Where are all the beauties coming from?

topstuf · January 5, 2012 3:29AM

I was a dealer until retirement for 30 years. I.....(almost) NEVER.... saw coins coming in (or at shows) that were anywhere NEAR where the toned offerings of today are.

"Dip" was EVERYWHERE!

These gems aren't sitting unnoticed in attics, are they? Are "old time" collectors divesting holdings en masse?

Today's offerings (albeit at monster pricing....comparatively) are head and shoulders above the quality of "new" coins coming to market during my time.

What think?

Unknown · January 5, 2012 3:38AM

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roadrunner · January 5, 2012 3:47AM

<< I was a dealer until retirement for 30 years. I.....(almost) NEVER.... saw coins coming in (or at shows) that were anywhere NEAR where the toned offerings of today are.

"Dip" was EVERYWHERE!

These gems aren't sitting unnoticed in attics, are they? Are "old time" collectors divesting holdings en masse?

Today's offerings (albeit at monster pricing....comparatively) are head and shoulders above the quality of "new" coins coming to market during my time.

What think? >>

You said it. I was actively looking for gemmy bust, seated, and barber coins from 1975-1990 and you rarely ever saw toners. I recall seeing some in the Benton Emory
Barber coins and a few specialized collections like that, but for the most part they weren't around. Gem coins of that period almost always had neutral toning, especially
seated and bust. James Stack and Norweb didn't have all that many toners as well. It definitely seems that these started coming out of the woodwook in the 1998-2008
period. Colorful toning on a gem bust half? That was almost unheard of! But not today!

No doubt higher prices for the best stuff and more slabbing has brought more gem coins out of hiding. But I don't think it brought more "colorful" coins out of hiding.

roadrunner

Unknown · January 5, 2012 3:49AM

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roadrunner · January 5, 2012 4:13AM

I think the % gain in colorful bust halves is probably one of the biggest gainers in the pre-1933 era. But in that pre-1990 period I didn't see many toners in
Walkers, Buffs, SLQ's, Morgans, Mercs, etc. Now those are almost commonplace. Seated coins were either blast white (dipped) or a fairly neutral gray/silver/brown.
These days you have a 3rd option....gloriously rainbow toned. Well kept proof coins are an exception as many as those were around even 30 yrs ago. I'm speaking more
to mint state coins.

Maybe it's just a reflection of all the coins Topstuf and I dipped in the 70's and 80's and are now coming home to roost after a few decades sitting in albums and
paper envelopes?

roadrunner

Unknown · January 5, 2012 4:17AM

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CalGold · January 5, 2012 4:41AM

Take a look at the catalog for the 1946 Atw_ter sale that can be found in the PCGS research archive. That was a collection filled with classic rarities. You will not find a single coin praised for beautiful toning. Not one. Rather, only a handful are described as exhibiting “iridescence” and many coins are praised as looking like they did the day they left the mint. So either Mr. Atw_ter was acquiring dipped coins, or was dipping his coins, or his coins were dipped prior to the sale. If they were dipped to promote sale, and Max Mehl was a great promoter, one can only conclude that it was done because that is what collectors wanted back then. Consider too that many Eliasberg--Clapp coins exhibit golden toning with creamy centers rather than rainbow toning. Were they toned in that fashion when Mr. Eliasberg purchased the Clapp collection? We know that Eliasberg had custom plastic holders made to house his coins at some point, but how did Clapp house those coins in days before plastic? Did the Clapp coins tone golden in the Eliasberg holders? If so, were they white when Eliasberg acquired them?

CG

golfer72 · January 5, 2012 7:53AM

A good portion are AT apparently. There is no other explanation.

rhedden · January 5, 2012 7:59AM

A good portion are AT apparently. There is no other explanation.

Finally, someone said it.

ambro51 · January 5, 2012 8:04AM

its funny this is mentioned today...just this morning I was studying the color plate in the front of a 2001 stacks catalog....and almost NONE of the silver showed any toning at all...................................

Spkrmakr · January 5, 2012 8:41AM

We have become educated and sophisticated. Dipping is no longer politically or socially acceptable. About the only thing that I agree with in terms of not being acceptable!

19Lyds · January 5, 2012 8:42AM

<< A good portion are AT apparently. There is no other explanation.

Finally, someone said it. >>

Possibly a combination of both AT and NT.

Mankind in general is very good at supplying what everybody seems to want and unlike 30 years ago (as the OP stated) white is now out and color is in. With color being the "in" thing, look for more and more to show up. Some NT (Natural Toning) with a good deal of them AT (Assisted Toning).

Other than the pretty colors (oooo looky here honey!) I see no reason to collect these since I prefer them "as minted". Folks 30 years ago did too. Today's technology makes it very difficult to distinguish unless a chemical is added to the surface. Other than that, it simply falls into someones opinion based upon what they've seen.

LindeDad · January 5, 2012 9:05AM

When did storing of coins in albums become popular? And what did those albums do to the coins left in them for a decade or more?

Broadstruck · January 5, 2012 9:14AM

<< When did storing of coins in albums become popular? >>

Wayte Raymond boards and coin albums where heavily advertised in the late 1930's.

CalGold · January 5, 2012 10:39AM

Toning does not have to be AT conjured up by some coin doc a week before submission for grading. What we now consider to be "old time" collections are those that were assembled anywhere from the 1950s through the 1980s. A white coin sitting in an envelope or cardboard album or even a velvet lined tray for that amount of time would acquire a good bit of toning. So those white coins that the OP saw at auction or on the bourse 30 years ago might now legitimately be toned. They might not be "original" but originality may not be determinable or may be of minor importance if the toning is attractive or "original" looking. In short, I think the better conclusion is not that all or most toned coins are doctored but rather that coins offered as original, or that you think look original, might not be in the strict sense of the word.*

*Some would argue that any toned coin is not original since it did not leave the mint with toning.

Edited to add: Of course a lot of toned coins probably are AT'd to some degree but if they look like NT so that the market and the TPGs accept them as such, what is your alternative as a collector? Buying coins that have been dipped white?
CG

DoubleEagle59 · January 5, 2012 10:46AM

We all know you couldn't find a toned coin in a 1970's coin show.

Collectors and dealers were dipping everything.

It does make you wonder how original all these toned coins are nowadays....even the best looking ones.

I saw recently a box of originally toned 1910 through 1930 Canadian quarters and I must say, you don't quite see them like that even today.

They were mostly very dark, yet they had a fantastic luster!!

You just knew that they were never dipped and I must admit, the impulse to dip them was pretty strong because you just knew they were going to come up frosty blast white!

How do I know they are original? Because I know the owner very well. Very Old-time collector that has had these since the early 60's.

CalGold · January 5, 2012 10:53AM

<< You just knew that they were never dipped and I must admit, the impulse to dip them was pretty strong because you just knew they were going to come up frosty blast white!

How do I know they are original? Because I know the owner very well. Very Old-time collector that has had these since the early 60's. >>

Dipping darkly toned coins is more likely to result in coins with a gray cast and subdued luster. Those may be suitable for storage in an envelope until they tone up again. Did your friend tell you that the coins were toned when he acquired them? Or were they white and toned up in his collection? Again, the markets were full of dipped white coins in the 60's.

CG

DoubleEagle59 · January 5, 2012 12:43PM

<< 

<< You just knew that they were never dipped and I must admit, the impulse to dip them was pretty strong because you just knew they were going to come up frosty blast white!

How do I know they are original? Because I know the owner very well. Very Old-time collector that has had these since the early 60's. >>

Dipping darkly toned coins is more likely to result in coins with a gray cast and subdued luster. Those may be suitable for storage in an envelope until they tone up again. Did your friend tell you that the coins were toned when he acquired them? Or were they white and toned up in his collection? Again, the markets were full of dipped white coins in the 60's.

CG >>

I forgot to mention, the coins I saw were all high end MS coins, not au50's that maybe you were thinking of CalGold.

If they were circulated to AU, then I would agree with your reply.

But these were different......when do you ever see a darkly toned, high luster, ms66 coin?

Only one that is old, pristine and absolutely never been dipped.

melvin289 · January 5, 2012 12:51PM

<< A good portion are AT apparently. There is no other explanation. >>

I tend to agree. When I first started buying in the late 60's you never saw toned coins. Not like you see now. I think that is the biggest reason I don't put much stock in them.

Ron

TomB · January 5, 2012 1:02PM

Here is an observation. You can see quality images of many hundreds if not thousands of coins via the internet while simply clicking your mouse. This ability to pour through images would dwarf all but the most busy or large dealerships that existed into the late 1990s or perhaps somewhat later. Also, these boards and the registry allow folks to share their best, most colorful or highest graded coins with all who are interested. Previous to these abilities (quality digital photography, discussion boards, registry sets, near ubiquitous internet connectivity) it might be that the great majority of the wonderful coins shared would only be known the local coin club members, if at all.

Unknown · January 5, 2012 1:05PM

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Baley · January 5, 2012 1:34PM

Most of the "bag toned" rainbow Morgans with lots of pink, and high grade bust halves with white centers and blue rims, look artificially toned to me.

Justacommeman · January 5, 2012 2:31PM

I still don't see a lot of "beautifully" toned coins on the bourse or at auction and I collect them. Outside of Morgans I only saw a few beautifully toned coins at FUN and I scoured the bourse. I agree with TomB's post and TDN's views on the subject. I can live with market acceptable or not market acceptable even knowing it's a moving target. The whole AT/NT thing is overrated in my opinion. It is what it is. It's hobby for me.

MJ

Unknown · January 5, 2012 3:02PM

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melvin289 · January 5, 2012 3:15PM

<< 

<< I still don't see a lot of "beautifully" toned coins on the bourse or at auction and I collect them. Outside of Morgans I only saw a few beautifully toned coins at FUN and I scoured the bourse. I agree with TomB's post and TDN's views on the subject. I can live with market acceptable or not market acceptable even knowing it's a moving target. The whole AT/NT thing is overrated in my opinion. It is what it is. It's hobby for me.

MJ >>

A healthy approach to he coin collecting HOBBY if you ask me. However don't forget, there are many coins that have been socked away for 20+ years, gemmy and colorful and totally original and in older holders, lets not forget that and when they come along they should be snapped up

>>

I have many coins that have not seen the light of day for 20 to 40 years. When I do go looking, I don't find toning like we see on a lot of the coins posted on the Forum. Maybe I just don't store them under conditions that are condusive to tone them. A few coins modern coins I have here at work in plastic bags are turning a nice golden color but beyond that, nothing. Will edit to add a pic in a few minutes.

In a plastic bag in my desk at work for 2 or 3 years.

In a bank envelope for 20 years.

Ron

Unknown · January 5, 2012 3:31PM

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GoldenEyeNumismatics · January 5, 2012 3:54PM

<< We have become educated and sophisticated. Dipping is no longer politically or socially acceptable. About the only thing that I agree with in terms of not being acceptable! >>

Education and sophistication have nothing to do with it. It's just what the market currently wants.

Lehigh96 · January 5, 2012 5:59PM

<< Here is an observation. You can see quality images of many hundreds if not thousands of coins via the internet while simply clicking your mouse. This ability to pour through images would dwarf all but the most busy or large dealerships that existed into the late 1990s or perhaps somewhat later. Also, these boards and the registry allow folks to share their best, most colorful or highest graded coins with all who are interested. Previous to these abilities (quality digital photography, discussion boards, registry sets, near ubiquitous internet connectivity) it might be that the great majority of the wonderful coins shared would only be known the local coin club members, if at all. >>

Tom,

I completely agree with this assessment as you and I have had this discussion before on other forums. IMO, the two biggest reasons for the increased popularity of rainbow toned coins over the last two decades is the advancement in digital photography technology and explosion of the Internet.

I remember hearing a story about a collector who visited his local coin shop in the 80's and told the apprentice working the counter that he wanted to see uncirculated Morgan Dollars. When the coin shop owner appeared from the back and saw the customer, he immediately told the apprentice "oh he likes his coin with a nice patina on them" and proceeded to go in the back to find his inventory of toned coins. The fact is that toned coins have always existed, but for the most part, nobody wanted them until the late 90's. Before that, they were either kept in private hidden stash by your local B&M coin dealer or they were dipped. But just because they didn't appear in dealer display cases doesn't mean that they didn't exist and is not evidence that the toned coins hitting the market today are AT. It is understandable that people jump to that conclusion, but when all scenarios are considered, assuming that fresh toned material is AT does not make sense.

notwilight · January 5, 2012 6:04PM

<< A good portion are AT apparently. There is no other explanation. >>

Not a scientist are you. There are lots of other possible explanations. If the total surviving population of collectible coins is much much larger than the population of coins circulating at shows and dealers inventory at one time then the snapshot you see at any time isn't representative of majority of the coins but is really just a shapshot of what is being traded, what is popular, at the time.

Dipped goes out of style, those coins go back into collections. Toning gets popular, those coins get sold. Demand for a type of coin drives up prices and brings them out.

I haven't done the research to say that is the way it is but it is definitely another possible explanation.

--Jerry

ricko · January 5, 2012 10:12PM

Certainly there is logic in what TomB has said (as well as a couple of others), however, without discounting their inputs, many are beginning to realize that what is valued today is different than 15 to 20 years ago. Technology today allows coins to be tarnished to exhibit colors and patterns that appeal to the current buyers and are undetectable as being artificially tarnished. Yes, many older, natural coins do exist and are finding their way to market.. but the mix is likely more AT than NT. With the skilled processes now being applied, only the perpetrator knows for sure. Cheers, RickO

ColonialCoinUnion · January 5, 2012 10:23PM

<< Here is an observation. You can see quality images of many hundreds if not thousands of coins via the internet while simply clicking your mouse. This ability to pour through images would dwarf all but the most busy or large dealerships that existed into the late 1990s or perhaps somewhat later. Also, these boards and the registry allow folks to share their best, most colorful or highest graded coins with all who are interested. Previous to these abilities (quality digital photography, discussion boards, registry sets, near ubiquitous internet connectivity) it might be that the great majority of the wonderful coins shared would only be known the local coin club members, if at all. >>

I agree with everything Tom has written here (except his use of pour instead of pore).

Unknown · January 6, 2012 1:51AM

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topstuf · January 6, 2012 1:59AM

I'm speaking mainly of larger shows like Long Beach and the old.... Jack Tar.... SF shows. VERY few coins that weren't white. If they weren't, they got dipped.

And random toning just doesn't explain the proliferation of really NICE ones you see today in quantities that make me wonder if the number of "old time" collectors are just selling now.

These would have to be coins that have sat untouched in SDBs all over and family taking them out. Also odd is that families now seem to be able to FIND the dealers who are higher end.

I spent hours inside vaults in the 70's with some collections. Most were "dreck."

It just seems odd (or a new paradigm) that better coins are coming to market than ever before in my experience.

Higashiyama · January 6, 2012 2:08AM

In the mid-1970s, when I started collecting commemoratives, all of the following were quite common:

1. Colorfully toned coins

2. Coins will neutral or rather ugly toning

3. More or less white coins

4. Dipped out coins

Regarding "pore" -- I've been making that mistake for years.

BaseballAbs · January 6, 2012 2:08AM

<< A good portion are AT apparently. There is no other explanation.

Finally, someone said it. >>

I have seen many coins now a days with luster and toning. AT and luster don't go together do they?

TheBigB · January 6, 2012 2:11AM

<< It just seems odd (or a new paradigm) that better coins are coming to market than ever before in my experience. >>

and this happens to coincide with the expansion of Taco Bell locations over the past decades.

CalGold · January 6, 2012 4:25AM

A while ago I perused through some auction catalogs from the early 1980s. The covers and color plates included coins that were white, colorfully toned coins, or toned in drab or neutral colors. I think one could conclude that it has been a mixed bag for quite a while.

But dwelling on how our coins were treated in the past is just a matter of speculation, while believing that our toned coins are all original and have never been dipped makes us happy, and hobbies are about happiness, right?

CG

littlebear · January 6, 2012 5:56AM

<< Here is an observation. You can see quality images of many hundreds if not thousands of coins via the internet while simply clicking your mouse. This ability to pour through images would dwarf all but the most busy or large dealerships that existed into the late 1990s or perhaps somewhat later. Also, these boards and the registry allow folks to share their best, most colorful or highest graded coins with all who are interested. Previous to these abilities (quality digital photography, discussion boards, registry sets, near ubiquitous internet connectivity) it might be that the great majority of the wonderful coins shared would only be known the local coin club members, if at all. >>

All excellent points. What must also be pointed out is that back in the 70's, toned coins were not as popular. People who collected them (like myself) were called "color freaks." The preference at the time was that "fresh dipped" look. I witnessed many toned coins being destroyed in dip, even at the shows. There were very few dealers who actually dealt in toned coins. They were indeed a minority. Undoubtedly many toned coins were kept in collections and did not hit the bourse floor. Even today, there are very few quality toned coins on the bourse floor, mainly distributed by a handful of dealers. And no, I am not ignoring the AT coins of today, but most can be spotted by the services or knowledgeable collectors.

Larry L.

Unknown · January 6, 2012 6:29AM

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roadrunner · January 6, 2012 10:03AM

From around 1975-1990 I received about every auction catalog that came out. I also attended dozens of NY and Boston auctions during that period, especially the bigger
name ones. There just wasn't much in nicely toned gem 19th century silver type (ie bust, barber, seated). I knew I wouldn't find those coins at the local shops so I was
searching nationally through the big auctions and retail price guides. The pickings were slim to say the least. The coins available back then don't quite look like the coins
I've been seeing for the past 5-10 yrs.

Unknown · January 6, 2012 10:28AM

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keets · January 6, 2012 10:52AM

if dorkkarl were still around he would remind us all of Ocham's Razor and suggest that the answer is one many of us just can't bear to accept.

Baley · January 6, 2012 11:04AM

Part of the problem is that some people seem to think that if they accept that Many of the Toners are fake, then All of them are Fake.

Believe it: many of the toners are fake. At least, many of Other People's toners are fake

keets · January 6, 2012 11:15AM

amen.

Where are all the beauties coming from?

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