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Is it possible for coin doctoring to actually improve a coin?
MrEureka
Posts: 24,740 ✭✭✭✭✭
Is it possible for coin doctoring to actually improve a coin? Or will it just (hopefully) look better, but not be better? Or, for that matter, does doctoring always make the coin worse, even if it may look better?
Yes, I know your answer depends on how you define "doctoring". But for the purpose of this thread, you get to choose your own definitions.
Yes, I know your answer depends on how you define "doctoring". But for the purpose of this thread, you get to choose your own definitions.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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While that works in Art circles, it is not quite as compelling with coins.
I suspect it will be on a case by case basis and then it will depend on who is asked
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I suspect they were compelling until you gently redirected those advancing such an argument to various cases displaying such coins where the end result was... well... a train wreck.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Moving metal and chemically adding color are examples of what I call doctoring.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>Coins can be improved by removing ugly toning and by removing contaminants on the surface. I do not consider this doctoring, but there are some that might.
Moving metal and chemically adding color are examples of what I call doctoring. >>
Art is an odd comparison I think. If done correctly, true conservation and restoration is always slightly visible and removable. If done for the wrong reason with bad intent...
Warhol and Wyeth would age there is no such thing as "bad taste" but Vermeer might. Hard to listen to such talk from Rembrandt after you see what cheap paint he used incorrectly with all that smalt and Mg has darkened his later paintings so that backgrounds have been lost completely.
Best wishes,
Eric
Some more thought to gander.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Art is a very compelling comparision on several fronts-
One can like and appreciate a coin for the design and artistic merit and not the toning or its current state that is described by a grade- the grade is subject to standards and eye appeal. Others can appreciate the coin- not for the design, but for the state of its condition which may include vibrant color. This is taste- what collectors like and don't like.
Art is appreciated for its design, use of color and to a degree its condition as well. Art is appreciated for what it means and it may not mean the same thing to all collectors.
Art collectors will buy what they like- coin collectors should too. Don't buy a coin thinking that you can improve it- just buy the coin you want and find attractive- don't enhance a coin in anticipation of a windfall profit. Too many are doing it and it is clear that there is a problem... a significant problem that no one wants to address.
Conservation can preserve a coin which is different than improving a coin. Coin doctoring by my definition is the slippery slope of deception that has no place in collecting.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
My hypothesis: Over the past 50 years for every coin that is improved by doctoring, hundreds are ruined or harmed.
AB
I was just looking over the inventory of an early copper dealer today, and the cleaned Starred Reverse cent which was discussed here last year was listed. Looks like the cent was recolored and grimed up a little bit and has a much better appearance.
I think the "original" taco bell seated half(?) on these boards was cleaned to start with and looked much better after the retoning.
I would consider both of these to be acceptable examples of doctoring since the coin was already cleaned and could in no way be considered original.
Will - Forgive me if the answer is obvious, but would you consider it unethical to repair a coin if it will (in your opinion) improve the coin? (An example would be helpful, too!) And for the flip side, how about an example of a repair that wouldn't improve a coin, and your judgment on if that less helpful doctoring job would be unethical.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Coins can be improved by removing ugly toning and by removing contaminants on the surface. I do not consider this doctoring, but there are some that might.
Moving metal and chemically adding color are examples of what I call doctoring. >>
So, based on your logic, chemically adding color is doctoring, but chemically removing color (dipping) is not? A bit hypocritical, no? Doesn't matter if you're pro or against the practice of dipping or toning, at least paint it with the same brush. This double standard is quite amusing.
http://macrocoins.com
<< <i>So, based on your logic, chemically adding color is doctoring, but chemically removing color (dipping) is not? A bit hypocritical, no? Doesn't matter if you're pro or against the practice of dipping or toning, at least paint it with the same brush. This double standard is quite amusing. >>
Double standard? Hypocritical? No.
Doctoring attempts to add value through deception. Adding artificial toning to cover hairlines or contact marks, or to try to fool people into paying more for color is a deceiving way to try to enhance value.
Whether someone agrees with dipping or not, dipping doesn't cover anything up--it lays everything bare. When someone dips a coin, they hope it will look better, but there isn't deception involved.
It's perfectly logical to oppose artificial toning and to be okay with dipping in some cases.
<< <i>
<< <i>So, based on your logic, chemically adding color is doctoring, but chemically removing color (dipping) is not? A bit hypocritical, no? Doesn't matter if you're pro or against the practice of dipping or toning, at least paint it with the same brush. This double standard is quite amusing. >>
Double standard? Hypocritical? No.
Doctoring attempts to add value through deception. Adding artificial toning to cover hairlines or contact marks, or to try to fool people into paying more for color is a deceiving way to try to enhance value.
Whether someone agrees with dipping or not, dipping doesn't cover anything up--it lays everything bare. When someone dips a coin, they hope it will look better, but there isn't deception involved.
It's perfectly logical to oppose artificial toning and to be okay with dipping in some cases. >>
You're forgetting that dipping actually removes metal. You are knowingly chemically altering the surface because you are not happy with how the coin looks in its natural state. Both practices are destructive. Or do you disagree?
<< <i>It's perfectly logical to oppose artificial toning and to be okay with dipping in some cases. >>
Haha, there's that "in some cases" clause again that makes it ok.
The short answer for me is almost never, but even exceptions have exceptions.
<< <i>If a coin is in a state where it was messed up, or doctored in the first place, I think a well done, secondary doctoring can absolutely help a coin. >>
I absolutely agree with this statement, as long as the "doctor" discloses what was done to the coin to "help" the coin.
http://macrocoins.com
<< <i>Is it possible for coin doctoring to actually improve a coin? Or will it just (hopefully) look better, but not be better? Or, for that matter, does doctoring always make the coin worse, even if it may look better?
Yes, I know your answer depends on how you define "doctoring". But for the purpose of this thread, you get to choose your own definitions. >>
My answer is Absolutely YES! Whatever the TPG ATS did to the SS Republic salvaged shipwreck coins made them "better", IMHO! What do you think? You deal in gold coins, do you deal in any of the SS Republic Shipwreck coins? How do they compare pre-"conservations" vis-a-vis post'"conservation"?
Cheers!
Kirk
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<< <i>
<< <i>Is it possible for coin doctoring to actually improve a coin? Or will it just (hopefully) look better, but not be better? Or, for that matter, does doctoring always make the coin worse, even if it may look better?
Yes, I know your answer depends on how you define "doctoring". But for the purpose of this thread, you get to choose your own definitions. >>
My answer is Absolutely YES! Whatever the TPG ATS did to the SS Republic salvaged shipwreck coins made them "better", IMHO! What do you think? You deal in gold coins, do you deal in any of the SS Republic Shipwreck coins? How do they compare pre-"conservations" vis-a-vis post'"conservation"?
Cheers!
Kirk >>
The SS Republic coins are a great example of excellent conservation combined with disclosure. Everyone knows that an SS Republic coin is not original and had to be conserved due to the long stay at the bottom of the sea, and some of the conservation methods are documented. I personally don't believe they should ever be considered as "mint state" because they are not, and never will be again even with the best "medical care" money can buy.
http://macrocoins.com
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Is it possible for coin doctoring to actually improve a coin? Or will it just (hopefully) look better, but not be better? Or, for that matter, does doctoring always make the coin worse, even if it may look better?
Yes, I know your answer depends on how you define "doctoring". But for the purpose of this thread, you get to choose your own definitions. >>
My answer is Absolutely YES! Whatever the TPG ATS did to the SS Republic salvaged shipwreck coins made them "better", IMHO! What do you think? You deal in gold coins, do you deal in any of the SS Republic Shipwreck coins? How do they compare pre-"conservations" vis-a-vis post'"conservation"?
Cheers!
Kirk >>
The SS Republic coins are a great example of excellent conservation combined with disclosure. Everyone knows that an SS Republic coin is not original and had to be conserved due to the long stay at the bottom of the sea, and some of the conservation methods are documented. I personally don't believe they should ever be considered as "mint state" because they are not, and never will be again even with the best "medical care" money can buy. >>
I agree. But a SS pedigreed slab is probably worth more than an every-day Mint State cousin.
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<< <i>
I agree. But a SS pedigreed slab is probably worth more than an every-day Mint State cousin. >>
Sure, they are cool coins with an interesting and tragic history. But they are not Mint State.
http://macrocoins.com
<< <i>Can anything be done to clean coins that won't trigger a genuine slab only from PCGS? Forgive me for being new but is an acetone dip considered "cleaning"? >>
No.
Lance.
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There is no way of knowing the actual number of coins that have been doctored, but there are far more IMHO than most people realize.
Everyone seems to have their own opinion on what actually constitutes doctoring and what degree or kind of doctoring is acceptable to them. Dipping is generally considered to be acceptable in the industry, but I personally despise it when used on 19th century silver business strikes and proofs. However, some people like the blast white look of say a cameo proof seated half, and the TPG's will slab these without hesitation, and CAC will sticker them. Spot removal on copper when done right certainly improves the look of the coin, but some folks consider this doctoring.
Adding metal, whizzing, putty, are all generally recognized by just about everyone as unacceptable forms of doctoring.
The debate on this will probably never end at least in my lifetime.
<< <i>Yeah, but when I looked to purchase an SS Rebublic pedigreed slabbed coin, I suffered price-sticker shock! I don't know what the ballyhooed "Mint State" versions sell for in the market, but I do know I couldn't afford a pedigreed shipwreck conserved coin. Yeah, they're not "Mint State". I agree with you 100%, but it seems they are worth alot to certain collectors. Just sayin' >>
The MS63-66 SS Republic 1857-s $20's sure look mint state to me. In fact they look more mint state than nearly all of the MS $20's that have followed them, even most of the 1904's.
One could take a technical stance and call the vast majority of mint state Type 3 $20 Libs as glorified AU's. Nearly all display high point friction and scuffing. The 1857-s $20's are nearly
pristine in all respects. Yes, they underwent a bath to remove whatever crust was adhering to the coin. But they look amazing. The mint bloom on them is incredible. I consider
placing rubbed bust halves in MS64-65 holders a much more signficant issue or "market choice." I have lots of issues with coin doctoring and overgrading but the 57-s $20's is certainly
not one of them. I wish more slabbed "gem" 19th century type coins were as "mint" as the SS Republic coins.
roadrunner
I believe that you are referring to the SS Central America 1857-S $20's, and if this is so, I agree with you completely. I believe that this has been the high point of the recent coin shipwreck salvages, restorations, and marketing. I own an AU-58, and I would put it up against my 1904 in 64+ and challenge you to tell me which coin looks newer and more attractive. Most would choose the 1857-S, hands down.
There are some dogs in the SS Central America series, and many coins have had to be reconserved.
The Brother Johnson pieces are, in my mind, a half step behind, but most are very good.
I have owned an SS Republic piece (a Liberty eagle), and the surface had a little of that pebbly texture and an unnatural brightness, characteristics associated with seawater and conservation. I have not yet looked closely at any of the SS New York pieces.
<< <i>Coins can be improved by removing ugly toning and by removing contaminants on the surface. I do not consider this doctoring, but there are some that might. >>
"Coin nursing"
He who knows he has enough is rich.
I dunno, is it possible for a medical quack to actually improve a patients health? I guess it's possible, depending on how you define your subjective terms in the question.
Recognizing that the terms are loaded and VERY subject to interpretation, I'd answer yes, it's within the realm of possibility. Why?
I just think folks that answer an unqualified NO or yes to any question that is a matter of opinion may have limited capacity to grasp the subtle nuance of multifactorial variable analysis and the quantification of intangibles involved in the relative measurement of degree or extent to which phenomina occur on multi-dimentional spectra and matrices.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
It would seem to me that those may not have suffered much during their stay.