Tripling on Chickasaw Park Quarter - please explain how this happened

tincup · January 27, 2012 9:00AM

Noticed some neat tripling/doubling on a Chickasaw Park quarter. The tripling/doubling is around the perimeter, on all of the incuse lettering and the date, with the tripling/doubling all on the outside of the letters. The tripling is most pronounced on the OKLAHOMA and partially on the date; the other words appear to be more like doubling.

Tripled Die? Doubled Die? Machine doubling? Machine doubling seems unlikely since there is tripling, and the effect is all on the outside of the letters, towards the rim. Is machine doubling possible with incuse lettering? Any ideas?

Timbuk3 · January 27, 2012 10:11AM

I dunno, but it sure looks cool !!!

sanitarium1inmate · January 27, 2012 11:43AM

Now that looks really trippy man. cool find.

Cam40 · January 27, 2012 11:47AM

I think it has more to do with die wear than how the die was made to begin with.

OldEastside · January 27, 2012 11:49AM

Makes me wonder if quadruple dies are shelf doubling of double dies??

Steve

stealer · January 27, 2012 11:52AM

<< <i>Makes me wonder if quadruple dies are shelf doubling of double dies??

Steve >>

Great, all those varieties now need to be rechecked

coinsarefun · January 27, 2012 12:19PM

I think it's hub doubling IMO

tincup · January 27, 2012 12:35PM

If it was die wear, I would expect to see signs of that in the central design also. The central design looks to be uneffected. The doubling/tripling is just on the incused lettering around the perimeter. Also, wouldn't die wear show as misshapen letters rather than showing distinct doubling/tripling?

cmerlo1 · January 27, 2012 12:42PM

Innnnnteresting. The fact that the spread is outward toward the rim makes me think it is strike-related, IMO, and not hub doubling. It sure has 'character', though!

keyman64 · January 27, 2012 12:43PM

Very cool find! Congrats!

tincup · January 27, 2012 1:12PM

<< <i>Innnnnteresting. The fact that the spread is outward toward the rim makes me think it is strike-related, IMO, and not hub doubling. It sure has 'character', though! >>

I have not included photos showing the other side of the coin. The incuse lettering on the other side also shows the same type of doubling, outwards towards the rim. I would think if it was related to strike, the doubling would be shifted all in one direction. With this coin, it is all outwards towards the rim. Not ruling out that it may be related to strike but I have difficulty picturing how that would occur.

US coins have not had much incuse lettering or designs, so it is difficult for me to know what types of doubling can occur with it. Anyone know of any incuse lettering coins that have a doubled or tripled die?

Appreciate the input and comments....

WoodenJefferson · January 27, 2012 1:16PM

It's hard to image incused design in the brain, like pictures of craters on the moon, what I do not understand is how the serifs are smaller than the actual design element. I'm sure there is a logical explanation, hopefully others familiar with incused designs will weigh in.

tincup · January 27, 2012 1:24PM

Yeh, it does look like the designs tend to taper down a little closer to the rim.

I'm wondering if this may be a new type of doubling... something that relates specifically to the 'pressing' of the design into the die when there is an incuse design involved. Perhaps there is some 'bounce' or 'skip' as the design is being pressed in?

Type2 · January 27, 2012 1:37PM

Very cool... is it a "P" or a "D"?

ricko · January 28, 2012 12:10AM

Now that is different... where is Fred?? This is worthy of some analysis. Cheers, RickO

johnny9434 · January 28, 2012 2:54AM

id like to find a few dozen of them.

tincup · January 28, 2012 3:04AM

<< <i>It's hard to image incused design in the brain, like pictures of craters on the moon, what I do not understand is how the serifs are smaller than the actual design element. I'm sure there is a logical explanation, hopefully others familiar with incused designs will weigh in. >>

Have to agree with that. Looking at an incuse design is waaay different than what we are used to seeing. I've been looking at this coin, trying to see if perhaps it is an optical illusion due to the incuse design... but I don't think it is. The angle of the photograph is the angle in which the doubling/tripling can be best seen, but when the coin is rotated and the word OKLAHOMA is viewed from the side, the doubling /tripling is still there and clear. So it does seem to be there and not just an illusion.

JRocco · January 28, 2012 3:44AM

Mechanical doubling can and does occur on coins with both relief and incuse designs.
The 1983-84 Olympic dollars are commonly seen with strike doubling on the incuse date.
Look for a reversal of the doubling or tripling between the incuse desing and the relief design.
If the incuse doubling is seen to the south you might see relief doubling to the north.

tincup · January 28, 2012 3:54AM

So far I have not found any indications of any doubling on the relief design elements.

pf70collector · January 28, 2012 4:09AM

The design seems to be prone to machine doubling. My 5 oz Yosemite has severe doubling occuring in the same areas as your coin.

tincup · January 28, 2012 4:19AM

Can machine doubling result in tripling or more? Or the spreading towards the rim around the entire coin? That is what I find difficult to relate to machine doubling with this coin. Not saying that is not what it is... just have a difficult time to picture that happening based on my concept of how machine doubling occurs.

tincup · January 28, 2012 4:21AM

As I look more closely at the A of OKLAHOMA, there are some indications that it is quadrupled, though it is very close together and hard to tell.

JRocco · January 28, 2012 5:28AM

<< <i>Can machine doubling result in tripling or more? Or the spreading towards the rim around the entire coin? That is what I find difficult to relate to machine doubling with this coin. Not saying that is not what it is... just have a difficult time to picture that happening based on my concept of how machine doubling occurs. >>

Yes, machine tripling and quadrupling can happen as the die tends to "chatter" sometimes. I have opened rolls of Lincolns and seen multiple coins with the same machine tripling as the dies tend to get a rhythm to them sometimes.
There are 2 main types of machine doubling, push doubling and slide doubling. Slide doubling tends to effect a smaller area of the coin than push doubling.

JRocco · January 28, 2012 5:48AM

I was able to find the disc that contained some older pics I took that might help.
Here is a machine tripled coin. Sorry for the weenie close-ups...

And here is a really interesting one.
At least 4 strikes here.

frnklnlvr · January 28, 2012 7:23PM

It's machine doubling. There was another thread by 19Lyds with one of the 5 oz. pieces that explained how machine doubling on incuse lettering resembles hub doubling.

tincup · January 28, 2012 10:27PM

Thanks for the photos, JRocco. That is one odd looking 'we' in that cent!

tincup · January 28, 2012 10:44PM

frnklnlvr, I tried to look up that thread, but the one that I found had the pics deleted so did not do me much good.

However, one of the links in the thread led to the Variety Vista web site that proved interesting, since it had good photos of a doubled die 1984-W gold coin. This coin has the word OLYMPIAD incuse, so would be a good indication of what doubled die incuse lettering would look like. A couple of interesting observations for me:

First, the doubled image is tapered, and smaller than the final lettering, and does not have any serifs. That would explain the 'tapered' images of the quarter that I posted. But... perhaps that may also be a characteristic of machine doubling with an incuse design, I don't know at this point.

Another point really stood out to me about the doubling on the incuse lettering of the gold coin. The doubled image is wavy, and irregular along the lines. As I think about how dies are made, this would make sense to me regarding doubled dies with incuse lettering. Perhaps the irregular lines of the doubled letter may be a characteristic for identifying incuse doubled dies. As I look at the doubled/tripled images of the quarter I posted, the doubled/tripled letters are all totally straight and even.

Based on input from posters, and the photos I have been able to look at, I am leaning towards machine doubling as the cause. Any other ideas out there?

Tripling on Chickasaw Park Quarter - please explain how this happened

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