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Interesting Occurance at the local BM a few minutes ago. Thread Closed...
ambro51
Posts: 14,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
...just got back from the local mall...Christmas shopping (very little gets reclusive me out of my nest)..Bought each daughter (grown, family)a ceramic knife, and the soninlaws each a cross pen. fountain for the banker, slim gold for the coast guard man.
OF COURSE, I had to stop in at the local BM. In the case, at the start of the run of large cents....we go back, and start the look see with a 1723 woods....etc etc and lo and BEhold...theres a Vermont
VERMONTIS Its the scarce RR4 variety...$500 (brain shifts into thinking whats in my wallet and paypal debit ~~good to go).. LET SEE IT thought I...
Young girl at register (not the coin guy). Chubby 20ish guy...maybe... OK, get his attention, ask to see a coin in the case..also, ask him if he has a loupe I could use, as I didnt have anything with me (not even reading glasses, and my stupid hastings triplet sitting on my dresser.
He gets out the coin. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
at the first glance it did not look right. More, sort of, in keeping with the surface on a rare high grade R5 I seen once, granular, yet porous, or maybe...I dunno. Not right. Cast? ?so the more I look at it, I look hard and close (10X) at the rims, edges, and yup, theres the seam. An electrotype. an old Electrotype. Not particularly well done either, but having made a lot of not too good ones NOW it clicked in and I told the young feller...
This is an Electrotype.
Showed him exactly what I was seeing, explained how they were made (he was Not the coin guy)..and yes he agreed with me that yes thats a seam all the way around the top edge.
OK. He asks me if I want him to show it to the Coin Guy. I told him, well, if it were real, Id be buying it right now, but...well...I told him, its an electrotype, Id be a buyer for maybe 75$ just 'cause its a rather funky piece and should be a part of a collection of Vermonts, just to show HOW they were copied and that a copy is collectable in its own right, if viewed as such...
Off he goes, coin in hand to the back of the shop..I really wasnt watching..
He comes back.... "He said its not an electrotype"
.............ahhhh OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooKay. says I. and outs da door Ize went.
Edited to remove any hint as to where or who this BM is. Others who have copied and quoted please do likewise. thank you.
OF COURSE, I had to stop in at the local BM. In the case, at the start of the run of large cents....we go back, and start the look see with a 1723 woods....etc etc and lo and BEhold...theres a Vermont
VERMONTIS Its the scarce RR4 variety...$500 (brain shifts into thinking whats in my wallet and paypal debit ~~good to go).. LET SEE IT thought I...
Young girl at register (not the coin guy). Chubby 20ish guy...maybe... OK, get his attention, ask to see a coin in the case..also, ask him if he has a loupe I could use, as I didnt have anything with me (not even reading glasses, and my stupid hastings triplet sitting on my dresser.
He gets out the coin. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
at the first glance it did not look right. More, sort of, in keeping with the surface on a rare high grade R5 I seen once, granular, yet porous, or maybe...I dunno. Not right. Cast? ?so the more I look at it, I look hard and close (10X) at the rims, edges, and yup, theres the seam. An electrotype. an old Electrotype. Not particularly well done either, but having made a lot of not too good ones NOW it clicked in and I told the young feller...
This is an Electrotype.
Showed him exactly what I was seeing, explained how they were made (he was Not the coin guy)..and yes he agreed with me that yes thats a seam all the way around the top edge.
OK. He asks me if I want him to show it to the Coin Guy. I told him, well, if it were real, Id be buying it right now, but...well...I told him, its an electrotype, Id be a buyer for maybe 75$ just 'cause its a rather funky piece and should be a part of a collection of Vermonts, just to show HOW they were copied and that a copy is collectable in its own right, if viewed as such...
Off he goes, coin in hand to the back of the shop..I really wasnt watching..
He comes back.... "He said its not an electrotype"
.............ahhhh OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooKay. says I. and outs da door Ize went.
Edited to remove any hint as to where or who this BM is. Others who have copied and quoted please do likewise. thank you.
0
Comments
<< <i>i'll stop in and tell them the same. >>
What's the point?
The shop owner obviously doesn't care and 100 folks that "walk-in" could tell him its an electrotype but he still won't admit it.
Some poor soul will probably buy it, submit it, get it genned, take it back only to be told, "thats not the coin I sold you!" "The coin I sold you wasn't an electrotype but this one is!"
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>i'll stop in and tell them the same. >>
What's the point?
The shop owner obviously doesn't care and 100 folks that "walk-in" could tell him its an electrotype but he still won't admit it.
Some poor soul will probably buy it, submit it, get it genned, take it back only to be told, "thats not the coin I sold you!" "The coin I sold you wasn't an electrotype but this one is!" >>
Yup---that dealer sounds like a crook. Thanks for the public service anouncement warning others about him.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>i'll stop in and tell them the same. >>
What's the point?
The shop owner obviously doesn't care and 100 folks that "walk-in" could tell him its an electrotype but he still won't admit it.
Some poor soul will probably buy it, submit it, get it genned, take it back only to be told, "thats not the coin I sold you!" "The coin I sold you wasn't an electrotype but this one is!" >>
I agree, mostly. But when the electrotype is submitted, it will come back as "Questionable Authenticity", and the shop owner will say "The grading service said 'Questionable Authenticity.' They just aren't smart enough to tell the difference. But I've been running this store for 100 years, much longer than they have been in business, and of course it's genuine!"
But as we all know, merely saying something does not make it true.
Or, someone will buy it and flip it onto eBay, "it came from my grandfather's collection, and I know nothing about coins. . . "
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
I think I would have told him my thoughts and left it at that. If I went back a day or so later and saw it for $75 then I might have bought it as a curious counterfeit.
If you had been talking to the dealer himself from the start it might of turned out different, things can get lost when there is a middle man. If after looking through the loupe and told the dealer what you saw and explained your theory and showed him the join he might have been downbeat but he may have said something like "oh well I can't sell it now" in which case you could have said "I don't normally buy counterfiet coins but I would be willing to offer $75 for it as a curiosity for my collection as it does have some age to it"
Chances are the young lad walked up to the dealer and said "that man over their said this coin is an electrotype and wants to buy it for $75".
<< <i>Jersey Shore is quite a wide range. Any more specific? >>
The hints given allowed me to identify the shop in question in about 8 seconds, 7 of which were taken up by typing in the seacrh terms in Google.
Though I guess there are 3 locations, but only one is actually "at the shore."
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
Or, someone will buy it and flip it onto eBay, "it came from my grandfather's collection, and I know nothing about coins. . . " >>
That's my favorite line on Ebay.
<< <i>
<< <i>Jersey Shore is quite a wide range. Any more specific? >>
The hints given allowed me to identify the shop in question in about 8 seconds, 7 of which were taken up by typing in the seacrh terms in Google.
Though I guess there are 3 locations, but only one is actually "at the shore." >>
Cough, Cough, Sterners!
<< <i>"chances are the young lad walked up to the dealer and said "that man over their said this coin is an electrotype and wants to buy it for $75". >>
Having known the proprietor since 1976 on an on and off again basis (he doesn't know me from Adam), I believe the above is probably what happened. I don't believe he would intentionally sell a counterfeit. Now, if the OP had personally spoken to the proprietor and the same thing was said, it would be a completely different story. I think that if the non-coin person at the register were relaying info, it could have been presented in a completely distorted manner. And, since we don't know what was said, let's put down the lynching rope for just a bit, since we don't have our facts. Sorry to spoil the fun.
Larry L.
<< <i>Or, someone will buy it and flip it onto eBay, "it came from my grandfather's collection, and I know nothing about coins. . . " >>
That's my favorite line on Ebay. >>
At least with eBay, there is recourse.
If I were to pay $500 or more for a raw coin that I thought might be suspect but did not know for sure, I'd invest an additional amount towards Express Grading fee's to get it cleared up.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>"chances are the young lad walked up to the dealer and said "that man over their said this coin is an electrotype and wants to buy it for $75". >>
Having known the proprietor since 1976 on an on and off again basis (he doesn't know me from Adam), I believe the above is probably what happened. I don't believe he would intentionally sell a counterfeit. Now, if the OP had personally spoken to the proprietor and the same thing was said, it would be a completely different story. I think that if the non-coin person at the register were relaying info, it could have been presented in a completely distorted manner. And, since we don't know what was said, let's put down the lynching rope for just a bit, since we don't have our facts. Sorry to spoil the fun.
Larry L.
This might very well be true but.....the proprietor should have taken just a wee bit of time and spoken with Ambro instead of simply dismissing the suggestion. If I were a coin dealer with a store front, I'd certainly want to know.
Regardless of what he paid for it, if it were a loss, it could be deducted.
The name is LEE!
I should state I do not know this dealer or have I to the best of my knowledge had any dealings with him but it would be unrealistic to think that any dealer might never unwittingly buy a a fake raw coin in their career. We are all human, that is what TGP's are for and even they get it wrong sometimes, micro O and Omega man anyone? but not all coins are worth getting slabbed and some colonial collectors prefer their coins raw.
This is why most dealers that sell coins (like myself) offer a lifetime guarantee on authenticity to protect their buyers. I also try to do as much research on a coin I buy as I can, especially if it is a type that is new to me. I will weigh and measure the coin, check the surfaces and edges and look at past auction or on line sales as well as checking for varieties but I am not unrealistic enough to say that I might never miss one in my future career.
Edited to add: I am only a part time dealer but a collector foremost. I only usually carry a small selection of coins and have time to check each one I buy. If you own a BM store and turnover a large quantity of coins you most likely don't have the time to check each one accurately.
but I guess I am going off on tangent here and the point isn't the fact that counterfeit coins get missed but how the situation was dealt with.. again more details are needed and misunderstanding is easily done.
If a dealer is knowingly selling a counterfiet as genuine, that's a different story..
Very true, perhaps his pride got in the way, maybe he paid $400 for it and is angry that he missed it. Perhaps after ambro left, he looked at the coin again and removed it from sale?
For the record I don't think ambro did anything wrong and if I was in the dealers shoes I would have went over listened to ambro, checked the coin, probably felt a little silly but thanked ambro for pointing it out, but life isn't always like that the shop might have been very busy at the time and the dealer might have been preoccupied.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>"chances are the young lad walked up to the dealer and said "that man over their said this coin is an electrotype and wants to buy it for $75". >>
Having known the proprietor since 1976 on an on and off again basis (he doesn't know me from Adam), I believe the above is probably what happened. I don't believe he would intentionally sell a counterfeit. Now, if the OP had personally spoken to the proprietor and the same thing was said, it would be a completely different story. I think that if the non-coin person at the register were relaying info, it could have been presented in a completely distorted manner. And, since we don't know what was said, let's put down the lynching rope for just a bit, since we don't have our facts. Sorry to spoil the fun.
Larry L.
This might very well be true but.....the proprietor should have taken just a wee bit of time and spoken with Ambro instead of simply dismissing the suggestion. If I were a coin dealer with a store front, I'd certainly want to know.
Regardless of what he paid for it, if it were a loss, it could be deducted. >>
But you are assuming that the clerk conveyed the message. How do we know he didn't go to the proprietor and say "A guy says he'll give you $75 for this", and never mentioned the question about authenticity? Let me ask you, how many times in just everyday life have you spoken to a seemingly mindless clerk who completely misunderstood or screwed up your question, or just didn't have a clue or couldn't care less? Probably quite a few. Without knowing what really happened, or what was really conveyed, we cannot even come to the conclusion that Ambro's assertion was "dismissed." At this point, it is "well, this is what we think happened." We have no facts to go by.
Have a great holiday everyone!
Larry L.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Okay, maybe the dealer is a crook, ignorant, or simply doesn't care. So now he's been outed. Warning delivered and noted by all serious numismatists.
Who will happily go to the store and buy outdated product and use it without care or comment. And accept incompetent medical diagnoses and die without knowing.
etc, etc, etc.
Yes, this is an expensive hobby. Expertise is expected from both buyer and seller. Or they have no business getting anything but proof sets.
The mantra that most dealers are crooks really SHOULD keep anyone from having anything to do with coin collecting.
But.... the vicarious thrill of exposing an unknown example of something inspected without proper equipment is just too juicy, isn't it?
Now.... as people flock to this den of iniquity to shame the dealer with clippings of this thread, I suppose the dealer won't be able to remember WHO it was who came in and I suppose further that when he ....DOES..... have a "rip" in the case, he'll fall over backward to make the OP one helluva deal on it.
Exposure is great, common sense not so much.
I'm glad I'm retired from the coin bizz.
-D
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
John
Edited to remove coin shop and owner name even though not exactly quoted by OP.
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
Larry L.
<< <i>How sad that we are so willing to damage someone's reputation and livelihood over incomplete information (what we believe a clerk was told, or had said). It is my sincerest hope that the mods take this thread down.
Larry L.
<< <i>But you are assuming that the clerk conveyed the message. How do we know he didn't go to the proprietor and say "A guy says he'll give you $75 for this", and never mentioned the question about authenticity? >>
the owners answer as relayed to me by the clerk was "He says its not an electrotype".
Im not an arguer. I hate to argue. I avoid arguing, as you folks have witnessed in nearly 10000 posts perhaps Im one of the least argumentative people out there.
I regret mentioning the 'hints' and if anyone feels so inclined, you are more than welcome to contact the owner, view the coin, send a letter etc etc...
in the end though, it seems my concern was NOT addressed and if the man cannot walk to the front of his store and talk to someone about the authenticity of a $500 coin, a cash in hand buyer...then somethings wrong. (period)
TRUTH
Eric
<< <i>
<< <i>But you are assuming that the clerk conveyed the message. How do we know he didn't go to the proprietor and say "A guy says he'll give you $75 for this", and never mentioned the question about authenticity? >>
the owners answer as relayed to me by the clerk was "He says its not an electrotype".
Im not an arguer. I hate to argue. I avoid arguing, as you folks have witnessed in nearly 10000 posts perhaps Im one of the least argumentative people out there.
I regret mentioning the 'hints' and if anyone feels so inclined, you are more than welcome to contact the owner, view the coin, send a letter etc etc...
in the end though, it seems my concern was NOT addressed and if the man cannot walk to the front of his store and talk to someone about the authenticity of a $500 coin, a cash in hand buyer...then somethings wrong. (period) >>
I guess the problem is "as relayed to me by the clerk," whom you initially referred to in your first post as a "non-coin guy." I do have one question about "the man [who] cannot walk to the front of the store:" Did you ask to speak with him, or did you feel completely comfortable in having this information conveyed by a "non-coin" person? There would be no question if you yourself brought this to the attention of the proprietor and had received the same response. In that case, it would be fine to bring out the lynching rope. The way it came down, however, would be akin to telling the appointment clerk at a specialist's office the particulars of a complex medical condition, and trusting her to convey that information and rely on her response. Nothing against you, but I think it could have been handled better with more facts before starting a post that ultimately led to posters making remarks about the man's credibility.
Larry L.
Proud recipient of Y.S. Award on 07/26/08.
Proud recipient of Y.S. Award on 07/26/08.
Anyway, a word to the wise that not everything is so it seems, regardless of what the dealer writes on the 2X2.
Thread Closed. Thank you for your participation.
Would you lay money that it was not real? If so, I don't think you were being unfair. You didn't go off or call them names. If they are selling a fake, as genuine, then where were you thinking you were unfair?
What if a less knowledgeable board member soon posted "I got a cool deal on a Vermont R4 from a dealer in NJ near the shore! Just a touch under $500!". What if you could have prevented that?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
<< <i>How sad that we are so willing to damage someone's reputation and livelihood over incomplete information (what we believe a clerk was told, or had said). It is my sincerest hope that the mods take this thread down.
Larry L.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>How sad that we are so willing to damage someone's reputation and livelihood over incomplete information (what we believe a clerk was told, or had said). It is my sincerest hope that the mods take this thread down.
Larry L.
I dont agree with the above.....I agree with Bochi.
Proud recipient of Y.S. Award on 07/26/08.
<< <i>How sad that we are so willing to damage someone's reputation and livelihood over incomplete information (what we believe a clerk was told, or had said). It is my sincerest hope that the mods take this thread down.
Larry L.
It doesn't really matter now, the damage is done.
<< <i>How sad that we are so willing to damage someone's reputation and livelihood over incomplete information (what we believe a clerk was told, or had said). It is my sincerest hope that the mods take this thread down.
Larry L.
Is it fundamentally any different than getting ebay auctions taken down? I mean surely judging from pics would fall under incomplete information territory would it not?