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Should Mint products and TPG holders meet defined standards for long term storage? What are they?
magikbilly
Posts: 6,780 ✭
We know now, and I suspect it was known to collectors long before, that long term storage in those Lexington wood boxes and other some other types of storage will create toning deemed both "acceptable" and "unacceptable"; is it reasonable to expect a modern Mint product to be sent housed in packaging suitable for long term storage (L&C Pouch) or is the Mint customer supposed to know that is temporary? Will he resell anyway? Have minimum criterion for, or the definition of, long term storage been defined for the hobby? What are the expectations of the collector? Do they differ from the average customer? How could that be handled better?
Should a Mint product holder meet the standards set by the TPG's? What are those???, and where can I read them? With coins in plastics worth thousands, surely this has been covered? Stability. Copper...um...what about lightly hazed Proof 5C? Is that harder to quantify?
Many metals - one plastic or resin best for all?
That sort of thing - minimum clarity and color change over time of the plastic (some old Capital Plastics yellowed), non-inert insert (old small white ANA insert that caused edge tone on Morgans) etc?
What should the life of a slab be?
What about scratch resistance and design?
Should a slab withstand an "attack" as those ASE's years ago and indicate so? Can we (c) insert a strip of reactive paper (?) (?) that indicates if Hydrogen Sulfide gasses have been introduced in quantity or anything funny has gone on? Like a glow stick - break the seal deliberately and it glows green?
Eric
Should a Mint product holder meet the standards set by the TPG's? What are those???, and where can I read them? With coins in plastics worth thousands, surely this has been covered? Stability. Copper...um...what about lightly hazed Proof 5C? Is that harder to quantify?
Many metals - one plastic or resin best for all?
That sort of thing - minimum clarity and color change over time of the plastic (some old Capital Plastics yellowed), non-inert insert (old small white ANA insert that caused edge tone on Morgans) etc?
What should the life of a slab be?
What about scratch resistance and design?
Should a slab withstand an "attack" as those ASE's years ago and indicate so? Can we (c) insert a strip of reactive paper (?) (?) that indicates if Hydrogen Sulfide gasses have been introduced in quantity or anything funny has gone on? Like a glow stick - break the seal deliberately and it glows green?
Eric
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Eric
...i'm still wondering/hoping they solved the spotted lincoln cent syndrome.
<< <i>Good questions. Alot of times in history we have done things or used things we thought were safe only to find out we were wrong. >>
Thanks. With several not knowing they are gas permeable in the other thread (the slabs that is) and with these things on my mind for some time I thought I'd start this thread with regard to Mint products and our hosts slabs.
What do we expect for our $$$ and time? Is this clarified?
Do Mint issues need to come with paperwork stating you should not keep the coin in this packaging - it was "display only"? Is that obvious? Does an average customer know this? Would they care? If they bought these things thinking "well, my kids with get some $" shouldn't they care?
PVC flips comes to mind of course and other events re things we did not see coming. "How long does this plastic last w/o change? Does it become brittle and/or change over time/certain conditions? Does it leak? I was just wondering/hoping these things have been discussed by now with all the big %$$ involved in both the coins and holders?
In some cases (small joke) it seems that the plastic itself, and insert, are adding a large chunk of value, so shouldn't there be some expectations from our side about these little holders? Minimums for performance and the like? Hardness? Color/transparency stability? Was it the ink in the old small ANA holders that caused the tone? Pre-market testing anyone? Not "I'm sure its OK", but quantified and shared data? Toning through a slab sounded mighty stupid to some until those 50 ASE's. Many thought "cherry" wood, felt glues and and oak could not tone coins...but we know they can.
So, what do we expect from our "newly" pronged slabs? What do we think we are already getting that we may not? Some had wrong notions regarding slabs, air and and water.....so, lets clear this up? Does PCGS sell a slab polish for its own product? Why not? Is the insert acid free or buffered? The ink? ??????? Can I keep my US Mint Commemorative in the case I paid for???? Should I be able to? Its your money
eric
Eric
The medical industry spends literally hundreds of millions investigating the material properties of implanted devices. They make screw-ups all the time and some of them are real biggies. Seen any commercials on TV about hip implants? If enormous medical companies with entire buildings full of scientists can't predict how things will react, TPGs have lots of room for error, even if they devote lots of time and money to the problem.
<<The problem with many materials is that it often takes 30 or 50 years to understand what is actualy going to happen.>> BryceM
Yes, that is why it is best to do accelerated testing BEFORE you market something like a coin storage system, but that is another story about coin storage and slabs. In short, it doesn't always work out that way. Sure, many people expect the testing to be done first, makes sense right? But sometimes, it is not.
I was not suggesting any "improvements" - my post was intended to address what collectors expect or think that have already bought by buying a brand slab? Some were very surprised to learn that slabs are gas permeable, not watertight etc. Perhaps it would be a good idea to discuss just what slabs do and don't so, where they should be stored and where not etc. I am sure you knew, as I did, when the Mint announced the L&C leather pouch - I bet you heard the same bells in your head at the mention of leather. But the average collector might not have any idea and think "because the coin came in this package from the Mint it must be safe" and that is not the case all the time. Imagine going to your SDB and finding your L&C damaged ("...but I kept it in what I was supposed to!..Uh..No?). Now, imagine a full run of once brilliant now hazed Proof Liberty 5C - all because you thought it was OK to have them in a normal SDB with your collection of old postcards with rubber bands and you never read this forum so you did not know. My brother drops large sums of $ on coins and would not know what RH even is or believe gas can go through plastic. His coins go into an SDB. I also was wondering if these things have ever been discussed plainly - do we as a hobby have any expectations? We get all bent out of shape when our expectations of others (..."the dealer should have known not to send a coin like that!) are not met. What are our expectations of the slabs and other services provided that we pay for? Do we have any? You speak of what the TPG will or won't do, the room for error. I am talking about collectors having some minimum expectation of performance for storage items and materials used/services rendered. If I have a right to expect a dealer to send a coin in something other than toilet paper, do I have a right to expect a slab to last 5 years? Or that it not yellow? Etc?? Should we not even have these topics things on the table?
Eric
<< <i>What would have happened to those slabbed coins had the TPGs not come along? They'd still be in albums, 2 x 2s, Danscos, etc. I don't think PCGS has an obligation to protect coins above what it takes to secure their guarantee. Seems like there is an opportunity for an enterprising person or compant to devise/invent "archival" quality encapsulation. >>
OK - what is the guarantee for the slab? What does it provide and protect? Color?
I am talking about the unspoken expectations of the consumer. IS technology filled a void IMHO. Who/what will be next?
Eric
Who is the mint for and what are the expectations?
If they sell the coin, how much expense and effort should go into the packaging and everything the packaging is subject to, including time and aging?
Do all customers treat the items the same? Are all items that same?
Proof coinage is different from circulating coins. Still different from bullion. Some are sold as pure collectibles because of the packaging and some are collectible because of how struck or even just a mintmark change.
For me, I don't care as much for the product holders for anything other than proof sets and mint sets, and I wish they just went more simple with those; even as simple as they are these days.
I wish they went back to the double cardboard mint sets....but, as time has shown, those aren't "good" for the coins either.
Imho, the mint should focus on the quality of the coin product and a SIMPLE package. Others will disagree.
If the cost is high, then I slab them or just put them away to enjoy when I take them out. Why do I want to worry about addictive costs of packaging other than what it currently is?
People all have different viewpoints, but for mine, I don't want some worrywart's packaging dilemma to add costs/time to the products I order.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Eric
<< <i>Is it reasonable for the average collector to expect to be able to store a coin in the package he bought it in from the Mint?
Eric >>
Sure. Now, what is the expectation and what is the expense that that same "average collector" would be ok with?
How long should they be expected to store in the OGP?
In the 1950s, there were no TPGS so they were likely to be expected to be store in that packaging. What happened to the coins? Do you consider that "safe storage"? RickO wouldn't
It all comes down to cost and expectations and reasonableness, imho.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>What would have happened to those slabbed coins had the TPGs not come along? They'd still be in albums, 2 x 2s, Danscos, etc. I don't think PCGS has an obligation to protect coins above what it takes to secure their guarantee. Seems like there is an opportunity for an enterprising person or company to devise/invent "archival" quality encapsulation. >>
OK - what is the guarantee for the slab? What does it provide and protect? Color?
I am talking about the unspoken expectations of the consumer. IS technology filled a void IMHO. Who/what will be next?
Eric >>
If the coin changes in the slab due to doctoring/manipulation/etc. that they failed to detect and those changes affect the grade of the coin, then PCGS under the terms of the guarantee will provide compensation for any damages. If you place the coin in a vacuum chamber and suck all of the air out, fill it back up with hydrogen sulfide and the coin turns black, that would not be covered under the guarantee. If you live in an area with a lot of paper mills, near a power plant, chemical plant, etc. damage from those corrosive atmospheres may not be covered. Since the slab is fragile I don't know that it can guarantee anything. The PCGS guarantee likely only applies if the slab is intact with no evidence of tampering.
Eric
Cheers, RickO
Eric
...perhaps now we need a third party "protective slab for slabs" company in the market place to appear.
<< <i>...perhaps now we need a third party "protective slab for slabs" company in the market place to appear.
That would be one option unless the "nattering nabobs of negativity" have some constructive suggestions for how PCGS could accomplish same with not much extra time or $$$ involved? Would you pay $50 extra for a PCGS "super secure" slab?
Eric
<< <i>For clarity (I know, why I am starting now, well...LOL) I am NOT advocating any changes to anything but what the hobby as a whole thinks, expects and actually gets from a slab. I was trying to start a discussion. I was startled to see what some folks thing slabs do and can't do, esp with some of the $ involved in what seems to be the plastic part of the equation for at least some coins.
Eric >>
There doesn't seem to be any discussion of the slab itself on the PCGS site. I would think PCGS's goals for the slab are physical protection from intentional and accidental damage. If enough customers want/expect more in the way of protection, then perhaps sme enterprising person will find a way to do it for them.