff goes along with a 62 grade. Any thoughts?
-drew

Before:

After:

btw - super fast turnaround time w/PCGS - Sent in on Mar.4, rec'd today (Mar.26). Thanks for all-y'all's comments and thanks to PCGS!
-drew

crypto79 · February 20, 2012 9:21AM

Absolutely, PCGS has a long track record of taking care of collectors first and foremost and David Hall oversees all guarantee submissions personally. While not a quick process it is not only industry leading it is most likely the best in all hobbies. When you submit it tell them you want the coin back but it has developed cancer and they should take care of it unless it is a low dollar coin and they just offer to buy it back.

Wingsrule · February 20, 2012 9:40AM

Wasn't there a change made to the Guarantee a year or so ago which excluded (some types of) copper? Your best bet would be to contact Customer Service.

Bochiman · February 20, 2012 9:40AM

<< Wasn't there a change made to the Guarantee a year or so ago which excluded (some types of) copper? Your best bet would be to contact Customer Service. >>

That was for the color designation, not for issues with the coin.

bob48 · February 20, 2012 9:46AM

Very interesting.
I would like to know how this turns out.
Thanks, Bob

MikeInFL · February 20, 2012 10:52AM

I would not preclude a 62 grade for a coin with those small corrosion spots. Acetone will not do anything to them either, I suspect very strongly.

Worth a shot, I suppose, and if PCGS agrees the coin is no longer a 62 (a big if in my eyes), they will make you whole.

Good luck, and please keep us posted!....Mike

lkeigwin · February 20, 2012 11:05AM

PCGS has done this for me on 5 or 6 coins over many years. I have been almost always very satisfied. And the turn-around is better than it used to be, several years ago.

Remember that copper color is at risk. Less so for BN coins but often for RD and RB.

Here's an 1878 IHC that changed color a bit, not necessarily in a bad way. You can see the minor verdigris or PVC in several places -- 10k at wreath near rim, upper inside of O in ONE, 6k dentils.

Before, then after. (The obverse wasn't infected but I'll show those images and the color change.)
Lance.

donthehill · March 26, 2012 12:42PM

ttt

AnkurJ · March 26, 2012 1:02PM

Interesting! So PCGS in some ways does the same thing NCS does but only in certain aspects.

crypto79 · March 26, 2012 11:53PM

<< Interesting! So PCGS in some ways does the same thing NCS does but only in certain aspects. >>

Only for coins already in their plastic

mozin · March 27, 2012 9:32AM

The PVC still shows a bit in the repaired pictures. Maybe PCGS thinks it is OK to still show, but they believe the PVC is dead, because it is not bright any longer?

relicsncoins · March 27, 2012 9:43AM

The color on that 78 went from the natural orange to more of a pink. I have seen that pink get bagged for questionable color on more than one occasion. It would be interesting to crack it out and submit it raw and see what the results are.

magikbilly · March 27, 2012 10:04AM

<< The color on that 78 went from the natural orange to more of a pink. I have seen that pink get bagged for questionable color on more than one occasion. It would be interesting to crack it out and submit it raw and see what the results are. >>

Agreed, but before the sniffer was announced there was the scanner/imager announcement, and that device would tell PCGS they saw this coin already??

Eric

magikbilly · March 27, 2012 12:27PM

If this coin were resubmitted to PCGS would they not recognize it? I thought the scanner recorded all kinds of stuff to ID mark each and every coin they had been imaging specifically - I recall they were imaging before the announcement. I have not heard much talk about it since them. That was to catch doctors, but the imager/scanner would recognize this too, right?

Eric

georgiacop50 · March 27, 2012 10:58PM

IMHO, the coin should have been left alone:

1) The color has gone from original looking to questionable.

2) I think you had a mixture of virdigris (the big one on the "N") and PVC (most of the rest of the green). But whatever it is, is moot, because it was only partially removed.

3) The area below the "N" and above the arrows now appears to have tiny scratches.

I honestly can't understand why you are thanking PCGS. I would not be happy with this clearcut doctoring.

magikbilly · March 28, 2012 2:29AM

Any info about the above mentioned scanner would be appreciated. I can't disagree with the above post - this could conceivably be see as a funny color. So the scanner as described would here prevent a 92, right?

Best,
Eric

Elcontador · March 28, 2012 3:30AM

Have seen verdigris / active PVC on Unc. copper on a number of occasions. Moreso on early Unc. 19th Century Large and Half Cents.

Lance, agree with others re the color of your after pics looking questionable. You do not want a pinkish hue on Unc. copper. There's no easy fix for coins like the ones imaged above. For this reason, I stay away from them.

magikbilly · March 28, 2012 10:03AM

Any info re imager appreciated. It was announced around the time of part of "The Big One" IIRC. Last call. Thanks!

Eric

Edit - It was Laser Scanner C. 2010

magikbilly · April 1, 2012 12:43PM

Hi,

it was called the Laser Scanner and it was around the time of the sniffer, before actually. It was said to be in use long before it was announced and it was said to be used on all coins. This is my question - should this laser Scanner make the above coin, the Indian, NOT come back as 92 which we might expect given the color change?

Laser Scanner

Best wishes,
Eric

Edit to add - this Scanner and the Sniffer are now used for all submissions, correct?

MsMorrisine · April 1, 2012 12:52PM

Secure Plus submission uses the coin recognition tech.

My guess is they also use it on people's regular submissions who they think are coin doctors.

it is a coin fingerprinting tech such that they can say "hey, we've graded this before" then pull up any past Secure Plus photo(s) taken.

humans still decide tooling, etc.
and humans and the sniffer decide AT, putty, etc.

magikbilly · April 1, 2012 12:56PM

<< Secure Plus submission uses the coin recognition tech.

My guess is they also use it on people's regular submissions who they think are coin doctors.

it is a coin fingerprinting tech such that they can say "hey, we've graded this before" then pull up any past Secure Plus photo(s) taken.

humans still decide tooling, etc.
and humans and the sniffer decide AT, putty, etc. >>

Hi,

"This new service takes advantage of groundbreaking new laser technology designed to capture a unique identifying record of each coin. These records are archived by PCGS and are referenced in subsequent submissions.

If a coin is recognized as having previously been submitted, its record(s) are forwarded into the grading process. This historical data will assist PCGS in identifying coins that have been artificially toned or altered in some other way..."

Yes, I know, it was said long ago it was in use for all coins and for longer then we knew. So if the Laser Scanner does not (?) apply, and the Sniffer is not in play here - what prevents this from coming back a 92 if cracked out?

Best wishes,
Eric

georgiacop50 · April 1, 2012 10:24PM

<< - what prevents this from coming back a 92 if cracked out?

Best wishes,
Eric >>

Nothing. And I would bet it WOULD get gennied if submitted raw.

Would the PCGS guarantee cover this? UPDATE

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