is this 93s morgan pcgs slab real? edited culprit caught at local coin show

jzbrown · January 13, 2012 4:10AM

So the guy that was here yesterday traveled down to hot springs Arkansas to a coin show. Little did he know that I had called the owner, who was there and he had spread the word.
Security hauled him out right away.
Is this pawning off counterfeit coinage illegal in any way?

Russ · January 13, 2012 4:12AM

Looks fine to me.

Russ, NCNE

donzme · January 13, 2012 4:16AM

The coin looks better than a 40, but more importantly doesn't pass diagnostics.

http://anacs.com/contentPages/ShowArticle.aspx?ID=48

AUandAG · January 13, 2012 4:22AM

The mintmark placement and rotation seems to be off. Can't tell on the date placement (too
tired eyes for this).
Compare the details with this: PCGS XF40

bob

SeattleSlammer · January 13, 2012 4:35AM

Coin looks whizzed/polished.

19Lyds · January 13, 2012 4:35AM

<< The coin looks better than a 40......... >>

Thats my take on it as well and if the coin isn't an XF40 then the slab becomes very questionable.

Staircoins · January 13, 2012 4:37AM

Spacing looks wrong on the font.

I vote fake.

TomB · January 13, 2012 4:39AM

I don't think that is real.

jzbrown · January 13, 2012 4:42AM

also the slab insert is a light lavender -- That was what makes me wonder about it. Plus he has a raw 1799 dollar that he "got from his grandfather" and he knows it has to be real.

jzbrown · January 13, 2012 4:44AM

a couple of close ups of the coin.

TennesseeDave · January 13, 2012 4:48AM

<< Spacing looks wrong on the font.

I vote fake. >>

donzme · January 13, 2012 4:52AM

The closeups confirm for me that this is a fake.

The body of the "1" in the date doesn't line up with a denticle, and the mint mark placement is completely wrong.

This appears to be one of those coins made from two halves of other coins.

stealer · January 13, 2012 4:54AM

Fake slab, fake coin.

coinkid855 · January 13, 2012 5:01AM

That coin looks terrible. Obviously a Chinese counterfeit. Yuck!

-Paul

jzbrown · January 13, 2012 5:05AM

Thanks for the support and information.
Kinda scary that one of these can walk in the door in a small town in Arkansas.
Someone around here is probably going to get screwed, he left before I got the information.
And if it is a two coin counterfeit, maybe that is one of the reasons to go to prongs.

kaz · January 13, 2012 5:05AM

The 1 in the date isn't centered over the dentil. Fake coin; thus the slab must be fake or tampered with, I say fake because of problems with the paper in the insert and the printing.

LanceNewmanOCC · January 13, 2012 5:19AM

.
not authentic and the coin appears to not be silver as well
.
where is this item?
.

jzbrown · January 13, 2012 5:30AM

Lance - in a small town in Arkansas. Scary really

JJM · January 13, 2012 5:33AM

fake, no doubt about it

Russ · January 13, 2012 5:35AM

Based on subsequent responses to this thread, I revise my assessment to the following:

Looks fake to me.

(OOPS!)

Russ, NCNE

BillJones · January 13, 2012 5:41AM

Fake slab, fake coin

The die work is not right, but it's still scary that they can get this close with the holder.

LanceNewmanOCC · January 13, 2012 5:53AM

<< Lance - in a small town in Arkansas. Scary really >>

Jim,

Thank you.

If it were listed somewhere online, I was going to inform the seller of the bad news.
.

VMRCC · January 13, 2012 6:12AM

"Walk in the door"? B&M I assume? What is the story?

Timbuk3 · January 13, 2012 6:15AM

Front label looks fishy as well as the coin !!!
I vote "fake" !!!

LeeBone · January 13, 2012 6:48AM

<< 

<< The coin looks better than a 40......... >>

Thats my take on it as well and if the coin isn't an XF40 then the slab becomes very questionable. >>

jzbrown · January 13, 2012 6:58AM

VMRCC - here is the story
B&M yes in a small town in northwest Arkansas
A young kid about 20-25 comes in and says he has a few coins to sell that he got from his grandfather.
1st thing out was a pcgs graded 500.00 bill
2nd thing was the above coin.
3rd thing was a 1997 dollar that he said he was not going to sell. (this coin weighed right and was the correct diamater but I did not get a photo.
So with the funny color of the insert, I went to the pro's here. The number also checked okay on belonging to a 93s xf 40
Then he pulls out a pcgs graded saint and did not let me handle that, said he was storing up his gold.

I gave him the number and said call tomorrow, I would know more and since there were so many fakes I had to check around.
He said he would but there were a few auctioneers he thought might be interested in selling them for him.

All in all I never thought I would see one of these around here. Figured the big cities were just more likely to have this going on.

MilkmanDan · January 13, 2012 7:04AM

I think this is very likely a "split coin" in a fake slab. I previously dealt with a 93-CC that I believe was made by the same person who cooked up this one. PM me if you need details and I can send you pics of that slab.

Question, is the ink on the holder sheet glossy or matte? That was one of the tells. It should be matte. Other tells are the hologram alignment and discolored gasket around the coin. The P C G S font is not spaced right either. Oh yes, and then there's the coin which doesn't match the grade on the holder!

michiganboy · January 13, 2012 7:07AM

Fake, Theres some website I seen linked somewhere that actually sells fake coins in fake pcgs slabs just like this for like $20-$50 a piece. It was linked on some coin related site talking about a dealer getting busted for selling these to his customers for a few years. Hopefully the site been shut down, but like everyone else said coin does not match the grade and looks horrible in your close up shots

LanLord · January 13, 2012 7:20AM

that slab does worry me, I was thinking as I was looking at it, I'm pretty sure it's a fake slab, the font looks wrong, so I started to look at the characteristics of the coin to see if it matched known 1893-s characteristics. Then it struck me, WTF, that is one of the things a slab should protect you from! But NOOOOOOOOOO, not any more.

the big guys really better put a fuddernutter lot more work into making counterfeit slabs a piece of history or they may find their gravey train turning into a grave train.

braddick · January 13, 2012 7:28AM

If you're putting together a date set I have an 1894 that matches yours perfectly.

Staircoins · January 13, 2012 7:42AM

<< VMRCC - here is the story
B&M yes in a small town in northwest Arkansas
A young kid about 20-25 comes in and says he has a few coins to sell that he got from his grandfather.
1st thing out was a pcgs graded 500.00 bill
2nd thing was the above coin.
3rd thing was a 1997 dollar that he said he was not going to sell. (this coin weighed right and was the correct diamater but I did not get a photo.
So with the funny color of the insert, I went to the pro's here. The number also checked okay on belonging to a 93s xf 40
Then he pulls out a pcgs graded saint and did not let me handle that, said he was storing up his gold.

I gave him the number and said call tomorrow, I would know more and since there were so many fakes I had to check around.
He said he would but there were a few auctioneers he thought might be interested in selling them for him.

All in all I never thought I would see one of these around here. Figured the big cities were just more likely to have this going on. >>

Would love to see a scan of the PCGS $500 note also, if possible. I wonder if it's in a fake holder also?

truthteller · January 13, 2012 8:24AM

Fake slabs and fake coins are everywhere. I live in a small population area and these coins show up at the local coin shops all the time. The Chinese fakes are firmly entrenched in the mainstream coin market, so there is nothing to protect the collector other than knowledge. If you know how to buy coins raw, than you should not have a problem. If you need a holder to make you feel safe, think again.

TRUTH

JRocco · January 13, 2012 8:28AM

<< Fake slabs and fake coins are everywhere. I live in a small population area and these coins show up at the local coin shops all the time. The Chinese fakes are firmly entrenched in the mainstream coin market, so there is nothing to protect the collector other than knowledge. If you know how to buy coins raw, than you should not have a problem. If you need a holder to make you feel safe, think again.

TRUTH >>

80% of the forum just ran to the bathroom.....

ebaytrader · January 13, 2012 9:11AM

<< 

<< Fake slabs and fake coins are everywhere. I live in a small population area and these coins show up at the local coin shops all the time. The Chinese fakes are firmly entrenched in the mainstream coin market, so there is nothing to protect the collector other than knowledge. If you know how to buy coins raw, than you should not have a problem. If you need a holder to make you feel safe, think again.

TRUTH >>

80% of the forum just ran to the bathroom..... >>

90+%

LanLord · January 13, 2012 9:12AM

<< Fake slabs and fake coins are everywhere. I live in a small population area and these coins show up at the local coin shops all the time. The Chinese fakes are firmly entrenched in the mainstream coin market, so there is nothing to protect the collector other than knowledge. If you know how to buy coins raw, than you should not have a problem. If you need a holder to make you feel safe, think again.

TRUTH >>

The issue does make the newbie less likely to trust in slabs, and that's a challenge to the next generation of collectors and therefore a potential challenge to the value of your slabbed coins. Even if you don't worry about buying a fake slab, it can affect you in a round about way.

VMRCC · January 13, 2012 9:18AM

<< VMRCC - here is the story
B&M yes in a small town in northwest Arkansas
A young kid about 20-25 comes in and says he has a few coins to sell that he got from his grandfather.
1st thing out was a pcgs graded 500.00 bill
2nd thing was the above coin.
3rd thing was a 1997 dollar that he said he was not going to sell. (this coin weighed right and was the correct diamater but I did not get a photo.
So with the funny color of the insert, I went to the pro's here. The number also checked okay on belonging to a 93s xf 40
Then he pulls out a pcgs graded saint and did not let me handle that, said he was storing up his gold.

I gave him the number and said call tomorrow, I would know more and since there were so many fakes I had to check around.
He said he would but there were a few auctioneers he thought might be interested in selling them for him.

All in all I never thought I would see one of these around here. Figured the big cities were just more likely to have this going on. >>

I live well outside of the city where most of my business is conducted, yet have seen more counterfeits here than in the metro area. It is totally possible that people trying to offload such "coins" assume this may be easier to do in more out of the way places. It can happen anywhere.

As has already been mentioned, correct cert numbers are far from a guarantee of authenticity these days. Although some do inherit coins, if I had a dollar for every time I've heard the "grandfather" story... well, you get the point. Maybe I am being overly cynical, but chances are that this kid knows darn well the "coin" (or "coins") are counterfeit and his telling you of the auctioneers was a last-ditch attempt to get you to jump. Kudos for doing the right thing and coming here for advice.

JRocco · January 13, 2012 9:22AM

<< 

<< 

<< Fake slabs and fake coins are everywhere. I live in a small population area and these coins show up at the local coin shops all the time. The Chinese fakes are firmly entrenched in the mainstream coin market, so there is nothing to protect the collector other than knowledge. If you know how to buy coins raw, than you should not have a problem. If you need a holder to make you feel safe, think again.

TRUTH >>

80% of the forum just ran to the bathroom..... >>

90+% >>

Imodium AD sales will "boom" in the overnight hours nationwide...

topstuf · January 13, 2012 10:23AM

Bottle caps. Yes, bottle caps sound fun to collect.

OldEastside · January 13, 2012 11:39AM

Exellent lesson

Thanx all

Steve

GoldenEyeNumismatics · January 13, 2012 11:59AM

I bet you they lifted the cert number from Heritage archives.

kaz · January 13, 2012 12:05PM

I've posted this before, but here is a large collection of fake coins/slabs imaged by the CoinforgeryeBay group.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/coinforgeryebay/

link to photos

coinkid855 · January 13, 2012 3:48PM

<< I think this is very likely a "split coin" in a fake slab. I previously dealt with a 93-CC that I believe was made by the same person who cooked up this one. PM me if you need details and I can send you pics of that slab.

Question, is the ink on the holder sheet glossy or matte? That was one of the tells. It should be matte. Other tells are the hologram alignment and discolored gasket around the coin. The P C G S font is not spaced right either. Oh yes, and then there's the coin which doesn't match the grade on the holder! >>

A split coin? Not a chance. That is 100% a die struck counterfeit. After seeing so many of these, I can tell just by the luster and the frosty look of the hair and face that it's a fake, and a pretty bad one at that.

-Paul

D · January 13, 2012 3:58PM

This is really more of a "buy the coin, not the holder" scenario than anything. That dollar looks like an absolute dog. Not even a normal dog, like one of the no-haired-teethless-skin-condition-ridden-halfbreed dogs. Oh, and it was half-bred with a naked mole rat.

Fake vs REAL morgan slabs.

-D

jzbrown · January 14, 2012 2:17AM

I reposted my info in the title but this creep kid got caught because everyone was looking out for him.
Maybe the coin world needs something like the old wanted posters in the Post office.

OldEastside · January 14, 2012 3:56AM

Was he arrested or just kicked out?
I for one am very interested in following
this. PLEASE KEEP US POSTED

Steve

jzbrown · January 14, 2012 4:31AM

Just kicked out is what I was told. It seems it would be illegal to try and sell counterfeit coins. I know trying to pass off paper as the real thing, gets people arrested every time they are caught in the act.

is this 93s morgan pcgs slab real? edited culprit caught at local coin show

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