A Question to Dealers: Do you stand behind your merchandise?

AnkurJ · December 4, 2011 1:18PM

In general, when a collector buys a coin, and after a certain period of time wants to sell/trade it back to you, what is your policy? Is there a certain percentage you will take off from the purchase price? I know a few dealers who will give back 100% of the paid price.

I ask because today I was offerred $250 for a coin I paid a dealer $650 for last year. I was pretty much speechless and don't plan to buy from him again. And just to add, the market for this type of coin has not collapsed or dropped substantially.

I would love to know how other dealers handle these type of situations.

Fire away.
AJ

CarlWohlforth · December 4, 2011 1:29PM

If a customer buys a coin and wants to return it after a few days he gets the full refund. After a year it is a new deal. Knowing I sold someone a coin for $650 I would not offer $250 for it a year later. I would just say I'm not in the market for it.

savoyspecial · December 4, 2011 1:39PM

>>I ask because today I was offerred $250 for a coin I paid a dealer $650 for last year....>>

perhaps you paid too much.....just sayin'

and yes, a dealer should stand behind their merchandise with a lifetime assurance of the coin's authenticity.....there is never an expected amount (or percentage) to purchase a coin back at, unless spelled out at the time of purchase by the dealer

Moldnut · December 4, 2011 1:39PM

If the market did not change (so you say) for this type of coin, you would have no problem selling it on your own through one of the many venues now available to the common collector. My guess is that the market has changed a bit more than you may want to believe.

savoyspecial · December 4, 2011 1:44PM

oh and i almost missed this pearl:

>> I know a few dealers who will give back 100% of the paid price.>>

really?? within the same calendar year? doesnt seem like the best business model but i'm curious for more info

wondercoin · December 4, 2011 1:51PM

"I know a few dealers who will give back 100% of the paid price."

Can you name one or two here please. I am sure it would be great publicity for those dealers.

Wondercoin

MidLifeCrisis · December 4, 2011 1:52PM

<< Knowing I sold someone a coin for $650 I would not offer $250 for it a year later. I would just say I'm not in the market for it. >>

<< there is never an expected amount (or percentage) to purchase a coin back at, unless spelled out at the time of purchase by the dealer >>

I think Carl and Greg provided the best answers to your question.

A year is just not a lot of time. What has the overall economy done in the last year? If it has negatively effected most people, don't you think it has negatively effected the dealer too?

If anything, you should expect to receive an offer of significantly less than you paid if trying to sell them back within a year or two or even three...for most coins most of the time.

There are very few exceptions.

LanceNewmanOCC · December 4, 2011 1:53PM

.
although your scenario doesn't state anything about a return

i offer a no-hassle no-questions-asked return policy within a few days

i buy hundreds of coins in a single day so someone should be able to figure out within 72 hours if they want to keep the item or not
.
return an item a year later, i would probably just make an offer or consider one and not consider it a return

if i sell items back to people i buy them from, i do it at a small loss just so i don't have to call it a return
.

Unknown · December 4, 2011 2:01PM

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GrumpyEd · December 4, 2011 5:01PM

Standing behind a coin being genuine is expected.
Buying it back at a fair price is good but not expected, if they do it when possible it would make customers happy.

The problem with a dealer making a blanket statement like "I'll buy it back for 100% for a year" is that it could be abused.
Someone can buy coins and try selling them at a gain over the year then if he can't he returns them for the 100% return so it becomes a zero risk investment. People could invest in coins sold near bullion price with no risk.

I wish stock brokers would give me a deal like that! LOL....

WTCG · December 4, 2011 5:39PM

I can't think of any dealer who will unconditionally refund the full purchase price after more than a few days from the original purchase date. Barring authenticity issues expecting a dealer to do so weeks or months after the original purchase is unreasonable and unfeasible.

There is no set buyback percentage for resells back to the dealer. The buyback amount depends on market conditions, current value and salability factors.

Jmiami · December 4, 2011 6:38PM

Seems as if you are asking if a dealer should lend you a coin for a year if you put a cash deposit equal to the coins value at the time.

tydye · December 4, 2011 7:11PM

I see that you are a dealer now. What is your policy at PQ Collectibles? If i purchased a coin from you today what percentage would i be guaranteed to get back next december? Would it be 100%?

Broadstruck · December 4, 2011 7:22PM

<< "I know a few dealers who will give back 100% of the paid price."

Can you name one or two here please. I am sure it would be great publicity for those dealers.

Wondercoin >>

NFC coins once gave me back 100% percent of a $550 purchase made 6 months earlier as trade credit towards a new $1350 coin.

TwoSides2aCoin · December 4, 2011 7:43PM

I stand behind my counter. That's dangerous enough. But I usually offer 90% of purchase price on coins returned (which is rare) . A few times it was a 100% return. Those 100%ers, were asked to find another dealer and they haven't been back. Their demands were met, as well as my request.

One customer buys silver dimes, and then (usually within 3 to 6 months), by some magical, mystical , dastardly trick; returns the dimes and asks me to pay near spot. He knows I won't pay "spot" but a percentage back. Of course, he's making money so that little percentage doesn't hurt a bit. I get tired of searching the same old dimes.

Now they just get thrown in the lot.

I've been asking him to bring back the raw saints I sold him for $1450. He's a chicken and refuses.

.... but he is still my customer.

RYK · December 4, 2011 7:51PM

<< I am really confused. So lets say I am a dealer, I believe in what I am selling and I believe in increasing my customer base. I sell a coin and a year later the client returns the coin, assuming the market hasn't tanked, why wouldn't I make him whole again? I would just go and sell, this wonderful coin that I felt so strongly about that I put my client in it, to another client bececause I beleived in the coin and I believed in increasing my client base. I might even get more second time around. Why would I have to charge a restocking fee, why would i have to make a profit on it twice, why would I hurt my client, what is it really saying when you don't want to return your client's money if he changed his mind for whatever reason, yes a year later. Why wouldn't I stand behind my coins. Dealers that don't are only looking at their business in the short term and it is a terrible way to do business and trust me us collector's have long memories, and when a dealer treats us right we remember and we go back to him and we are loyal. And when a dealer doesn't stand behind their coins we remember that too, trust me on this one. >>

RO, Let's say that I lease an apartment from you and two months into a one year lease, I decide that I do not want to live there any longer. Since it really did not cost you anything for me to live there, you own the property outright, and it's all profit, you refund the rent I paid and the security deposit because it's good business, right? You do not care about the short- term hit because you want me to be a tenant in the future, right?

TwoSides2aCoin · December 4, 2011 7:56PM

RYK

... and that one customer who sold me his dimes in April ? He's coming back for that LOT of dimes. Do the math.
Not to mix precious metals with coins, but....

some of us need charts, graphs and numbers to get to the bottom line.

Greeniejr · December 4, 2011 8:52PM

I stand behind everything I sell but that doesn't mean you get 100% of your money back if you sell it it right away. If you buy a raw coin from me, I will buy it back based on the grade we had listed. If I sell a coin as PQ, I will buy it back as a PQ piece. If I sell a coin unreserved on eBay.... well its probably a piece of junk that I never want to see again. There have been cases where a few months later I gave someone 100% credit on a coin because it was a tough coin and an unexpected upgrade came along.

AnkurJ · December 4, 2011 8:56PM

For coins and collectibles I sell on my site, I would pay 90% of what I charged as long as the market did not tank. In some cases with art though, I would probably offer MORE because of an upturn in the market.

But to to offer $250 to a repeat customer for something you charged $650 for? Frankly I find it to be a low blow. If he offered say $450 I probably would have taken it. I realize now how overpriced this dealer is. That combined with my overzealousness has pretty much buried me. I would rather chock it up and make it tuition then sell it back to him for $250 when I know he will mark it back at $650 to sell it.

QuarterCollector · December 4, 2011 9:12PM

Dick Osburn twice gave me a full refund in trade. One coin I had in my collection for well over a year.

Tom

RedTiger · December 4, 2011 9:15PM

All is fair in dealer to dealer transactions. Once you put on that dealer hat, the rules changed. To expect 100% back as a dealer is idiocy. You had a whole year to try and sell the coin for a profit, and now that it didn't work out, you want the first dealer to eat what may be your mistake? Good luck, but it looks like someone has very unrealistic expectations, and also didn't disclose the entire picture in the first post.

PerryHall · December 4, 2011 9:18PM

Was this coin an esoteric item that is difficult to sell and may sit in the dealer's inventory for a long time? Was this dealer a large nationally known dealer or a smaller local dealer?

TomB · December 4, 2011 9:18PM

Carl, Greg and Derek hit most of the major points right off the bat.

I would add, however, that a buyback from many dealers likely also depends upon if the coin was owned outright by the dealer, in a partnership with someone else or was consigned to the dealer. A coin previously owned outright stands the best chance of having a very high offer when brought back to the dealer followed by a coin previously owned in partnership with someone else. Consigned coins are an entirely different animal where the dealer had no money out of pocket initially on the piece and might not have wanted to use precious liquidity on keeping the piece in stock, but as a consigned coin the dealer was quite happy to offer it on their site. Therefore, when a previously consigned coin is offered back there may be no offer of a buy in return or that offer to buy might be lower than the other cases. Additionally, if you wear the dealer hat as well as the collector hat you may not get the same treatment because you might not be considered a retail customer now or in the future. Since you like to wear the dealer hat this might cost you in this scenario. Also, when a coin is sold one does not know if the coin was offered for sale by the current owner and, if this had happened, the dealer might not be so aggressive to buy the coin back as it has been offered around and might be stale. Lastly, I do not always consider the ability to trade a coin in for a more expensive coin a type of buyback.

TwoSides2aCoin · December 4, 2011 9:19PM

There's a limit to who we can deal with in business. We have to figure out who best serves us, yet always be a better servant to them (you mentioned your website and selling) as business people.
Those who "gotcha" will continue to "getcha" until you draw the line or learn the ropes.
I like you Ankur, but this is not a forum to use the "collector" card against the dealer , when in fact, you're dealing.
You should know coins well enough by now that if you got stuck in a coin... well friend, that's where the buck stops. Eat the loss and move forward. Don't like the coin ? Get the skivvy before purchase. Otherwise, be wise. The guy who has the skill, charm, charisma and savvy to get people to stretch are not villains. How many people sell their coins back to Home Shopping Network ?

jdimmick · December 4, 2011 9:36PM

Yes, i stand behind the coins I sell. if found to be not genuine, or an issue that was not know at the time, such as damaged altered surfaces, etc

Also, I try to pay a little tighter on the re-purchase of coins from prior customers , but market conditions do change, and people just have to understand. Not just referring to bullion.

I would never offer a 100% buyback over a x period of time. However I have a few several pieces I would like the have the opportunity to buy back if the time came, and might pay much more, or least the same

erickso1 · December 4, 2011 9:54PM

<< Was this coin an esoteric item that is difficult to sell and may sit in the dealer's inventory for a long time? Was this dealer a large nationally known dealer or a smaller local dealer? >>

I was just wondering this too. This sounds a lot like the medal scenario of the recent past w/ Ankur asking for a refund/buyback and getting getting an offer that did not meet his expectations.

I'd search for the thread but I have Chrome.

halfcentman · December 4, 2011 10:08PM

Ankur, et al,

Many of you are missing the point, but I think thaty Ankur did not phrase it the best way either.

The situation is more complex than it appears to be. However, if you want to make things easy assume everything is almost constant from the original purchase to the attempted resale.

STAND BY YOUR MERCHANDISE is ambiguous. Making a fair offer to a repeat customer on something you sold them is another. $250 on a $650 coin is not fair unless Ankur went through someone's junk box and bought modern proof singles - which we all know he did not do.

I think that Ankur is justified to write this guy off based on what I have read. The fact that he was OK with taking a $200 hit shows his head is not in the sand.

RYK · December 4, 2011 10:45PM

As a collector, one learns very quickly which coins have high liquidity, which coins are likely/unlikely to be owned by the dealer selling them, which retail dealers are essentially fronts for other wholesalers, and, probably most importantly, which coins are likely to be highly sought by dealers when you want to sell them. Frankly, these are the ones that I want to be adding to my collection.

In the words of our departed friend Bear:

Every purchase is an eventual sale and I want my coins to make the dealers
mouths water as they line up to bid on them.

When I buy a coin, I am always also giving some consideration to the exit. Will I change collecting directions (again)? Will I find a nice example to replace it? What if my house burns down? Who will buy it from me? Why will they buy it from me? Etc. I think that the collectors who pay no heed to the eventual sale at the time of purchase, even if they plan to keep the coin "forever", are most likely to be disappointed when it comes time to sell the coin.

tahoe98 · December 4, 2011 11:38PM

<< "I know a few dealers who will give back 100% of the paid price."

Can you name one or two here please. I am sure it would be great publicity for those dealers.

Wondercoin >>

...ditto!

BigRick · December 4, 2011 11:47PM

"I know a few dealers who will give back 100% of the paid price."

Can you name one or two here please. I am sure it would be great publicity for those dealers.

Wondercoin

Angel Dees & L & C (just to name 2) as long as you're buying something else of equal or greater value (i.e. a "store credit").

I too would like to know of any that will give a true refund.

Unknown · December 5, 2011 12:37AM

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Elcontador · December 5, 2011 12:45AM

One reason I do not buy / sell many coins is because in my hands, any given coin is worth at a minimum 10-15% less than it is in a dealer's case. This is how they make their money and I have no issue with this. Once a return period (typically a week or less) expires, the above applies.

A year later, you have to consider market factors into the equation. Re type PC 66 Liberty Nickels, in a one year period, pricing went from $1,200-$1,300 to $950-$1,000. Back out 10-15% if you're selling to a dealer.

RYK · December 5, 2011 12:46AM

I have never returned a coin after the approval period except for recently when I called a dealer telling him that I thought that I had changed my mind on an 4/15/2011 purchase, and the dealer wanted a 15% restocking fee.

In other words, the dealer was willing to pay 85% of what you paid him. Seems reasonable. You may have been able to negotiate it to 90%.

RichR · December 5, 2011 12:47AM

Right up until the check clears...

19Lyds · December 5, 2011 12:49AM

<< I am really confused. So lets say I am a dealer, I believe in what I am selling and I believe in increasing my customer base. I sell a coin and a year later the client returns the coin, assuming the market hasn't tanked, why wouldn't I make him whole again? >>

Because you are a Coin DEALER and NOT a Bank or a Pawn Shop.
Coin Dealers have expenses. Coin Dealers sell coins at a specific or publically accepted Mark Up.
Customers that return coins should not expect a refund of the full value they paid for a coin anymore than expecting full value for an unused article of clothing that has been return to the original store it was purchased at after a year.

Coin Dealers that HOLD customers money on the off chance that they just might want to return the coin in a year or so, don't usually stay in business longer than a year or so.

Now, on the other end of the stick, what if the value of the coin tripled in the year that it had been owned? Would the buyer be upset if the dealer only offered "original purchase value" when the buyer wanted to return it?

19Lyds · December 5, 2011 12:53AM

<< For coins and collectibles I sell on my site, I would pay 90% of what I charged as long as the market did not tank. In some cases with art though, I would probably offer MORE because of an upturn in the market.

But to to offer $250 to a repeat customer for something you charged $650 for? Frankly I find it to be a low blow. If he offered say $450 I probably would have taken it. I realize now how overpriced this dealer is. That combined with my overzealousness has pretty much buried me. I would rather chock it up and make it tuition then sell it back to him for $250 when I know he will mark it back at $650 to sell it. >>

I agree that a $250 offer was a bit out of line and would have asked the dealer why such a large difference.

messydesk · December 5, 2011 12:55AM

Assuming a stable market value for a particular coin, I would expect a dealer that sold me a coin to be interested at a modest (10-15%) discount from my purchase price and to be as enthusiastic about the coin as he was when I bought it. After all, he now gets the opportunity to repeat the sale with that same enthusiasm. Offering 50% back of my purchase price and explaining it with disparaging comments about a coin about which he so recently couldn't sing enough praises is grounds for writing off that dealer. Receiving 100% in any context other than immediately applying it toward another purchase would surprise me.

kryptonitecomics · December 5, 2011 1:03AM

<< If a customer buys a coin and wants to return it after a few days he gets the full refund. After a year it is a new deal. Knowing I sold someone a coin for $650 I would not offer $250 for it a year later. I would just say I'm not in the market for it. >>

+1

BAJJERFAN · December 5, 2011 1:24AM

<< For coins and collectibles I sell on my site, I would pay 90% of what I charged as long as the market did not tank. In some cases with art though, I would probably offer MORE because of an upturn in the market.

But to to offer $250 to a repeat customer for something you charged $650 for? Frankly I find it to be a low blow. If he offered say $450 I probably would have taken it. I realize now how overpriced this dealer is. That combined with my overzealousness has pretty much buried me. I would rather chock it up and make it tuition then sell it back to him for $250 when I know he will mark it back at $650 to sell it. >>

If he can get $650 for it then chances are good that you should be able to get that too or something close to that depending on how motivated a seller you are. In today's climate, a savvy collector probably has 80% or better [a SWAG on my part] of the selling resources available to most dealers.

wondercoin · December 5, 2011 1:35AM

"I know a few dealers who will give back 100% of the paid price."

Can you name one or two here please. I am sure it would be great publicity for those dealers.

Wondercoin

Angel Dees & L & C (just to name 2) as long as you're buying something else of equal or greater value (i.e. a "store credit").

I too would like to know of any that will give a true refund."

***************************************************************

Bigrick: I am informed this is simply not correct as I spoke with one of your two listed dealers this morning who made it clear to me that was simply not the case.

Wondercoin

Coin Finder · December 5, 2011 1:55AM

I need more information....What exactly was the coin?

PerryHall · December 5, 2011 2:02AM

This thread is a good reminder that coins are usually not a good investment.

DDR · December 5, 2011 2:11AM

About 10 years ago I bought a Peace dollar from a dealer at a show for $25 (not much, I know.) I later bought a nicer version, so at the next show several months later I took this back to the dealer and asked him what he would give me for it. The coin was still in his holder, marked $30. He asked me what I paid for it, I replied "$25." He replied, "you're right" and slapped down $25 on the table. The thing was I was expecting to sell it to him for $20-22. But he gave me the full price I paid for it. You can bet that I went to his table every time from then on out. I still remember his face, although I don't remember his name. If I could, I would post it here.

Unknown · December 5, 2011 3:17AM

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topstuf · December 5, 2011 3:22AM

In my first shop, my main competitor had a cute gimmick.

"This coin is $500.00 and I'll ...always... buy it back for $450.00 (or whatever) so it's really only $50.00."

I watched it ...WORK... so many times as I stood in wonder at the idjit being spoken to.
I just couldn't do it. I would feel like a fool trying to convince someone to lose fifty bucks.
But it DID work.

PerryHall · December 5, 2011 3:45AM

<< About 10 years ago I bought a Peace dollar from a dealer at a show for $25 (not much, I know.) I later bought a nicer version, so at the next show several months later I took this back to the dealer and asked him what he would give me for it. The coin was still in his holder, marked $30. He asked me what I paid for it, I replied "$25." He replied, "you're right" and slapped down $25 on the table. The thing was I was expecting to sell it to him for $20-22. But he gave me the full price I paid for it. You can bet that I went to his table every time from then on out. I still remember his face, although I don't remember his name. If I could, I would post it here. >>

How much did silver go up while you were holding that coin?

notwilight · December 5, 2011 4:36AM

I have bought back coins for more than I sold them for on many occasions. If any of the buyers who bought FS Buffalo Gold 4 pc sets from me for under $3000 want to sell them back for 100% profit, please let me know.

OTOH, I have had to tell buyers on a couple of occasions that the market has gone the other way. Whenever the buyback price is for some reason insulting (and I don't know the details of the OP), it is best to just pass.

--Jerry

telephoto1 · December 5, 2011 5:30AM

We stand behind everything we sell and offer reasonable return periods, particularly when dealing on Ebay, etc... but expecting to get 100% of what you paid a year or two later (assuming the market hasn't gone up of course), especially on an outright sale (not a trade against something else-that's a different scenario entirely), is just plain silly. If you buy that $650 coin from me and come back a year later (all other things remaining equal) we arent going to lowball you at $250 to be sure, but we aren't going to work for free either; you'll likely get $575, more or less- depending on the item, its current saleability and whether or not I currently have others like it on hand that I'm not selling. If you want to use it as trade material you'll most likely get your 100%, depending somewhat on the item being traded against (and the margin therein).

However, if it is someone who's merely been playing dealer and whoring my stuff around for a year, and they come back expecting a 100% refund when they can't sell it...LOL-good luck with that. The unspoken rule on dealer-to-dealer sales is usually "no returns" unless some buyback deal at some reasonable discount has been agreed to beforehand. But it's certainly not a 100% buyback deal, nor would any right thinking person expect it to be.

In short... to expect a dealer to essentially rent you any coin for free for 6 months, a year, 2 years or longer is ludicrous... and to imply that a dealer is somehow less than honest or doesn't "stand behind his merchandise" when he's not OK with that scenario is ludicrously unfair and indicates a fundamental lack of understanding of the concept of running a business.

Do you work for free? No? Then why should a coin dealer do so?

/rant

Edit to fix typo.

roadrunner · December 5, 2011 6:47AM

Today I noticed that Dick Osbourn has an MS62 on his website for $9,750. Now assuming i wanted to return the dime shouldn't Legend pay me more?
I have never returned a coin after the approval period except for recently when I called a dealer telling him that I thought that I had changed my mind on an 4/15/2011 purchase, and the dealer wanted a 15% restocking fee. I have to admit I was surprised by the answer but he stated that he needed to make a profit, which does make sense of course, I just like to make compromises......so it goes both ways.

You can't compare asking prices from different dealers as an absolute truth. Some may want 50-100% over published retail market while another may want slightly under current wholesale. Legend can't be held to what Dick Osburn is asking or vice versa. But suffice to say offering $250 for a coin that you sold to a customer for $650 a year earlier where the market didn't fall off a cliff is about the most stupid thing imagineable. I had that same experience with my first significant coin dealer back in the last 1970's. And that lead to never doing business with him again. And one cannot use the "it's on consignment" excuse as to why you asked $650 on a $250 coin. If that's your reason then you should have never stuck that coin with someone you would call a true "customer." Better to move that coin out of the area or even via another dealer if you wanted to stick someone for $650. I personally would just refuse to take the coin if I knew my own buy price was $250. Sorry, Mr. Consignor....take your inflated asking prices elsewhere because I have customers to look out for.
As a general rule most dealers don't want to see the bulk of the coins they have sold over the years back. Or specifically, they don't want them back if they sold them to collectors for all the money. They'd much rather ignore those "buy backs" and concentrate on buying from the uninformed at 10c to 40c on the dollar. Most dealers would just rather tell you they have no real need for your coins at the moment (ie no customer demand, no cash available, bad day of the week, rent is due, big show coming up, etc.).

roadrunner

wondercoin · December 5, 2011 7:00AM

"If any of the buyers who bought FS Buffalo Gold 4 pc sets from me for under $3000 want to sell them back for 100% profit, please let me know."

I sold them for $2,500/set. My buyers are closing in on a 200% profit now!! And, other coins and coin sets go the other way too.

Wondercoin

LanLord · December 5, 2011 7:22AM

"A Question to Dealers: Do you stand behind your merchandise?"

Sometimes, at other times I'll be next to it, but I'm always close to it. I find that if I stand in front of my merchandise, the customer can't see it well!

A Question to Dealers: Do you stand behind your merchandise?

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