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What steps should ebay take?
lkeigwin
Posts: 16,895 ✭✭✭✭✭
Counterfeit coins, fake slabs, buyer-bias in disputes. Bad pix, listing violations (like keyword spamming), no neg feedback for buyers.
These are all aggravating. If you could take your issues right to the top at ebay, what practical suggestions would you make to fix or at least improve the situation?
Let's avoid bashing, if possible, and instead focus on reasonable steps ebay might take. Be practical. There's no way ebay can hire thousands of experts to watch every auction for every collectible subject to fakes.
Lance.
These are all aggravating. If you could take your issues right to the top at ebay, what practical suggestions would you make to fix or at least improve the situation?
Let's avoid bashing, if possible, and instead focus on reasonable steps ebay might take. Be practical. There's no way ebay can hire thousands of experts to watch every auction for every collectible subject to fakes.
Lance.
Coin Photography Services / Everyman Registry set / BHNC #213
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so it's really up to the ebay user base that is tired of all that you mention to so something about it.
Specific numismatic background qualifications for a few fraud techs wouldn't hurt. Ebay's best bet is to tap on the numismatic community with designated voluntary advisors given a direct, expedited line of communication to ebay fraud dept.
The "report an item" is a good tool and it is available to all ebay users. Unfortunately those at the receiving end (ebay) are slow to react and in many cases not qualified to make the final decision to pull the plug. The coin collection community is a good resource, but ebay has got to provide a quicker and more qualified response.
For those not aware, there is a specific, simple report form for the coin and currency category and I assume it goes to someone at ebay with some basic coin and/or currency experience. The form only requires an item number (up to 10) and a description of the violation.
Ebay Coin and Currency report form, save it to your browser favorites
"A car is a tool that takes you from one place to another. Everything beyond that is a payment for other people's perception of you."
Why should ebay police buyers and sellers? Seriously. Ebay was a much better place when it was just a selling venue.
<< <i>Go back to the free wheeling days of the late 90's.
Why should ebay police buyers and sellers? Seriously. Ebay was a much better place when it was just a selling venue. >>
Before they developed buyer and seller protections? I beg to differ. IMHO ebay has and is evolving into a better marketplace. Still a ways to go but much safer than it has ever been. There is a direct relationship between their success and the evolvement of their "protections." It is what separates them from most all other on-line auction sites.
"A car is a tool that takes you from one place to another. Everything beyond that is a payment for other people's perception of you."
just my opinion, they have probably done most of what they can given the HUGE arena of products listed through their site and have instead focused on the buyer protection policy
there is a large list of pros and cons for ebay for buying/selling but overall is meant for everyone to succeed long-term
if buyers are careful and take time to look over the sellers info a lot of grief can be avoided and for those few problems that arise
requesting specific shipping methods, perhaps paying a couple extra dollars
communicate with the sellers, a lot can be gained by just seeing how someone responds
after over 1000 buying/selling transactions through various ids all at 100%, taking the time and effort to do a better and better job results in an extremely nice experience
i've worked with business owners, ceos, doctors, lawyers, brick layers, factory workers etc etc and the number one factor was communication and me providing, safe, expedited shipping with accurate product description
with a no questions asked return policy, they don't bother me as they are few and far between since i do an above average job of presenting my products
i know this is a what can ebay do thread but i am reminded of Obama's inaugural speech which for me was amazingly inspiring, and one of my favorite points of his is that he and his staff can only do so much
and it is up to us to help out and do what we can and stop expecting others to solve all our problems, be proactive, be educated and step up and this thread topic should follow that mantra (watch the various cspan
channels and all the american citizens that step up to the committees and present their opinions and solutions knowing they can make a difference just for trying, very inspiring)
ebay can only do so much even if they put 100million into our issues, there is a point when it is up to us to be patient, informed consumers that let positivity and creative solutions do the work for us
.
I know of a story about someone who got busted doctoring PCGS coins that were still in their slabs.
Giving them a little extra color.
That same doctor has posted coins for sale on this very website.
Toned coins.
Where are the practical protections?
How about banning this individual from ever posting on this site again?
I would have banned him for life when he got caught.
It's all good as long as it is done in the name pf PROFIT™.
hi, i'm tom.
i do not doctor coins like some who post in here.
<< <i>The grading companies must take the lead in fighting counterfeit slabs, it's their product at stake. >>
Yea, verily. They need to participate in the eBay VERO program the same way that designer goods companies do.
Russ, NCNE
To solve it they need to use law enforcement and better laws. If there was harsh punishment for these types of fraud and they nailed a few crooks the others would think twice before doing it. For example do a credit card fraud or sell a fake coin for a few thousand bucks and the biggest risk is that somehow the money gets held. Compare that punishment with someone that steals a few thousand from a bank.
Even that won't 100% cure it, people still rob banks but it would reduce it a lot.
<< <i>
<< <i>The grading companies must take the lead in fighting counterfeit slabs, it's their product at stake. >>
Yea, verily. They need to participate in the eBay VERO program the same way that designer goods companies do.
Russ, NCNE >>
eBay's VeRO is about protecting intellectual property (patents, trademarks, e.g.) but is mostly used by companies to report sellers auctioning fake goods with their brand names (Coach handbags, let's say).
If PCGS wants the authority to get auctions for coins in fake PCGS slabs taken down quickly, it would be granted by eBay in a heartbeat. Through VeRO or the Community Watch program. Whatever.
It would be no small job. I don't know how many PCGS coin auctions are begun each week but I'm sure it's many, many thousands. Then again, just because it is a lot of work doesn't mean it isn't worth it. Counterfeit slabbing could be ruinous.
I'd love to hear DW's thoughts on this.
Lance.
For the most part, they seem to be pretty fair and unbiased in settling disputes between sellers and buyers.
I've never had the feeling they were favoring one party over another.
Although, one thing they could change, or eliminate from their auctions and BINs, and that's the seller's option of not taking returns. It seems rather redundant they have that option when we all know eBay will not honor the seller's choice to not accept returns.
<< <i>I think they should produce a more seller friendly approach to most of the issues you described. It seems everything is designed solely for the buyer, it's not until you've been on the other side of the aisle that you realize how badly they need to re-vamp some things. >>
You should have seen it when they first started out.
It was a nuthouse compared to what it is now.
Eric
<< <i>Although, one thing they could change, or eliminate from their auctions and BINs, and that's the seller's option of not taking returns. It seems rather redundant they have that option when we all know eBay will not honor the seller's choice to not accept returns. >>
This is not really true, though we read about it a lot here. Last year I lost a SNAD dispute, as a buyer, to a seller with a no refunds policy. The coin had corrosion not revealed in the auction or detectable from the photos.
Still, I agree with you that "no returns" should not be allowed except for special circumstances like bullion. Sometimes there are valid reasons for not accepting returns.
Lance.
<< <i>Although, one thing they could change, or eliminate from their auctions and BINs, and that's the seller's option of not taking returns. >>
You don't need eBay's help with that- you can just refuse to bid in auctions that state "No Returns". Problem solved. You're welcome.
<< <i>
<< <i>The grading companies must take the lead in fighting counterfeit slabs, it's their product at stake. >>
Yea, verily. They need to participate in the eBay VERO program the same way that designer goods companies do.
Russ, NCNE >>
I placed a large Tiffany box on eBay ( just an empty and authentic Tiffany cardboard box maybe 3 foot tall )
and eBay pulled the auction in a flash.
Must have been an interesting item in that box at one time.
Lance.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
<< <i>Hire 2 or 3 highly qualified experienced numismatists to screen all listings before they go live... >>
Looking at just auctions, there are currently around 150,000 listings on eBay. Assuming 7 day autions, that amount would basically need to be approved every week. Allowing 30 seconds per listing for review would require 4,500,000 seconds, which is 75,000 hours. At 40 hours/week and not allowing for breaks, that would require 1,875 reviewers.
And this doesn't begin to address fixed price listings. Or paper money listings. Or a bunch of other numismatically related stuff.
Just sayin...
<< <i>Go back to the free wheeling days of the late 90's. Why should ebay police buyers and sellers? Seriously. Ebay was a much better place when it was just a selling venue. >>
Congratulations...You just won the Golden Raspberry Award with that above statement.
<< <i>
<< <i>Hire 2 or 3 highly qualified experienced numismatists to screen all listings before they go live... >>
Looking at just auctions, there are currently around 150,000 listings on eBay. Assuming 7 day autions, that amount would basically need to be approved every week. Allowing 30 seconds per listing for review would require 4,500,000 seconds, which is 75,000 hours. At 40 hours/week and not allowing for breaks, that would require 1,875 reviewers.
And this doesn't begin to address fixed price listings. Or paper money listings. Or a bunch of other numismatically related stuff.
Just sayin...
This was the first thing that I thought. Too much work for too few people. But then I got to thinking about it ...
I love these sorts of problems!
Obviously ebay can't throw 1,875 reviewers on the coin section. Especially semi skilled ones.
What they can do, though, is leverage the data they do have to know what items are going to sell for some arbitrary amount that they decide they don't care about. Lets call it 50 bucks. If it's a circulated 1959 nickel they know those either don't sell or sell for 50 cents. They gone from what needs to be checked. Or at least given a VERY low score.
Coins that they know sell for high dollar amounts are scored higher.
Coins that they know (from disputes) that are often SNAD'd are given an even higher score.
Coins that they know are often delisted via counterfeit reports ... add a few more points.
Coins that are being sold by sellers in china (shhhhh, this one has to be secret) might get a modest bump.
Coins sold from accounts with some long period of inactivity are bumped up. Perhaps scaled by this length of inactivity.
Coins sold from accounts with some long period of inactivity from a seller in china (ip address) that seems to used to have lived in the US (or really, any country to country bump) could be scored higher.
Accounts that constantly sell items in the same category without trouble could have a few points deducted from the score. Maybe more than a few.
And at the end of all of that scoring each staff numismatist has a queue to work and is given insight into how the score was derived so they might know what to look for.
Or perhaps there is some great way to make a learning algorithm that just does statistical analysis on all of the above (much like a good portion of spam is filtered today) where it leans what combinations of data give an item a high probability of being sold by a scam artist.
<< <i>I really think that the feedback system need to have the playing field leveled.
They tried that and it didn't work , too many sellers leaving retaliation feedback perhaps or whatever reason it was changed. I was one of the sellers just as annoyed as anyone else about it at first , now i don't really give it any thought. Ive always left feedback the same day as payment is made so it doesnt affect what feedback i would leave. If i were to be negged i'd imagine there would be a reason so i think it's sharpened up a lot of sellers ideas which as a buyer ive come to appreciate. Given the choice as both seller and buyer i'd now vote to leave it as is , the bad buyers are so few and far between as to not really concern oneself i think , sure as a group we hear stories often enough but thats as a large group.
<< <i>I really think that the feedback system need to have the playing field leveled.
Buyers choose who they buy from - Seller feedback is necessary and important, it helps keep sellers in line who want to stick around.
Sellers, in most cases, are not able to choose who they sell to - Buyer feedback is meaningless and should be eliminated.
"A car is a tool that takes you from one place to another. Everything beyond that is a payment for other people's perception of you."
<< <i>The only thing eBay cares about is there revenues and nothing else. >>
Which means they have to care about things that ensure they continue to grow - same concerns an ebay seller has to face.
"A car is a tool that takes you from one place to another. Everything beyond that is a payment for other people's perception of you."
<< <i>Why? Were you given a reason?
Must have been an interesting item in that box at one time. >>
From ebay...
MC999 eBay Listing Removed: Prohibited Accessories
The listing was removed because it violated eBay policy.
Please be advised that we prohibit the listing of trademarked items or accessories that are not sold separately by the manufacturer.For a safer buying and selling experience on eBay, we do not allow listings for certain products that may be used to facilitate the sale of counterfeit items or enable fraud.
We understand that it was not your intention not to comply with the guidelines so I advise you not to relist the item.
If the manufacturer doesn't offer the accessories or other extras as a separate purchase, those items can't be listed on eBay without the accompanying branded product.
For a safer buying and selling experience on eBay, we don't allow listings for certain products that may be used to help the sale of counterfeit items or make fraud possible.
<< <i>
<< <i>Hire 2 or 3 highly qualified experienced numismatists to screen all listings before they go live... >>
Looking at just auctions, there are currently around 150,000 listings on eBay. Assuming 7 day autions, that amount would basically need to be approved every week. Allowing 30 seconds per listing for review would require 4,500,000 seconds, which is 75,000 hours. At 40 hours/week and not allowing for breaks, that would require 1,875 reviewers.
And this doesn't begin to address fixed price listings. Or paper money listings. Or a bunch of other numismatically related stuff.
Just sayin...
One of the three person team could be constantly evaluating those accounts at higher risk and only those accounts would be scrutinized by a human unless another account is reported to their specific department directly, also there are many other was using modern technology and ebay's resources to make it happen with three highly qualified screeners and automation. Just sayin.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
<< <i>Hire 2 or 3 highly qualified experienced numismatists to screen all listings before they go live and to offer guidance when needed in disputes or changes to platform. Despite the number of coin buyers and sellers the eBay brass really knows very little about he coin business and hobby. This was VERY evident when I had a conference call I had recently with paypal and ebay that was at their request. The meeting was supposed tobe to review my account but all they did was ask non stop questions about the business in general and the problems they run into. They need guidance badly. Now whether Mr. Donahoe will see our business as important enough to hire a few experts? I dunno....
John >>
I've discussed hiring an expert with ebay and it ain't gonna happen. Other than the vero program mentioned above, I don't see ebay making any changes. Ebay business model doesn't include becoming expert in anything. they count on buyers to be the experts and report problems. That said they do aggressively pursue the problems. They are very aware of how much fakes, counterfeits, scams, or even just bad sellers of real items hurts their business. They will pull any auction in a flash if they think there is something wrong with it. Those who think they leave bad sellers operating to raise revenues couldn't be further from the truth. I've had them end hundreds of thousands of $ of my auctions in an afternoon when they got confused about a policy.
That said, they are very limited by lack of expertise. They don't want to become experts in coins any more than they want to become experts in lawnmowers, welders, ancient artifacts, or watches. But they now know that some of the reports are bogus so when you report an item you have to make it clear to a layman that you know what you're talking about. It helps if you can say your opinion that the coin is a fake is an expert opinion based on your 34 years in numismatics and that you know that series of coins as an expert. It also helps if you have had other experts look at the auction and they agree. Or if you can give them clear evidence like a heritage auction where the coin is clearly different. But you may have to help them see the difference. To them the fake may look just like the coin in the heritage auction. Point out that the date is different in the fake or other clear details. They will just glance at the overall or look at the label and conclude they are the same, not different. You have to expain it all in detail that a layman can understand. Don't expect them to see differences that are obvious to you. If you take the 20 or 30 minutes to do this, they will promptly pull the counterfeits.
But that is their business plan and they are not likely to change.
--jerry
PS You only get one chance to present your case. they don't get back to you and tell y ou what they decided and why or ask questions. You need to put all the information in your original report. You can't make followup reports.
<< <i>One thing ebay/paypal should do is make sure that the scammers who get caught get better publicity. The PR department should be sending out press releases on every culprit they nail. They catch many more than the public is aware of and sharing it with the public would attract customers that are scared to deal on ebay.
<< <i>The only thing eBay cares about is there revenues and nothing else. >>
Which means they have to care about things that ensure they continue to grow - same concerns an ebay seller has to face. >>
I agree revenue is ebay's main concern. I outed a large volumne seller that was blatently shill bidding. I had so many examples it was not even funny. I spent around a month trying to get ebay to do something....yet they would not. I even had an example where the guy sold the same coin 3 times! The 1st time his shill bidder won it for around $160,the 2nd time his same shill bidder bid $200 and lost,3rd time the shill bidder was the under bidder and the coin sold for $71! The shill bidder's history always showed several hundred bids with 99% of his activity with said seller.
Why wouldn't ebay stop him? Because the seller was paying the ebay fees!
That will take care of 90% of all counterfeit products, not just coins.
Of course it will never happen because there's money to be made and no regulatory agency to stop it.
Ebay is very aware of how much fakes, counterfeits, scams, or even just bad sellers of real items hurts their business. They will pull any auction in a flash if they think there is something wrong with it. Those who think they leave bad sellers operating to raise revenues couldn't be further from the truth. I've had them end hundreds of thousands of $ of my auctions in an afternoon when they got confused about a policy.
--Jerry
Ever notice how Amazon doesn't have these issues?
<< <i>There is nothing they need to or want to do until it appears that they are losing money, or that they can make more money by making a change.
so it's really up to the ebay user base that is tired of all that you mention to so something about it. >>
Yes. Until eBay's bottom line is affected, they will not take action.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>What they can do, though, is leverage the data they do have to know what items are going to sell for some arbitrary amount that they decide they don't care about. Lets call it 50 bucks. If it's a circulated 1959 nickel they know those either don't sell or sell for 50 cents. They gone from what needs to be checked. Or at least given a VERY low score.
Coins that they know sell for high dollar amounts are scored higher.
Coins that they know (from disputes) that are often SNAD'd are given an even higher score.
Coins that they know are often delisted via counterfeit reports ... add a few more points.
Coins that are being sold by sellers in china (shhhhh, this one has to be secret) might get a modest bump.
Coins sold from accounts with some long period of inactivity are bumped up. Perhaps scaled by this length of inactivity.
Coins sold from accounts with some long period of inactivity from a seller in china (ip address) that seems to used to have lived in the US (or really, any country to country bump) could be scored higher.
Accounts that constantly sell items in the same category without trouble could have a few points deducted from the score. Maybe more than a few.
And at the end of all of that scoring each staff numismatist has a queue to work and is given insight into how the score was derived so they might know what to look for.
Or perhaps there is some great way to make a learning algorithm that just does statistical analysis on all of the above (much like a good portion of spam is filtered today) where it leans what combinations of data give an item a high probability of being sold by a scam artist. >>
Excellent ideas!
Lance.
<< <i>
<< <i>Go back to the free wheeling days of the late 90's. Why should ebay police buyers and sellers? Seriously. Ebay was a much better place when it was just a selling venue. >>
Congratulations...You just won the Golden Raspberry Award with that above statement. >>
Sorry, you don't get my point. Most people won't.
This thread is a perfect example of why ebay, or any other selling venue, shouldn't have to police their buyers and sellers.
The reason they do, is exactly outlined in the responses of this thread. People demand "safety". The real problem here is that the actual police, rarely care about property theft, so when a buyer gets ripped, nothing is done. The public clamors for the VENUE to act as the police, then all sorts of "rules" and "regulations" get implemented, many of which are counter intuitive. See the Tiffany box reply as an example.
Nothing is truly ever resolved. People will continue to get ripped off, and as a result, tighter and tighter regulations will be implemented, until eventually people will demand government become involved. Don't think so? Just do a google search or a forum search on the subject and you will see a number of people clamoring for the coin "Industry" to be regulated by the government.
The bottom line is, the real failure is with the actual police enforcing property theft laws, and the Federal government actively enforcing counterfeiting laws, and import restrictions regarding intellectual property rights, i.e. China. Fighting crime is just too hard for most people. It's much easier to demand regulations for everything and create a false sense of "safety".
I've never understood why people feel the need to protect other people from their own stupidity. 99% of the rip offs on ebay or anywhere else can be avoided with nothing more than common sense.
But people recoil from personal responsibility, so have fun filling out your forms, setting up your committees, reporting your activities, and trading your freedom for "safety".
<< <i>I had the same conversation with an eBay exec as John Maben. When a company starts polling outsiders, it's a clear indication of them being lost.
Ever notice how Amazon doesn't have these issues? >>
Could be because when you buy on Amazon you are buying from Amazon. When you buy on Ebay you don't really know who you are buying from. Could be some 14 year old in Latvia who has listed himself as being in Kansas.
"A car is a tool that takes you from one place to another. Everything beyond that is a payment for other people's perception of you."
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Hire 2 or 3 highly qualified experienced numismatists to screen all listings before they go live... >>
Looking at just auctions, there are currently around 150,000 listings on eBay. Assuming 7 day autions, that amount would basically need to be approved every week. Allowing 30 seconds per listing for review would require 4,500,000 seconds, which is 75,000 hours. At 40 hours/week and not allowing for breaks, that would require 1,875 reviewers.
And this doesn't begin to address fixed price listings. Or paper money listings. Or a bunch of other numismatically related stuff.
Just sayin...
One of the three person team could be constantly evaluating those accounts at higher risk and only those accounts would be scrutinized by a human unless another account is reported to their specific department directly, also there are many other was using modern technology and ebay's resources to make it happen with three highly qualified screeners and automation. Just sayin.
John >>
Account evaluations based on volume are constantly being conducted by Paypal. Paypal takes steps to withhold a portion of account income from even the best of sellers. They hold a minimum $1000 in my account at all times and an additional 5% of all ebay sales for 90 days. They tell me I have one of their best withholding deals for sellers doing volume.
"A car is a tool that takes you from one place to another. Everything beyond that is a payment for other people's perception of you."
<< <i>
<< <i>I had the same conversation with an eBay exec as John Maben. When a company starts polling outsiders, it's a clear indication of them being lost.
Ever notice how Amazon doesn't have these issues? >>
Could be because when you buy on Amazon you are buying from Amazon. When you buy on Ebay you don't really know who you are buying from. Could be some 14 year old in Latvia who has listed himself as being in Kansas. >>
Im not sure that's entirely accurate , i used to use Amazon and it was made up of various sellers and has its feedback system.Im pretty sure it still is that way to some extent.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I had the same conversation with an eBay exec as John Maben. When a company starts polling outsiders, it's a clear indication of them being lost.
Ever notice how Amazon doesn't have these issues? >>
Could be because when you buy on Amazon you are buying from Amazon. When you buy on Ebay you don't really know who you are buying from. Could be some 14 year old in Latvia who has listed himself as being in Kansas. >>
Im not sure that's entirely accurate , i used to use Amazon and it was made up of various sellers and has its feedback system.Im pretty sure it still is that way to some extent. >>
It is still that way.
John >>
Account evaluations based on volume are constantly being conducted by Paypal. Paypal takes steps to withhold a portion of account income from even the best of sellers. They hold a minimum $1000 in my account at all times and an additional 5% of all ebay sales for 90 days. They tell me I have one of their best withholding deals for sellers doing volume. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>I had the same conversation with an eBay exec as John Maben. When a company starts polling outsiders, it's a clear indication of them being lost.
Ever notice how Amazon doesn't have these issues? >>
Could be because when you buy on Amazon you are buying from Amazon. When you buy on Ebay you don't really know who you are buying from. Could be some 14 year old in Latvia who has listed himself as being in Kansas. >>
Amazon has a slew of private sellers. If you wanna complain about paypal you should here some of the nightmare tales about amazon holding private vendors funds!
Indeed, too many folks are looking for ‘other people’ to develop solutions for which there is no problem. The coin trade is self selecting (primarily through both greed and ignorance) though the do-gooders incessantly attempt to imbue the market with the minutiae of impossible regulations.
No doubt they will eventually succeed, to the great harm of the hobby and the trade…