New Legend Market Report posted

Justacommeman · December 3, 2011 8:21PM

click me

MJ

Wingsrule · December 3, 2011 8:35PM

For the life of us, even though we have friends who are the top collectors and dealers of comic books, we could never understand how they justify and sustain value.

Supply and demand, I think, just like any other collectible.

RYK · December 3, 2011 9:26PM

I was at a holiday party last night and spoke to a work friend-colleague of my wife who is a collector-dealer of post cards and other collectible paper and also pottery. Most of what she seemed to be buying and selling would be categorized as crap (and she freely admits that it is so), yet there is a market for it, and she enjoys finding a post card at a flea market for $2 and selling it on eBay for $80.

Her husband is in on it, too. Of the four of us, only my wife was not a collector. At one point in the conversation, I said something to the effect that there are two kinds of people: those who collect stuff and those who do not. And there are many people who do, and many collect things that seem absurd to me.

$2M for the finest Superman #1 does not seem out of line to me.

Lakesammman · December 3, 2011 10:07PM

Nice report - thanks for the link.

RYK - I have a house full of pottery and ironstone - PM me if interested.

coinkat · December 3, 2011 10:33PM

certain pottery can be quite valuable-

secondrepublic · December 3, 2011 10:34PM

<< $2M for the finest Superman #1 does not seem out of line to me. >>

Totally agree. Superman also has cross-over cultural appeal way beyond any coin. Everyone has heard of Superman, but probably only a small minority have heard of the '33 double eagle or other multimillion dollar coins.

coinkat · December 3, 2011 10:40PM

Interest and demographics is the key.

Comic books and comic book art has a huge following- I am not sure I buy into the analysis as it seems to be sort of an apples v oranges comparison.

2M for the best Superman 1st Edition- seems alot of $$$ to me.

Fountainhead · December 3, 2011 10:41PM

Stamps had a huge following and look what happened to them! The only way to get rid of 'em is to use 'em.

RedTiger · December 3, 2011 11:46PM

<< For the life of us, even though we have friends who are the top collectors and dealers of comic books, we could never understand how they justify and sustain value.

Supply and demand, I think, just like any other collectible. >>

The comic book collectors and other collectors may think the same of coins. Typical thought might be: You paid how much more because it has the letters CC on the coin? What? You paid how much more because it looks a LITTLE nicer than the other coin (one grade or two grade differences in price). What?

I took a non-coin buddy to a coin show and he thought that coins should be priced mostly by type. That worn and common Buffalo nickels should be priced about the same as key date gems. He collects cars and fully understands condition and originality, but some how that thinking didn't cross over into a hobby that he is unfamiliar with.

As for Superman, they are still making new comics, and movies and merchandise so the franchises has enduring value. What support do coins have other than intrinsic value (and most numismatic rare coins trade for far more than intrinsic) and the current bull markets in metals? As always, no one knows future prices, though top dealers probably have a better idea than most. That said, most will not publicly tell what they really think if they expect a major tumble in items that they stock and sell.

agentjim007 · December 3, 2011 11:53PM

Even Common date Walkers in MS66 at $225.00 and MS67 Walkers+Morgans below $1,000.00 seem too cheap.

Are these " dreck" ?

JBN · December 4, 2011 12:08AM

<< Even Common date Walkers in MS66 at $225.00 and MS67 Walkers+Morgans below $1,000.00 seem too cheap.

Are these " dreck" ? >>

Dreck can be present in any coin type or grade. Most basically, dreck is the opposite of PQ.

You could be 'stuck' or 'buried' if you bought a dreck MS66 WLH for $225.

What keeps dreck in the marketplace is the thinking by some that buying a dreck piece for less than normal bid is a bargain.

When it comes time to sell a dreck piece, the fallacy of this thinking is revealed financially.

That being said, money CAN be made in dreck if one purchases a dreck piece for less than the low bid for the next lower grade plus the relevant grading fees, then dips the coin (if the source of 'dreckness' is ugly toning), reholders the coin appropriately (typically one grade lower), and sells it. Too much work IMHO. Easier to just avoid the dreck and let someone else deal with it.

ranshdow · December 4, 2011 1:17AM

Stratvarious violins

Dude... is that like a Stratcaster guitar? The electric version?

Party on, Garth!

yellowkid · December 4, 2011 1:57AM

<< For the life of us, even though we have friends who are the top collectors and dealers of comic books, we could never understand how they justify and sustain value.

Supply and demand, I think, just like any other collectible. >>

Where has she been, comics have been getting "big" money for 40 years.

TahoeDale · December 4, 2011 2:00AM

Best evidence that you need to hold a rare coin for many years, before you see high gains:

1798 small eagle early dollar in AU 58. This coin came from Dr. Hesselgesser's fine collection of early dollars. sold in 2011
by Goldbergs. He bought the coin after the sale of the Cardinal collection, and held it approx 5 years. In the meantime, another 98 sm eagle dollar
in 58 sold for 230,000( that coin is now a PC 61, and in tight hands).

It is now for sale, as the owner is changing directions, acc. to the site. And is priced 10% less than the 350,000 it brought earlier this year.

While this ED is very very nice, it probably cannot command a higher price within 6 months of the last sale.

On another note: just because an early dollar variety is scarce, it is not worthy of a big price if over graded and only average.
In 2009, an AU 58 of the same date, but not PC graded, not CAC--brought 23,000--- that's 15 times less than one is great condition
for the grade.

MercLovin · December 4, 2011 2:05AM

Clif Notes;
"Blah blah blah, why are people pissing away money on comic books when they could be buying our coins? Buy our coins, they're undervalued and will be worth more than our competitors in ten years because we only pick the finest!"

PerryHall · December 4, 2011 2:08AM

<< Clif Notes;
"Blah blah blah, why are people pissing away money on comic books when they could be buying our coins? Buy our coins, they're undervalued and will be worth more than our competitors in ten years because we only pick the finest!" >>

Well, at least she's consistent.

DennisH · December 4, 2011 2:09AM

Good luck to the person who bought the comic book.

Anything printed on paper – nevermind the cheap-as-hell quality stuff used for early comic books – will slowly decompose, disintegrate and turn to bits of dust. Metal is inert; coins will survive forever. I'll take my chances there.

shorecoll · December 4, 2011 3:27AM

I actually agree Dennis, unless the owner of that book stores it in one of those inert gas refrigerated book vaults like they use for Gutenbergs.

pennyannie · December 4, 2011 3:31AM

I know a lot of well off people that have lots of money and to my knowlege only 1 or 2 have any coins and they were bought long ago. I think when these guys were making their mark 30 years ago coins were sold in the same store x rated magazines were sold in. You did not have access to coins like we do today.

There is a local place that the money people eat on saturday mornings and if you were to get honest answers for them as they leave, out of 100 people only a few will have any coins, a few more will have bullion and only Simpson has many millions in coins. I doubt the guys he eats with even knows he has coins and no would care to be honest.

Most of the people i know with money are not going to spend large sums on coins because a coin dealer in new york says it is a good deal, they have all heard that in various forms for years.

AnkurJ · December 4, 2011 5:01AM

I have collected comics for years but stopped around 8 years ago when I was happy with what I had.
While I dont own Action comics #1, I do own many early issues as well as Batman #1 etc. Compared to what I paid in the late 90s early 2000's, I can make a very handsome profit on nearly all of my books. Those who sold them to me touch base now and then to see if I want to sell. I do not as I dont need the cash.

Characters like Superman, Batman and Spiderman are eternal and will probably be around forever. The Batman 1 I bought in 2003 is now worth about 3x what I paid. Ill take that kind of return any day.

topstuf · December 4, 2011 5:02AM

If Vance has a better, more expensive coin than Steve in Silicon Valley, Steve may....MAY.... decide to "one up" Vance and buy something "better."

But with the dearth of young COLLECTORS, I just can't see a skyrocket future for numismatics.
We...us... geezer collectors may still buy something new but we know what we want and in the end may or may not get it.

Looking at Legend's inventory and trying to extrapolate even a double into the future just can't fly in my book.

I could be wrong, but I don't see liquidity sufficient to convince NEW buyers to continue their moon chase.

yellowkid · December 4, 2011 5:05AM

And then you can alwys mix your coins with your comics.

Elcontador · December 4, 2011 5:24AM

Maybe my old Zap comix are worth some $. An obscene black-light Disneyland poster I bought as a college sophomore is actually worth $200 to $300 forty years later. There might be something to this comic-book thing.........

291fifth · December 4, 2011 5:54AM

I wonder what percentage of the comic book market is classified as dreck?

AnkurJ · December 4, 2011 6:37AM

<< I wonder what percentage of the comic book market is classified as dreck? >>

The entire market or just the golden age time period? You have to understand comics with problems are acceptable because its paper that was meant to be read. So dreck is not really a word that would apply. But as for undesired golden age books, I would say they take up about 50% of the market.

mingot · December 4, 2011 7:07AM

<< I actually agree Dennis, unless the owner of that book stores it in one of those inert gas refrigerated book vaults like they use for Gutenbergs. >>

Might be worth considering for a 2 million dollar book, but even if the owner doesn't do this taking normal precautions for storage will ensure that the book outlasts him in pretty much the same condition that it was in on purchase.

mingot · December 4, 2011 7:09AM

Oh and I quit collecting a few years ago after finishing my mad 1-23 run in mid-high grade.

I might get back into it at some point. Probably with another EC series.

bronzemat · December 4, 2011 7:34AM

In case the non comic collectors dont know, NGC certifies comic books in plastic tombs like coins. Not sure the cost as I dont buy comics in plastic, I like to read them, lol.

bulldozer · December 4, 2011 7:40AM

I agree with Laura! A two million dollar comic book? Its not even the hand drawn stuff.

I also agree with who ever her mentioned we pay more for those little cc's.

Coinosaurus · December 4, 2011 9:52AM

I'm not sure there's much difference between a Superman #1 and a gem chain cent. Each have zero intrinsic value and pretty much trade at high vaule because they are unique and deep expressions of American culture and history which resonate with rich people.

BaronVonBaugh · December 4, 2011 11:58AM

<< I'm not sure there's much difference between a Superman #1 and a gem chain cent. Each have zero intrinsic value and pretty much trade at high vaule because they are unique and deep expressions of American culture and history which resonate with rich people. >>

The difference is, if you give me a NM Superman #1 it will be for sale shortly, whereas if you give me a nice MS65 chain cent I would add it to my collection.
You know, Superman is just an illegal alien. At least Spiderman is a legal resident!

Copperguy · December 4, 2011 12:05PM

<< Clif Notes;
"Blah blah blah, why are people pissing away money on comic books when they could be buying our coins? Buy our coins, they're undervalued and will be worth more than our competitors in ten years because we only pick the finest!" >>

Copperguy · December 4, 2011 12:06PM

When i read these i just hear Blah, Blah, Blah Blah......

AnkurJ · December 4, 2011 1:03PM

<< When i read these i just hear Blah, Blah, Blah Blah...... >>

Maybe you should not bother reading then or stop after the first line.

All negativity aside, I think this is the take home message: "do not be afraid to pay 20-40% premium for a great coin today."

It reminds me of this thread I started some time ago:

Overpaying for Quality

pennyannie · December 4, 2011 3:05PM

<< 

<< When i read these i just hear Blah, Blah, Blah Blah...... >>

Maybe you should not bother reading then or stop after the first line.

All negativity aside, I think this is the take home message: "do not be afraid to pay 20-40% premium for a great coin today."

It reminds me of this thread I started some time ago:

Overpaying for Quality >>

Knowing when to pay that 20 to 40 percent premium is the problem, how does a new big money guy or gal know when and when not to?

Elcontador · December 4, 2011 3:32PM

<< 

<< 

<< 

Knowing when to pay that 20 to 40 percent premium is the problem, how does a new big money guy or gal know when and when not to? >>

1) First, you need to be able to distinguish between one's ego and what is a great coin
2) It all goes out the window when you have two people with deep pockets get into a pi**ing contest at an auction.

Based on what I have seen, people overpay 20-40%, if not more, for a coin which is not really a great coin far more often than they pay this premium for a great coin.

tydye · December 4, 2011 8:50PM

<< << $2M for the finest Superman #1 does not seem out of line to me. >>

Totally agree. Superman also has cross-over cultural appeal way beyond any coin. Everyone has heard of Superman, but probably only a small minority have heard of the '33 double eagle or other multimillion dollar coins. >>

My 4 year old son loves Superman. 40 years from now he would probably sell my coin collection in order to purchase a Superman relic from his childhood.

topstuf · December 5, 2011 12:29AM

Now accepting clients for my "Nyaah nyaah, I got more expensive coins than you" managed numismatic portfolio for the rich and famous.

Coinosaurus · December 5, 2011 2:23AM

<< Now accepting clients for my "Nyaah nyaah, I got more expensive coins than you" managed numismatic portfolio for the rich and famous. >>

You are being cynical, but the ego part of the equation is not to be underestimated. If a dealer can leverage that, bully for them.

Coinosaurus · December 5, 2011 2:25AM

<< Knowing when to pay that 20 to 40 percent premium is the problem, how does a new big money guy or gal know when and when not to? >>

They don't. They will learn when they sell stuff, which hopefully they are doing piecemeal as they progress. If not a rude awakening may be in order down the line.

bulldozer · December 5, 2011 3:31AM

Work with a good dealer and they will help learn when and when not to strong prices. I learned long ago not to be so proud of what I thought I knew.

fc · December 5, 2011 2:51PM

<< I wonder what percentage of the comic book market is classified as dreck? >>

99% at least. I am not sure how many people here actually visit comic book stores
anymore but they all have something in common. Boxes and boxes of comics that
used to be priced individually. They would actually consult a price guide and mark
them. Some are $1. Some are $2.50. Some are $4.25. Etc...

Now days? Every darn comic in all the boxes are a dollar each. Hilarious to see
what some comic books used to fetch price wise as the price sticker is still on the
plastic bag yet they are now all a dollar.

Another thing comic stores have in common is that the expensive older books are
normally placed on the walls behind the counter. They have higher prices but sit up
there so long the sunlight ruins the cover. Fades it right away and the comic owner
does not seem to care. They make their money selling toys, reprints, gfx novels,
card games, etc... New comics are just a small sliver of their revenue.

So we have this small pool of slabbed comics that people cannot even read anymore.
The golden age books are desirable because there are so few with popular silver
age coming in right by it's side (spiderman, xmen, modern flash, etc...)

Now to the point. Why are some comics fetching 1 or 2 million dollars? Because
we have some very rich people wanting a new toy. A toy no one else can have.
It just so happens to be the finest known of a certain key comic series. It really
is not that complicated when it comes to comics. Very few think that it is a wise
investment at such a price so toss that out (that includes comic book collectors
in the higher end price range). Comics have just reached the point where it has
become "almost respectable" to blow such a large amount without getting laughed
at. A new toy.. summarizes it nicely if you have ever hung around with comic
books collectors long enough. Bragging rights. Etc...

pennyannie · December 5, 2011 4:36PM

<< 

<< Knowing when to pay that 20 to 40 percent premium is the problem, how does a new big money guy or gal know when and when not to? >>

They don't. They will learn when they sell stuff, which hopefully they are doing piecemeal as they progress. If not a rude awakening may be in order down the line. >>

I agree 100 percent!! I think this is the main reason coins will never reach the potenial that she talks about.

It is a hard concept to sell, hand me 100k for a coin you could sell tommorow for 60 to 70k if you can even find a buyer for it. Hold the same coin for 10 plus years and in a perfect world you may double your money or turn your 100k into 25k. I have never had much faith in that system.

I have no problem with what the out come might be in 10 years with any coin, but i do not like the part that i could buy a coin from a big name dealer today and the next day no dealers are willing to buy the coin without a 20 to 40 percent hit.

Frankcoins · December 5, 2011 5:51PM

I wonder who MJ is and if he has some financial interest in Legend Coins. Didn't our host ask us to purchase
banner ads if we wished to promote a particular business? Since Legend coins does this, anyone interested
in their viewpoints has certainly bookmarked their site.

Frankcoins · December 5, 2011 6:02PM

If a collector learns the various aspects of grading, including eye appeal, you can often pick up premium coins
for zero premium. You can be sure that dealers telling you to "step up and pay 20% to 40% more" did not, in
fact, pay 20% to 40% more when they bought the coins.

melvin289 · December 5, 2011 6:25PM

You all just don't how badly I wish these comics were still in the same condition they were in when I stored them away in 1965. I bought both new in 1960, both are 1st editions, and both could be worth a little money. I could have almost cried when I opened the storage box they had been in but life happens. Forty years in storage was not kind to them. Coins that were mixed in with some of my stuff stored back then are none the worse for wear. We win a few, we lose a few.

By the way, they were stored with approximately 250 other comics from the Silver Age. I quit buying when comics when they went to 12¢ each.

Ron

Justacommeman · December 5, 2011 6:29PM

<< I wonder who MJ is and if he has some financial interest in Legend Coins. Didn't our host ask us to purchase
banner ads if we wished to promote a particular business? Since Legend coins does this, anyone interested
in their viewpoints has certainly bookmarked their site. >>

I get paid $50 every time you respond to a Legend post. Thank you. Don Willis has no problem with these market reports. However, you seem to a pebble in your shoe where our host does not. I will heed to Don and PCGS. You go on the pay no mind list.

Yes, Legend does pay for lots of banner ads at least. How much do you pay for your ebay link in you sig line? The difference is that Laura has much to say and it's make for interesting banter on this Forum. You on the other hand...........MJ

edited for spelling

Frankcoins · December 5, 2011 8:03PM

<< 

<< I wonder who MJ is and if he has some financial interest in Legend Coins. Didn't our host ask us to purchase
banner ads if we wished to promote a particular business? Since Legend coins does this, anyone interested
in their viewpoints has certainly bookmarked their site. >>

I get paid $50 every time you respond to a Legend post. Thank you. Don Willis has no problem with these market reports. However, you seem to a pebble in your shoe where our host does not. I will heed to Don and PCGS. You go on the pay no mind list.

Yes, Legend does pay for lots of banner ads at least. How much do you pay for your ebay link in you sig line? The difference is that Laura has much to say and it's make for interesting banter on this Forum. You on the other hand...........MJ

edited for spelling >>

You know that my link to my eBay auctions is free and in compliance with Don's rules.

But a significant number of Legend strings that you post end up getting poofed or locked. You take a
a perverse delight in continuing to do so, knowing that by doing so you can stir up some carp and watch the
fireworks.

Think it's fair hurling insults at me, but you still didn't reveal who YOU are?

If I am on your "pay no mind" list, MJ goes on my "just another anonymous coward on a message board" list.

Justacommeman · December 5, 2011 8:54PM

Another $50 in my coffers. Sweet.

Most of the Legend threads that end up getting locked are because of lame diatribes and whining from a couple of posters like yourself that lead the thread into a downward spiral. Just like you are doing now. Fact is I don't post every Legend Market report. Some are too self serving or only talk about inventory so I don't link them here. I link the ones that I feel may rouse debate or get others to state their POV or are just plain interesting.

Don has publicly stated that he is ok with these threads as is David Hall. What about that don't you get? You don't like it do you? Franks Hall of Justice must take jurisdiction in your mind. You seem to take a perverse amount of delight in trying to being the defender of the arcane. What is it exactly that you bring to the dance? Master of the Google cut and paste? Light Bearer of the legal system? Economics Internet Wizard? I'm just asking. I know what Laura brings to the dance. I just wanted to know what you bring since you opened up this can of worms.

I didn't hurl insults at you. That is you trying to get this thread locked because YOU don't think it's fair. Try to make it a violation. I only spoke the facts that way I see it. if you are insulted perhaps the truth hit you between the eyes. I wasn't trying to insult you.

A lot of folks here know who I am complete with address and phone number. Most others I would give my personal info to in a heartbeat via pm. The fact that I don't make it public to folks like you should be fairly obvious. Let me correct myself. Fairly obvious to most. The fact that you state your personal info doesn't concern me a bit. You sort of have to as you are a dealer right? I don't care that you state your personal info on these boards. Just like you shouldn't care that this thread even exists. However, there are always a few in every crowd that must shout out that they think something isn't fair and someone just might be getting an upper hand. That is really the crux of it. You don't think it's fair so you want to put a stop to it. You do this instead of not clicking the link or ignoring the obvious thread topic altogether. Why not just ignore it like I do your signature link? I have never hit your link because I don't care what it will open.

Please report this to the powers that be. That would be most apropos.

I've been advised by "the others" just to ignore you in the future like most do. That is probably sage advise and advise I will probably heed. it would have saved me a lot of typing in this case. Curses.

Respectfully.

MJ

edited for a missing apostrophe and I added a sentence or two.

Yukoncornelius1 · December 5, 2011 10:42PM

I've got several golden age comics from years ago when I collected, I have VF Mad#1 ,VF Tales of Terror Annual #1 and 2, VF Weird Science Fantasy Annual #1, VF Crime Patrol #16 (second appearance of the Crypt Keeper) and last but certainly not least I have Near mint condition Schock Illustrated #3 (there were less than 100 copies produced as EC was being shut down due to the scrutiny of congress). Needless to say I love EC comics but I did sell off some of my other ones years ago.

I also have every Planet Comic through issue 11 except #1, some very good artwork on the covers of these books. I don't know why queen Laura has to refer to anything other than coins as dreck or a waste of money but I would say that her clients buying psuedo rarites like the 1913 liberty nickel for 5 million dollars are wasting their money on a coin that was fabricated.

Yukoncornelius1 · December 5, 2011 10:52PM

Another thing I find offensive is Queen Laura's attitude towards those of us who either do not or can not spend tens of thousands of dollars on her super high grade inventory. If some of us spend $150 on a nice looking rattler ms-65 morgan dollar she labels it dreck, but if we were to go on her site and spend $20,000 on a PCGS MS-66 seated half dime she would crow that we just won the lottery. In reality we would probably not get back 50-60% of our "investment" if we sold the coin so please give me a big serving of "dreck" over a big serving of finest known full blown over retail coins.

New Legend Market Report posted

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