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Cleaned coin without Hairlines?
STONE
Posts: 15,275 ✭
Ok, so maybe this is just MY ignorance since I try to avoid buying/looking-at cleaned coins as much as possible,
and therefore I am probably out-of-touch with all the characteristics that cleaned coins can present.
My impression is that freshly cleaned coins will exhibit obvious hairlines; that's just the nature of the process
taken to clean a coin (i.e. a cleaning agent + towel + coin = parallel hairlines (not to be confused with die polish))
But after inspecting one recent NewP in my collection which has been designated as "cleaned" by a major TPG
I cannot find any hairlines, yet the coin itself is uniformly white. And while I have NO experience dipping coins,
my next logial conclusion was that this coin was more than likely dipped rather than cleaned. (although I have
also considered this coin to be a proof, which in that case would be unique as a proof, and thus far less likely)
(Sorry, no pics. Don't have my camera with me for about 3 more weeks)
So my questions are:
1) Does a cleaned coin need to have obvious hairlines?
2) Is dipping the same as cleaning?
3) Are dipped coins generally/occasionally mistaken/designated as "cleaned" coins by the major TPG's?
and therefore I am probably out-of-touch with all the characteristics that cleaned coins can present.
My impression is that freshly cleaned coins will exhibit obvious hairlines; that's just the nature of the process
taken to clean a coin (i.e. a cleaning agent + towel + coin = parallel hairlines (not to be confused with die polish))
But after inspecting one recent NewP in my collection which has been designated as "cleaned" by a major TPG
I cannot find any hairlines, yet the coin itself is uniformly white. And while I have NO experience dipping coins,
my next logial conclusion was that this coin was more than likely dipped rather than cleaned. (although I have
also considered this coin to be a proof, which in that case would be unique as a proof, and thus far less likely)
(Sorry, no pics. Don't have my camera with me for about 3 more weeks)
So my questions are:
1) Does a cleaned coin need to have obvious hairlines?
2) Is dipping the same as cleaning?
3) Are dipped coins generally/occasionally mistaken/designated as "cleaned" coins by the major TPG's?
0
Comments
<< <i>So my questions are:
1) Does a cleaned coin need to have obvious hairlines?
2) Is dipping the same as cleaning?
3) Are dipped coins generally/occasionally mistaken/designated as "cleaned" coins by the major TPG's? >>
1) No.
2) Yes.
3) Yes.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>
<< <i>So my questions are:
1) Does a cleaned coin need to have obvious hairlines?
2) Is dipping the same as cleaning?
3) Are dipped coins generally/occasionally mistaken/designated as "cleaned" coins by the major TPG's? >>
1) No.
2) Yes.
3) Yes. >>
Thanks astrorat, those were my assumptions as well.
So, from a purely academic curiousity, how can a cleaned coin not show hairlines?
Is it just that the hairlines have toned over? Or a special type of cloth was used?
2. yes
3. probably although very slim.
Dipping strips the topmost layer of the coin. Thus it strips the luster/cartwheel/toning etc. When you had
your cleaned coin returned what number did they give it? Was it a PF number or MS number? That's the
four or five digit number in the front of the string.
No hairlines are needed for dipped coins.
bob
<< <i>So my questions are:
1) Does a cleaned coin need to have obvious hairlines?
2) Is dipping the same as cleaning?
3) Are dipped coins generally/occasionally mistaken/designated as "cleaned" coins by the major TPG's? >>
1) Not necessarily
2) Heck no
3) I would say no because the dipping would either clear up the surfaces to show hairlines, remove enough natural surfaces to make the coin altered surface, or remove darkness from a circulated coin that would also be altered surface.
<< <i>1. no
2. yes
3. probably although very slim.
Dipping strips the topmost layer of the coin. Thus it strips the luster/cartwheel/toning etc. When you had
your cleaned coin returned what number did they give it? Was it a PF number or MS number? That's the
four or five digit number in the front of the string.
No hairlines are needed for dipped coins.
bob
It is labeled as MS, from what I can tell. AU-details improperly cleaned
I wouldn't be surprised if PCGS occasionally cites the wrong BB reason, or there's some overlap among them. I've had the same coin come back as 91, 92, and 94.
Lance.
<< <i>2) Is dipping the same as cleaning? >>
<< <i>2) Heck no >>
What do you call it?
If you remove anything/something from the surface of a coin it is cleaning no matter what method you use!
Are some methods safe and others harmful? - Yes, but it's still cleaning!
Sometimes it's not enough to get bagged or slabbed genuine.
A bath in acetone often greatly helps a coin without harm, but it is still cleaning.
It does not have to have hairlines to be slabbed "cleaned" - IMO.
The bottom line is whether the coin has been cleaned to the point of harm/damage and that is an opinion done at the time of grading.
My #1 Low Ball Peace Dollar Set
No
Yes
#2 Dipping and wiping can both destroy coins, Cleaning (or wiping) causes hairlines, dipping strips metal off the surface of the coin. If either is done to the extent that it is detectable, then the coin is bodybagged for cleaning. While the act is not necessarily the same process, they can both ruin a coin.
#3 They make mistakes, but I don't think it sounds like this is the case. I'm sure the coin has simply been striped of its former glory. They are touchy with AU coins, if it were an unhairlined coin that's been cleaned in the F-VF grade range, it would have probably certified...but an AU requires luster...and it was probably striped of that luster when it was dipped. I would put it in a manila envelope for a year and see how it retones. Hopefully it is somewhat restored and you can resubmit. Probably won't achieve above an XF (since it would still be devoid of luster) but it would loose the fake-white-look.
<< <i>Amazing... this must make the 4000th thread on cleaning/dipping etc.... maybe more... Cheers, RickO >>
But the intent was to understand whether or not hairlines are a standard on cleaned coins.....which they appear not to be!
<< <i>Amazing... this must make the 4000th thread on cleaning/dipping etc.... maybe more... Cheers, RickO >>
You might as well write up a definitive thread so we can stop flooding the forums with these threads
<< <i>Amazing... this must make the 4000th thread on cleaning/dipping etc.... maybe more... Cheers, RickO >>
Have you been counting?
1) Does a cleaned coin need to have obvious hairlines?
2) Is dipping the same as cleaning?
3) Are dipped coins generally/occasionally mistaken/designated as "cleaned" coins by the major TPG's? >>
1. no, sometimes they can be very deceptive depending on what was used to clean them, i've seen PLS nearly imperceptable at 9x - also one side cleaned and one side not, as well as some spots on obv/rev cleaned and not the whole side
2. not even close, dipping does not put scratches onto a surface whereas cleaning does - if people only dipped and not cleaned this hobby would be 100% different
3. it is not possible to mistake a cleaned coin from a dipped one since one scratches the surface and one does not, a vast majority of dipped coins fly through grading services easily
but it is possible to dip a cleaned coin
and
clean a dipped coin
but we can have one without the other
.
take this info to the bank
.
roadrunner