New scam (to me) using paypal update: was not paypal scam. Degraded to old fashioned wire scam.

notwilight · December 18, 2011 3:48AM

I'm selling an Ethan Allen dining room set on craigslist. Received the normal offer to buy at full price but I'm an officer in the military and would have my shipping company pick it up etc. There were some English grammar problems in the note that looked suspicious. However, the normal scam involves an escrow account or a wire transfer. In this case the buyer wanted to pay with paypal. We all know paypal if your best form of protection and I've had them stand behind me as a seller on chargebacks up to $10,000.

The key to this scam is his shipping company picking it up. Paypal rules require you ship to confirmed address. I replied that I accept his offer but will ship myself to his confirmed address and will split shipping costs with him. I suspect I'll never hear from him again. If I had accepted his offer a chargeback would have been filed and I would have a signed reciept from the shipping company when they picked it up but it would not have been signature confirmation to the confirmed address as paypal requires.

The lesson here for sellers is to never accept an offer to use the buyer's shipping service unless you know/trust the buyer. It is posted here because it applies to coins too.

---Jerry

comma · December 18, 2011 3:52AM

You won't hear back. I've gotten dozens of similar paypal scams through craigslist over the past year or so.
On another note, I wouldn't ship anything someone buys on craigslist if I were you. Sell locally, get a stack of bills

JamesMurray · December 18, 2011 3:57AM

Thanks NT , i wasn't aware of this trick. Not so long ago i sold a very rare WWll uniform complete with insignia etc ..there only ever was just short of 100 of these uniforms. The buyer did just as you say , had his own shipping company collect it , i had no idea i'd left myself open to any scam. Luckily my buyer was on the level and things went ok,i'd think twice now.

notwilight · December 18, 2011 4:46AM

oops wrong thread.

Ahrensdad · December 18, 2011 4:57AM

A co-workers dad got a very similar come-on when he was trying to sell a car on CR. I advised to not sell or they could expect a charge back which they would lose.

droopyd · December 18, 2011 6:17AM

For something like that, I would stick to a strict cash and carry policy.

UNCOnly · December 18, 2011 7:00AM

<< I'm selling an Ethan Allen dining room set on craigslist. Received the normal offer to buy at full price but I'm an officer in the military and would have my shipping company pick it up etc. There were some English grammar problems in the note that looked suspicious. However, the normal scam involves an escrow account or a wire transfer. In this case the buyer wanted to pay with paypal. We all know paypal if your best form of protection and I've had them stand behind me as a seller on chargebacks up to $10,000.

The key to this scam is his shipping company picking it up. Paypal rules require you ship to confirmed address. I replied that I accept his offer but will ship myself to his confirmed address and will split shipping costs with him. I suspect I'll never hear from him again. If I had accepted his offer a chargeback would have been filed and I would have a signed reciept from the shipping company when they picked it up but it would not have been signature confirmation to the confirmed address as paypal requires.

The lesson here for sellers is to never accept an offer to use the buyer's shipping service unless you know/trust the buyer. It is posted here because it applies to coins too.

---Jerry >>

I'll go you one better Jerry.

When selling on craigslist.com, never accept offers from people who are not local to you, and can come to pick up their item with cash in their hand. Never take checks, money orders, or plastic, and always meet the buyer in a public place, like a local shopping mall, etc.

And the most important rule to always follow:

Never, ever, deal with anyone under 18.

The law is on the minor's side and they take you into court for a full refund, they will get it as most states don't allow minors to enter into contracts. Tell them their parents must make the deal on their behalf.

habaraca · December 18, 2011 10:59AM

Similiar one here for a Wheel chair lift we are trying to sell...

Buyer said I had to wire $300 to a shipping company and they would give me a confirmation number
that I would then sent to Paypal, then paypal would release the full amount he had pre-transferred to my account.
$300 for the lift and $300 for the shipping...

Even got 2 e-mails that looked like the came from Paypal stating the same, that there was $600 waiting to be relaesed
to my account as soon as I sent them the Shipping confirmation number....

A way to see if these are real is the hit reply to sender,,,, The address on mine was paypalfunds @hotmail or @aol,com.
not Paypal.com......

Sneaky, trickie, Basta--ds

notwilight · December 18, 2011 11:17AM

Just got a very similar one on the 400 bottle cooled wine cabinet I have on craigslist. Common theme is their "agent" will pick it up.

Be careful out there.

--Jerry

notwilight · December 18, 2011 11:01PM

Not as sophisticated as I thought it was. He seems to have ignored my emails to him suggesting that I set up shipping. Got a note with a long complicated explanation why he was having problems with his shipper and the language was sounding more like the Nigerian banker all the time. Finally this morning I got a fake paypal email saying that I'd received a payment for the cost of the furniture plus $900 and I needed to wire $800 to his shipper for them to come pick up the furniture. Remember in the OP I thought it was weird to be using paypal instead of a wire transfer? Well, in the end it is just a wire transfer scam. Of course there is no transfer in my paypal account.

Wire transfers are used extensively in the coin business for large amounts of money but be very suspicious of wire transfer requests that are for something you didn't initiate. If you're buying a $20,000 coin from a coin dealer, wire transfers are a good way to pay. If you're asked to make a small wire transfer as part of a complicate scheme, it is likely a scam. --Jerry

packers88 · December 19, 2011 12:13AM

Another paypal story, yes paypal will have fun dipping into your bank account all day. They claim protection, but in reality their protection is having access to sellers' checking accounts. They side with the sellers the majority of the time and I've heard enough paypal horror stories to stay clear of them.

notwilight · December 19, 2011 9:52PM

packers88, I think you meant to say that they side with buyers all the time but that isn't true either. It is clear you've read to much internet folklore.

Update after a couple of days: I've received a series of emails from the "buyer" who goes by Steven Merlin and lots of fake emails from Paypal including one from the agent "representing out client Steven Merlin" and one from the "Paypal Team", complete with current paypal graphics, saying that they are waiting to receive the MTCN number of the wire I am sending before they release the funds.

Lots of errors that are obvious to an experienced paypal user but wouldn't be obvious to a new user. I think they are hoping to find people who have never used paypal before--the original email gave information on how to open a paypal account. For example: funds on hold show up in your paypal account as on hold. All of the email communication is coming to my paypal address and my craigslist email account. Paypal would only use the one.

After the first email that was carefully crafted to address me, my furniture and the details of my listing, the followup letters have gotten sloppy, addressing me as "seller" or "customer".

This morning I sent him a note that I was having trouble finding a Western Union office but working on it. I figure I just as well waste as much of his time as I can. Doesn't take much to entertain me I guess. --Jerry

notwilight · December 19, 2011 10:47PM

Latest email, supposedly from paypal, subject: "Safety Measures to Protect Both Buyer and Seller". Has some pretty funny chit in here if you're bored and have time to read it. Otherwise, carry on:

Dear Cet48@earthlink.net,

We have received an order from one of our customers (Steven Merlin) to make an instant payment of $4,195 .00USD to your PayPal account. The payment has been made successfully and the money has not been credited into your account. We are waiting for you to send the $800.00USD to the shipper Information Benjamin Chamberlin through Western Union information before we can credit your account and this is due to the large increase in the rate of the online scams recorded last year (2010). We have changed some of our rules and policy to make sure our clients (Seller and Buyer) are safe from scam, PayPal in conjunction with The FBI INVESTIGATION OFFICER has invented certain preventive measure to ensure the safety of both our seller's and buyer's in any transaction made through PayPal.

1. Once a payment is made, a confirmation Email will be sent to the seller that the payment has been made to state the transaction details which has been sent to you. Also a confirmation is sent to the buyer that the money has been deducted from his or her account. So once you get this mail, you should send the money to the shipper immediately to the address that was given to you by PayPal and send the Western Union information to Us. Once the Western Union information gets to us, the seller's account will be credited instantly. But unknown condition will the Western Union information be given to the buyer unless the seller's account is credited and likewise will seller's account be credited until we get the Western Union information.

2. Once a payment is made and it has been approved by PayPal, such transaction is Sealed (because both seller and buyer must have come to a conclusion before payment is made by the buyer) so therefore neither the buyer or seller can cancel this transaction or ask for the returned to the buyer's account. Also, this is where we generate our income, because the more transaction made through PayPal, the more we generate our Income.

3. Failure to abide by these laid down safety measures by PayPal may leads to suspension from PayPal and further more invitation to an interrogation with the F.B.I
So can you see we are very considerate about the safety of both buyer and seller.
**PLEASE NOTE**
This PayPal® payment has been deducted from the buyer's account and has been "APPROVED"but will not be credited to your account until you send Western Union information to us or email us through this mail verifieddepartmentservice@ultimateemail.com and our customer service care will attend to you. As soon as you send us the Western Union information to us for security purposes and the safety of the buyer and the seller, the money will be credited to your account. Also our client has made a report he/she will not respond to your stimulation .

Wingsrule · December 19, 2011 10:55PM

Also, this is where we generate our income,

fishcooker · December 20, 2011 12:12AM

will not respond to your stimulation .

Egads!

CoinRaritiesOnline · December 20, 2011 1:42AM

Man -- all you wanted to do is sell your dining room set.

Now -- it looks like you are going to be interrogated by the FBI!

Sounds like you should have just burned or buried that furniture in your back yard instead.

WillieBoyd2 · December 20, 2011 1:45AM

He's an army officer stationed in...
Nigeria

notwilight · December 20, 2011 1:50AM

I sent a note to the ISP for the email address provided and it came back undeliverable referencing a prodigy email address.

I think I'll wait a day and tell him that I tried to send the wire, the western union guy had me wait in a room and the FBI showed up and interviewed me and took my computer so I'm writing from the library and they told me not to send you the money yet.

--Jerry

OPA · December 20, 2011 2:01AM

<< packers88, I think you meant to say that they side with buyers all the time but that isn't true either. It is clear you've read to much internet folklore. >>

but, but, If it's on the internet...it's got to be true!!!!

Coinosaurus · December 20, 2011 2:02AM

Is it possible to terminate your paypal account just before the chargeback occurs?

Or do the bad guys have some way of submitting the funds and doing the chargeback simultaneously?

notwilight · December 20, 2011 2:24AM

<< Is it possible to terminate your paypal account just before the chargeback occurs? Or do the bad guys have some way of submitting the funds and doing the chargeback simultaneously? >>

I know this is long and confusing: No paypal payment was ever sent. I got a bunch of fake emails from fake paypal saying they would release the funds (non existent funds) once I wire $800 to the shipper. The "buyer" addded $900 of non-existent funds to the non-existent payment that will be released by the fake paypal once I send the wire. The problem is they want me to send a real wire rather than a fake one. :-) no communication has ever gotten even close to the real company www.paypal.com. My paypal account is not involved whatsoever.

but the answer to your question would be: 2 wrongs don't make a right. paypal would block you forever and come after you with collection companies. If you follow paypal rules, they cover all chargebacks. If you don't, you've been scammed and hanging it on them is dishonest.

--Jerry

johnjinx · December 20, 2011 3:08AM

I actually had the someone try the same scam on me on some coins I had up on a website. The person said he would pay by PayPal and have a shipping company or agent pick it up for him since he was away somewhere. The guy kept saying how he was an honest person in his e-mail too. I obviously didn't do the deal since I don't think it would be wise to send anything that isn't to a confirmed PayPal address. I'm guessing these crooks are scanning throughout the internet looking for items valuable enough to rip off. I hope no one here falls for it.

Coins101 · December 20, 2011 3:54AM

Looks like they are learning. Maybe because I educated one guy who wanted to buy some of my furniture I had listed on Craigs list. I strung this guy on for around three weeks. He paid by "Cashier's Check" but I had him send it to a fake name and my local police station address. The funny part is he shipped it by FedEx Overnight. After the check was received - twice as much as I was asking, he wanter me to Western Union a portion to his shipping company so they could pick up the furniture. I had lots of fun with him making up all kinds of stories like Western Union needed his address and phone number (which I googled and found they didn't exist, etc) Later found a couple websites of people who do just what I did, stick it to them.

Anyway I tired of playing with him and told him he sent the check to the police and they were looking for him. Never heard from him again.

At least he had to pay for the FedEx shipment.

renomedphys · December 20, 2011 4:52AM

Too funny! This is a variation on an old scam. Back in 1999, I sold a dirtbike. First I tried regular Auto Trader. That was the worst. One guy actually sent me a fake cashier's check from Nigeria via Fedex for 500% of the asking price. Then, I was to deposit the check and wire him the difference. HA! Interesting that the fake check was drawn on some "hometown" bank in Massachusetts, and was actually good enough to fool my cashiers at Wells Fargo, even though the security features were virtually indistinguishable. I simply had my bank place an extended hold on the check due to its dubious nature. Of course it bounced, but in the 11 day meantime, I kept getting emails and phone calls from the scammer demanding that I follow through on my end. I simply told him that the bank had a hold on the check, and as soon as it cleared, I would follow through. This of course agitated the scammer, whose threats became creative until finally the check was returned. And I did as the above poster did, simply handed the whole package, paper trail, envelope and bounced check over to the police, and played dumb with the seller acting like "I'm sure this whole thing will be cleared up when the police track down whomever is writing bad checks." That seemed to shut him up, as I never heard from him again. Too bad! I was having so much fun.

yellowkid · December 20, 2011 5:31AM

Actually an old scam but glad you are on to it!

Lakesammman · December 20, 2011 11:48AM

Wow - at least it's benign and obvious.

I was talking with one of my techs yesterday. She had a friend killed after responding to a Craigs list ad for a babysitter.

notwilight · December 26, 2011 10:10PM

<< Actually an old scam but glad you are on to it! >>

The wire scam is indeed old. It started out like it was going to be a scam using paypal which I haven't seen before.

So here is an update:

After several days of ignoring his requests that got more and more impatient I sent the following:

"I went to the western union and tried to send the wire. The attendant asked me to sit in a room where I waited and waited. Finally I said I was going to leave and he said I couldn’t the FBI was coming to see me. Finally after 2 hours 2 guys in black suits showed up and asked me a bunch of questions. They came home with me and took my computers and kept them overnight. When I got them back all of your emails were gone. They said I shouldn’t pay you until I hear from them. --Jerry"

We'll see if that quiets him down.

--Jerry

Edit for further update: Didn't slow him down a bit. He has sent me 2 more emails within an hour after my email after this saying that I have to pay and get him the receipt NOW!!!. Either he isn't afraid of the FBI or doesn't really speak good enough English to understand what I've told him. He seems to be sending me a lot of pregenerated form letters. Am I dealing with a bot? Anyway, I'm done.

notwilight · December 26, 2011 10:18PM

<< Wow - at least it's benign and obvious.

I was talking with one of my techs yesterday. She had a friend killed after responding to a Craigs list ad for a babysitter. >>

Wow. Bummer. Craigslist is getting so much bad news/bad press/bad karma that I wonder how many legitimate buyers are on there? I haven't had any luck selling my dining room set. I did sell an old SUV after 4 weeks. That was kindo fun. Just before Christmas a guy called about it. Long story short, he was an out of work 45 yr old carpenter, trying to get back on his feet, he was living with his mother and traveling on a bicycle. My SUV bluebook is $4500 but no interest at $3500 or even $3000 because it has a big V8. He had $3000 insurance settlement to get a vehicle and get his tools out of hock and hopefully get to Denver where his ex wife moved with his kids. I had dealers offering me $2k for it to put on their lot. I sold it to him for $1850 to help a single dad get back on his feet and see his kids.

--Jerry

TwoSides2aCoin · December 26, 2011 11:13PM

I like to think he needs the $800 for all the trouble you've put him through.

littlebear · December 27, 2011 1:56AM

<< 

<< Wow - at least it's benign and obvious.

I was talking with one of my techs yesterday. She had a friend killed after responding to a Craigs list ad for a babysitter. >>

Wow. Bummer. Craigslist is getting so much bad news/bad press/bad karma that I wonder how many legitimate buyers are on there? I haven't had any luck selling my dining room set. I did sell an old SUV after 4 weeks. That was kindo fun. Just before Christmas a guy called about it. Long story short, he was an out of work 45 yr old carpenter, trying to get back on his feet, he was living with his mother and traveling on a bicycle. My SUV bluebook is $4500 but no interest at $3500 or even $3000 because it has a big V8. He had $3000 insurance settlement to get a vehicle and get his tools out of hock and hopefully get to Denver where his ex wife moved with his kids. I had dealers offering me $2k for it to put on their lot. I sold it to him for $1850 to help a single dad get back on his feet and see his kids.

--Jerry >>

That was very nice of you. May the good that you did in helping someone be returned to you many times over.

Larry L.

New scam (to me) using paypal update: was not paypal scam. Degraded to old fashioned wire scam.

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