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CBS Sunday Morning to Chronicle Industry’s “Collapse”
PeteZaria
Posts: 288
FYI: This is going to be on sometime between 9am-10:30am tomorrow.
http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/cbs-sunday-morning-to-chronicle-industrys-collapse/
"Back in the ‘50s and ‘60s, collecting and trading baseball cards was a childhood hobby. By 1991, this sideline to America’s national pastime had grown into a billion-dollar industry, with some 5,000 card shops nationwide and packed conventions around the country. Today, though, what was once a thriving market has gone bust. CBS News chief investigative correspondent Armen Keteyian learns why in a report that includes an interview with Dave Jamieson, author of Mint Condition, an account of the rise and fall of the baseball card industry."
http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/cbs-sunday-morning-to-chronicle-industrys-collapse/
"Back in the ‘50s and ‘60s, collecting and trading baseball cards was a childhood hobby. By 1991, this sideline to America’s national pastime had grown into a billion-dollar industry, with some 5,000 card shops nationwide and packed conventions around the country. Today, though, what was once a thriving market has gone bust. CBS News chief investigative correspondent Armen Keteyian learns why in a report that includes an interview with Dave Jamieson, author of Mint Condition, an account of the rise and fall of the baseball card industry."
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Comments
Or are they just interested in the decreased value of Gregg Jeffries, Mark McGwire and other 80's & 90's cards
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
-ps I hate the new 60 day completed sales history, two weeks was enough. I wonder if it will have any impact on vcp subscriptions?
<< <i>Is this a freaking joke? The hobby is certainly different since the '90s, but it is alive and well. What a ridiculous and false idea for a show. Sales have been great for trading cards lately. The premise for the show is 100% based in falsities. >>
I disagree. Different than the 1990's yes, back then you could afford to buy packs. 2012 pack prices are outragous.
I believe the downfall is the lack of young collectors. How did most people get started? Buying packs. If kids can not afford to buy packs, the hobby is collapsing. The card companies have decided kids (new collectors just don't matter).
So yes I do believe the industry is headed for a collapse. In the past 20 years their are alot less collectors in my age groupe (at least where I live, I do not know anyone else who collects anymore). Card shops are non-existant (I think the closest one to me is 2 hours away). I the story is probably spot on.
Dave
Is the entertainment/film industry collapsing because the local brick and mortar video rental stores have all closed down?
New modes of distribution, i.e., the internet, coupled with the advent of third party grading have caused tectonic shifts in the hobby since the 80s.
Earlier posters have it spot on: some tool with a garage full of Gary Thurman Rated Rookies is salted out. Cry me a river. Yes, in that sense, I'll concede greed caused a low moment in the hobby. But it took a moment for card manufacturers and collectors alike to realize that the rarity of older cards, due to kids having put them in spokes, flipped them, and moms having junked them, was no longer the case after the mid 80s. Now rarity/scarcity is built into the product at the factory. I'm not a modern collector, but numerous modern cards sell for serious money in BGS 10s and PSA 10s. Jeter SP comes to mind immediately.
This story reeks of the 24-hour news cycle needing content desperately, and some dweeb with a fraction of perspective on the hobby pitched his boss an idea that got produced.
I'll gladly buy high grade vintage and pre-war HOFers off anyone who runs for the hills because of this non-story. The prices being realized at auction houses and ebay beg to differ.
If they say industry is depressed, it may bring in people with the attitude "buy low, sell high"
Bringing more into the hobby is a good thing.
What show will this be on ?
<< <i>For this article to cite the extinction of brick and mortar card shops as proof of an industry collapse is sheer stupidity.
Is the entertainment/film industry collapsing because the local brick and mortar video rental stores have all closed down?
New modes of distribution, i.e., the internet, coupled with the advent of third party grading have caused tectonic shifts in the hobby since the 80s.
Earlier posters have it spot on: some tool with a garage full of Gary Thurman Rated Rookies is salted out. Cry me a river. Yes, in that sense, I'll concede greed caused a low moment in the hobby. But it took a moment for card manufacturers and collectors alike to realize that the rarity of older cards, due to kids having put them in spokes, flipped them, and moms having junked them, was no longer the case after the mid 80s. Now rarity/scarcity is built into the product at the factory. I'm not a modern collector, but numerous modern cards sell for serious money in BGS 10s and PSA 10s. Jeter SP comes to mind immediately.
This story reeks of the 24-hour news cycle needing content desperately, and some dweeb with a fraction of perspective on the hobby pitched his boss an idea that got produced.
I'll gladly buy high grade vintage and pre-war HOFers off anyone who runs for the hills because of this non-story. The prices being realized at auction houses and ebay beg to differ. >>
You are right on with those comments. A lack of card shops or even shows means absolutely nothing. It is simply much more convenient, profitable, and logical to sell online rather than incur the overhead that comes with renting a building.
I have noticed cards and boxes are selling better this spring than at any time in the past 10 years. Many wax boxes from the late 1980s and 1990s which you would have had a rough time selling at $4 to $5 per box have been selling for $15 to $30. And the record prices for many graded singles have been well documented on these boards recently. If this ABC report fails to acknowledge the online market and graded card record prices, it will be a joke. Perhaps Joe Orlando would need to contact ABC to tell this side of the story. He mentioned something along those lines anyway in his most recent SMR article.
<< <i>
I disagree. Different than the 1990's yes, back then you could afford to buy packs. 2012 pack prices are outrageous.
I believe the downfall is the lack of young collectors. How did most people get started? Buying packs. If kids can not afford to buy packs, the hobby is collapsing. The card companies have decided kids (new collectors just don't matter).
Dave >>
This is a great point. And to take it a step further, distribution sucks. I live in a densely populated urban area in the 5th largest city in the US. There is no place to buy cards within walking distance. There are plenty of drug stores, mini-marts, etc, but no place sells cards.
Meanwhile, kids love cards. I gave a bunch out at my school (thanks to the generosity of some board members) and these kids were clamoring for them. Collecting them, storing them, trading them, talking about them.
The problem is they can't afford the packs, and even if they could, they are not readily available. And to ask kids to save their spending money until they can get a ride to Target is kind of unrealistic.
I collect Vintage (Mantle,Aaron,Mays), as well as 70's and 80's HOF's. Stud players, like Schmidt, Brett, Ripken, and Ryan, continue to exceed VCP averages, and high's. Run of the mil HOF's are doing nothing. There will always be demand for High Grade Vintage, as well as, modern "Stud" HOFs. Even though Pop's are significantly higher for 70's and 80's, demand is higher than the Pop's.
the purveyors of information to the masses will never know about this since they don't live it.
somewhere out there small pockets of success continue to build and grow, like maybe a guy who specializes in littering the planet with vintage cards and memorabilia.
if they'd call it an industry prolapse, they might be on to something.
<< <i> I just saw Mr Mints bald head......I guess it is on next! >>
LOL, I just commented to my wife, there is that bald B..........
<< <i>Yep another bs story that sports cards are worthless because some novice collectors from the early 90's 89ud Griffey rc is not worth $ 300 raw or there 89 topps set does not pay off there credit card then all cards must be worthless. eBay went to 60 day completed sales recently, let's add up all thoes transactions and see how worthless cards have become. What a bunch of dip s@&t's.
-ps I hate the new 60 day completed sales history, two weeks was enough. I wonder if it will have any impact on vcp subscriptions? >>
The 60 day completed sales history is a wonderful addition for ebay users, especially buyers. Transparancy in pricing is never a bad thing.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
http://www.youtube.com/user/dzolot
Thanks for watching. Hope you enjoyed!!
- I would encourage all collectors to post a video of their collection - I have found it to be a very rewarding way to share my sports cards!!
Not sure I agree with the the idea that kids can't afford new cards. How much do their video games and cell phone services cost? If there is demand for cheap packs in gas stations, they would be there. Things are so different in 2012 than they were in the decades most of us started
As already pointed out, the collapse happened in 1997. Going forward, where will new customers come from? Without new customers how can there not be a decline?
-CDs Nuts, 1/20/14
*1956 Topps baseball- 97.4% complete, 7.24 GPA
*Clemente basic set: 85.0% complete, 7.89 GPA
I completely agree. I collect actively. I haven't been to a card shop or show in years. The last 2-3 shows I have been to have had the same fat 40-70 year old dealers telling me how to collect and what cards are hot, and the same 15-30 year old slicksters trying to sell a bunch of modern refractors/rarities/etc. I've been collecting cards since 1973. The first card show I attended was in 1980. I asked a guy that had a lot of vintage if he had any Jimmy Piersall cards and he said no. I said thank you and went on to the next guy. He then proceeded to make fun of me (I was a teenager at the time) to the other dealers that I was buying Piersall cards because he was famous for a movie and what a schmuck I was. Actually, I had a job and I was down to my last card for the 54 Bowman set and was looking for #66 (as I did not have Ted Williams money). These are the kinds of guys I meet at shows. Most people at card shows annoy me. I can buy the same cards cheaper on the internet, with less hassle, a huge selection, from my living room, without having to deal with dealers in person. At least on the internet I can pretend that sellers are decent guys, even if they aren't.
<< <i>I can buy the same cards cheaper on the internet, with less hassle, a huge selection, from my living room, without having to deal with dealers in person. >>
There's the key for me. There are two card shops near me that have vintage cards. I would go to these shops all the time.... except for one problem. Neither of them EVER have any vintage cards that are nicer than EX-MT. With very few exceptions, everything I collect is in higher grade than that.
So in my case, it's not the card market declining, it's just that card shops aren't an option.
I haven't been to a local card show in a while- but from my recollection, my luck wouldn't be a whole lot better.
-CDs Nuts, 1/20/14
*1956 Topps baseball- 97.4% complete, 7.24 GPA
*Clemente basic set: 85.0% complete, 7.89 GPA
<< <i>Completely miss-represented! Attendance is down because of the internet
I completely agree. I collect actively. I haven't been to a card shop or show in years. The last 2-3 shows I have been to have had the same fat 40-70 year old dealers telling me how to collect and what cards are hot, and the same 15-30 year old slicksters trying to sell a bunch of modern refractors/rarities/etc. I've been collecting cards since 1973. The first card show I attended was in 1980. I asked a guy that had a lot of vintage if he had any Jimmy Piersall cards and he said no. I said thank you and went on to the next guy. He then proceeded to make fun of me (I was a teenager at the time) to the other dealers that I was buying Piersall cards because he was famous for a movie and what a schmuck I was. Actually, I had a job and I was down to my last card for the 54 Bowman set and was looking for #66 (as I did not have Ted Williams money). These are the kinds of guys I meet at shows. Most people at card shows annoy me. I can buy the same cards cheaper on the internet, with less hassle, a huge selection, from my living room, without having to deal with dealers in person. At least on the internet I can pretend that sellers are decent guys, even if they aren't. >>
I completely agree.....though the last show I went to in L.A. had a table with a ton of Mantle's and Ruth's, etc. and it was awesome to see in person. So I guess if a show does come around in the near future in my area, I will probably go just to see the possibilities.
Paul
https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/pdub1819/othersets/6204
<< <i>The 60 day completed sales history is a wonderful addition for ebay users, especially buyers. Transparancy in pricing is never a bad thing. >>
- mcadams
<< <i>These are the kinds of guys I meet at shows. Most people at card shows annoy me. I can buy the same cards cheaper on the internet, with less hassle, a huge selection, from my living room, without having to deal with dealers in person. >>
- PowderedH2O
Never really understood why kids collecting
or not collecting cards makes any difference.
How many kids collect or attend fine art shows?
Antique shows, gun shows, stamp shows, or coin shows?
All of these areas of interest continue
to thrive with only minimal participation by kids.
Sports are as popular as ever if not more so.
Interest in cards isn't going away any time soon.
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
<< <i>Never really understood why kids collecting
or not collecting cards makes any difference. >>
therein lies the twist......kids collecting today are nothing like kids collecting then because "original" kids played with the cards, while others just shoved 'em in a box and ignored 'em until someone with an enterprising mind decided to expose them again.
that person would quite likely have been an adult.
today, adults don't need those accidental qualifiers to enter the market. nor do they need kids.
Edit to add: To witness firsthand a hobby that basically collapsed and aged into irrelevance, just click on the PSE link at the top of this page and visit the ghost town otherwise known as the rare stamps forum. I can recall thirty-five years ago when collecting stamps was as almost as popular a hobby as collecting cards.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Never really understood why kids collecting
or not collecting cards makes any difference. >>
It doesn't matter. What matters is bringing in new customers. While most buyers of cards are adults, most started as kids and continued throughout their lives. Unlike art, firearms and Ford Mustangs, very few who never collected cards as kids start once they've grown older
Cards are definitely not going away soon. But unless new buyers emerge, it won't increase and will eventually decline
<< <i>Never really understood why kids collecting
or not collecting cards makes any difference.
How many kids collect or attend fine art shows?
Antique shows, gun shows, stamp shows, or coin shows?
All of these areas of interest continue
to thrive with only minimal participation by kids.
Sports are as popular as ever if not more so.
Interest in cards isn't going away any time soon. >>
It matters because how many adults do you know who are heavily invested in sports cards who didn't get into collecting before the age of 20? Those other hobbies are traditionally adult-oriented, G-rated activities that many people pursue for the first time as adults. For the same reason fantasy baseball is so much more popular than APBA or Strat-o-Matic, and for the same reasons so many young people think Mickey Mantle was a better player than Joe DiMaggio, the card collecting industry is headed for a downfall. This media story doesn't belong in 1998, it belongs in 2035. Attention spans are much shorter, there's little respect for or interest in anything that happened before the current generation of kids was born, and anything that's not 100% digital (and by that, I mean MODERN digital, which is why APBA Baseball for Windows, last updated in 1999, cannot gain interest from anyone under 35 even though it's still a great game) is considered archaic and obsolete. Cardboard is most definitely headed in this direction. Upper Deck tried those PowerDeck CDROM cards about 10-15 years ago to make them interactive, and it didn't catch on. Maybe the next thing is to sell cards with embedded RFID chips that contain video files that can be scanned by a smart phone and play video content on the device. If you think the price of packs is high now, just wait until baseball cards get moved to the electronics section of your local Walmart.
As the older collectors age and die off, there's going to be less and less interest in cards from the 1950s, '60s, and 70's. Pre-war cards don't have a huge following. They maintain their value mostly due to their scarcity, and a little due to their notoriety, not because anyone collecting today remembers seeing any of the featured players actually playing baseball. I see an eventual drop in prices in 1950-1980 era cards, because as time passes, they'll only attract the same type of collector who today is into pre-war cards. There are a lot of people around collecting cards now who saw guys like Ron Guidry, Reggie Jackson, Don Mattingly, and Keith Hernandez actually playing baseball. Just like the players themselves, these collectors aren't going to last forever. Only these cards aren't nearly as rare as pre-war cards. Supply is going to far outweigh demand.
<< <i>Never really understood why kids collecting
or not collecting cards makes any difference.
How many kids collect or attend fine art shows?
Antique shows, gun shows, stamp shows, or coin shows?
All of these areas of interest continue
to thrive with only minimal participation by kids.
Sports are as popular as ever if not more so.
Interest in cards isn't going away any time soon. >>
+1
While I find all facts/factoids interesting - I really don't care. I collect solely for enjoyment - and - now - more than ever - I'm happy picking up a 10 buck board game.
And - this is not directed at any "other" group and their thinking on any of this topic.
I guess what I'm saying - I'm in a happy place - collecting - and that's all that counts - the rest - i.e. this article - is purely background (noise) info for me.
edit: we seem to have "some" people here who appear to be in pain - that's all they do is complain - especially about ebay - it's not like the govt. is mandating that we buy high end stuff that may drop - or one is in control of the policies set by any purveyor - life's short. I know this is the POV of a senior here.
The reason kids need to be involved is so that when they reach their 30s, the nostalgia will kick in and they'll buy the cards they wanted as kids, demand will go up for an asset with a shrinking supply and the prices will rise. As there are no kids coming in, and as the collectors who are currently propping up the market age and pass away, most prices will fall.
An excellent example is the stamp industry. My uncle is a well known stamp dealer who has been collecting since the early 1960s. The truly rare stamps (not conditional rarities mind you, but those with just a few examples extant), continue to climb in price. However, 99.999% of stamps are falling in value and prices noticeably drop whenever a major collector passes away and his collection hits the market. There are certain sectors of postal history where only one or two collectors (who are in their 80s) are living and the dealers now refuse to buy that product at any price.
For our purposes, we're years away from the stamp industry, but it is coming. It's been coming since the mid-90s, when the kids were priced out of the market. In my lifetime, I expect to see a second precipitous drop in values as registry set kings pass away with no collectors to replace them.
It's been a good run and I, for one, will continue to collect for pleasure, full well knowing that, should I keep my cards until my passing, they'll be worth far less than they were fifty years previous.
Wow, some of these posts are a bit heavy on the gloom and doom. I prefer to think that this hobby is unique because it's all about the sports. As long as professional sports stay wildly popular in this country, I see no reason for any collape of the collecting market. New product may change with the times but the hobby as a whole (especially vintage) will be fine. Relax.
With all due respect, you can't possible compare the sports collecting market with stamp collecting. Total absurdity.
not with the last three auctions I have attended...
premiums were paid and then some...
great time to sell right now...
Looking for 1970 MLB Photostamps
- uncut
Positive Transactions - tennesseebanker, Ahmanfan, Donruss, Colebear, CDsNuts, rbdjr1, Downtown1974, yankeeno7, drewsef, mnolan, mrbud60, msassin, RipublicaninMass, AkbarClone, rustywilly, lsutigers1973, julen23 and nam812, plus many others...
<< <i>
<< <i>Is this a freaking joke? The hobby is certainly different since the '90s, but it is alive and well. What a ridiculous and false idea for a show. Sales have been great for trading cards lately. The premise for the show is 100% based in falsities. >>
I disagree. Different than the 1990's yes, back then you could afford to buy packs. 2012 pack prices are outragous.
I believe the downfall is the lack of young collectors. How did most people get started? Buying packs. If kids can not afford to buy packs, the hobby is collapsing. The card companies have decided kids (new collectors just don't matter).
So yes I do believe the industry is headed for a collapse. In the past 20 years their are alot less collectors in my age groupe (at least where I live, I do not know anyone else who collects anymore). Card shops are non-existant (I think the closest one to me is 2 hours away). I the story is probably spot on.
Dave >>
You are Spot on, kids today can't afford $3.00 a pack.
<< <i>Wow, some of these posts are a bit heavy on the gloom and doom. I prefer to think that this hobby is unique because it's all about the sports. As long as professional sports stay wildly popular in this country, I see no reason for any collape of the collecting market. New product may change with the times but the hobby as a whole (especially vintage) will be fine. Relax. >>
The fundamental problem with that perspective is that you are attaching the popularity of professional sports in general with the popularity of collecting sports cards. The two things are not the same at all. The percentage of sports fans out there collecting cards in the first place is extremely low, and while those who collect cards are almost always interested in sports, those who are interested in sports very often have no interest in collecting cardboard.
Edit to add: I do believe wholeheartedly in Stone's (Mike's) perspective about this topic, though, in that all of us here collect baseball cards because we are passionate about the hobby, and that is all that counts. This thread may provide fodder for some interesting debate, but the demise of card collecting is at least decades away in any case, IMO, and I believe we should enjoy this hobby as much as we can for the time we have here.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>I prefer to think that this hobby is unique because it's all about the sports. >>
Exactly right. But people like to collect the players they remember. 1987 Topps cards of Glenn Wilson, Steve Jeltz, and Wayne Tolleson are more interesting to me than a 1968 Johnny Bench rookie card.
As the population ages, there are going to be fewer and fewer people interested in that 1968 Bench card. And the 1987 Topps cards are worthless now. There aren't enough nostalgia collectors like me to cause a spike in 1980s junk. There's just too much of it out there.
Because time doesn't stand still, this creates a constantly moving target, and it's only moving in one direction. After the popularity of the 1968 Bench rookie has diminished and there are no longer nostalgia collectors going after 1980s junk, what happens then? The market was flooded in the 1990s with a lot of crap, the exception being Michael Jordan cards. If you're looking for something to hold value, that's where it's at. Babe Ruth is still Babe Ruth, more than 60 years after his death. Jordan will hold value in the same way.
<< <i>With all due respect, you can't possible compare the sports collecting market with stamp collecting. Total absurdity. >>
Agree.
People will always attend sporting events and be interested in sports history.
Cards are a part of that history and collecting cards is a way to connect to it.
We only go to the Post Office when we have to and you can't buy a beer there ...
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
The Jordan rookie is THE Jordan rookie. And THE Kobe Bryant rookie is what? That is subject to interpretation. Will collectors 50 years from now interpret it the same as we do today?
<< <i>We only go to the Post Office when we have to and you can't buy a beer there ...
>>
Amen brotha Wolfie!
<< <i>Babe Ruth is still Babe Ruth, more than 60 years after his death. Jordan will hold value in the same way.
The Jordan rookie is THE Jordan rookie. And THE Kobe Bryant rookie is what? That is subject to interpretation. Will collectors 50 years from now interpret it the same as we do today? >>
Aside from Kobe Bryant not being Michael Jordan, that's kind of my point. The proliferation in the number of different sets and subsets and insert cards that became available in the 1990s is ultimately, 20-30-40 years from now, going to come back to bite the industry. It's hard enough to collect all 3 rookie cards of players who came up in the 1980s like Mattingly, Sandberg, and Puckett. Griffey had what, five rookie cards (Topps, Donruss, Fleer, Score, Upper Deck)? It only got worse as time went on.
Any kid trying to put together a Kobe Bryant or Albert Pujols rookie collection when he's 35 in 2035 is going to be overwhelmed with the idiocy, gluttony, and greed of the card manufacturers that took place when those players were first coming up as rookies.
Here it is for anyone who has yet to see it. It's pretty awful. They somehow fail to mention how the hobby is booming right now. They base their entire premise of "collapse" on a few people selling commons at a small garbage show and Mr. Mint, who clearly has an axe to grind with an industry that has outed him for the slimeball he is. The funniest part is when AK is looking at a pile of worthless cards and says something along the lines of "So these are all worthless now, huh?". Complete uninformed snuff piece made by people who have NO IDEA about the current state of a hobby that has pretty much been great even during a "recession".
Yeah. I think we were kinda making the same point. I can't imagine that there will be any nostalgia for a collector of 2035 looking back at his buying 2012 cards as a kid.