Doctored coins

Billet7 · March 25, 2012 7:27AM

Coin doctoring has come under serious heat the last few years, it's a "no-no" for lack of a better phrase. Let's say doctoring stops right now...it's over and done with. We are left with a bunch of coins, some are doctored, some are not. What should be done with the doctored coins? Do we un-doctor them? (kind-of sounds a bit hypocritical...alterations are the problem to begin with, are re-alterations OK?) Should they be tossed? Melted? Should they be certified as "genuine, doctored?" Should they be left alone? There are seriously rare coins that have been doctored. In some cases they are trying for a higher grade, in others the restorer is simply trying to minimize the visual impact of whatever problem the coins have.

What should be done with the doctored coins? I really don't know, what does PCGS do with one? Just send it back? Counterfeit coins get turned into the government right?...perhaps there should be an organization that deals with identifying, registering, encapsulating doctored coins. I dunno, just thinking out loud.

lasvegasteddy · March 25, 2012 7:31AM

the world has many problems and i wouldn't know where to start but i think this is pretty low on the totem pole...

i'm still awaiting laser serial etching by grading companies

TheBigB · March 25, 2012 7:44AM

This is one possible solution for the hardcore.

AMRC · March 25, 2012 8:57AM

This assumes you can pick them out of the line-up of course.

EagleEye · March 25, 2012 9:04AM

PCGS and NGC can buy the problem pieces off the market. They might be able to recoup their loss from the original submitter, but they can take them off the market.

perhaps the ANA can accept these coins as donations for educational purposes. The donations can be given a tax right-off to PCGS, NGC and any other donators for full value.

The coins could then be used during summer seminar as examples of doctored coins.

ricko · March 25, 2012 9:08AM

Rick has a great idea... would serve a real educational purpose then. Of course, only the ones that can be detected will be used...the good ones stay in collections. Cheers, RickO

Sonorandesertrat · March 25, 2012 9:58AM

<< PCGS and NGC can buy the problem pieces off the market. They might be able to recoup their loss from the original submitter, but they can take them off the market.

perhaps the ANA can accept these coins as donations for educational purposes. The donations can be given a tax right-off to PCGS, NGC and any other donators for full value.

The coins could then be used during summer seminar as examples of doctored coins. >>

Defining 'full value' will be a problem. If a coin is doctored, surely the IRS won't accept an improper slab grade as the basis for determining full value.

GoldenEyeNumismatics · March 25, 2012 10:03AM

Doctored coins that "turn" could be bought back by PCGS/NGC under their grade guarantee. The remaining doctored coins will continue to circulate throughout the market.

EagleEye · March 25, 2012 10:08AM

Typically the value is determined by an independent appraisal. the rule is you have to have had ownership for a year or more. You use a licensed appraiser verify the value. The organization you donate to must keep it for more than two years.

You can buy stamp collections at 1/10 value and donate it for full catalog value. great tax right-off there.

lkeigwin · March 25, 2012 10:16AM

<< What should be done with the doctored coins? I really don't know, what does PCGS do with one? Just send it back? Counterfeit coins get turned into the government right? >>

PCGS avoids having to do this by declaring counterfeits of "questionable authenticity".

There are too many guesses when it comes doctoring to decide any fate, IMO.
Lance.

coinman23885 · March 25, 2012 4:12PM

<< PCGS and NGC can buy the problem pieces off the market. They might be able to recoup their loss from the original submitter, but they can take them off the market.

perhaps the ANA can accept these coins as donations for educational purposes. The donations can be given a tax right-off to PCGS, NGC and any other donators for full value.

The coins could then be used during summer seminar as examples of doctored coins. >>

Please explain how PCGS and NGC can recoup the loss from the original submitter? What if the original submitter was not the coin doctor and was unaware of the problems? They simply paid for an expert opinion and guarantee, and after all, it should be the expert's loss unless they can demonstrate that the original submitter fraudulently submitted the coins. I don't think courts and juries would be very sympathetic; I'm not.

magikbilly · March 25, 2012 4:26PM

Considering the % of desirable or decent 19th century coins that have been stripped and retoned you must mean doctoring over and above even moderate to heavy color and skin alterations? That's a lot of coins.

Eric

chipper10 · March 25, 2012 7:35PM

<< 

<< PCGS and NGC can buy the problem pieces off the market. They might be able to recoup their loss from the original submitter, but they can take them off the market.

perhaps the ANA can accept these coins as donations for educational purposes. The donations can be given a tax right-off to PCGS, NGC and any other donators for full value.

The coins could then be used during summer seminar as examples of doctored coins. >>

Please explain how PCGS and NGC can recoup the loss from the original submitter? What if the original submitter was not the coin doctor and was unaware of the problems? They simply paid for an expert opinion and guarantee, and after all, it should be the expert's loss unless they can demonstrate that the original submitter fraudulently submitted the coins. I don't think courts and juries would be very sympathetic; I'm not. >>

Exactly. No sympathy here for the TPG's. If you are an "expert" and trading on that perception for profit then it's your loss you if you are fooled.

jmcu12 · March 25, 2012 11:02PM

I know a lot of people don't like to admit it but there is a market for problem coins - especially for keys.

rmpsrpms · March 26, 2012 12:52AM

Unfortunately, if suddenly only original, un-messed-with coins were desirable, and thereafter messing with coins went out of vogue, the coin market would crash to a halt. From what I've seen at shows and in dealer's cases, a large majority of coins out there, whether raw or encapsulated, have been messed with. It's an unfortunate truth, but we're all just passing this stuff back and forth between us, and when (not if) the greedy among us get the idea they can make a buck by "improving" a coin, it's forever ruined and would be a pariah in the new paradigm.

Billet7 · March 26, 2012 1:00AM

<< I know a lot of people don't like to admit it but there is a market for problem coins - especially for keys. >>

I guess that's partly my point, a doctored rarity is still a rarity. I would still pay decent money for a nice 1872-S quarter, even if it's been doctored, course not as much as I would if it were problem free. Problem is, you don't always know if it's been doctored or not.

I really think it would be a good idea to have the TPG's start encapsulating coins they think are doctored, but list it as "Genuine-Doctored, XF Details" or something like that. In all cases they would use the "sniffer" so the coin gets tracked, and have images available for the general public to view...keep a searchable list of the doctored coins as well, so even if the coin was cracked, you could still look up the coin.

Any doctored coin that passed through their hands would be identified (if identification were possible.) Doctoring would become much less appetizing, and would diminish. Course there are those that would still get through, it would be much more difficult though.

Doctored coins

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