Every white coin before 19XX has been dipped

MidLifeCrisis · November 26, 2011 3:09AM

I'm not a big fan of extreme toners because of the probability that they are AT.

I'm even more suspicious of classic silver coins that are blast white...they have probably been dipped.

After what year do you think blast white coins are ok? That they are original even if they are blast white?

fcloud · November 26, 2011 3:12AM

There can almost always be an execption; however, somewhere in the late 19th or early 20th century would be where I would peg it.

GoldClause · November 26, 2011 3:14AM

I don't think you can have a date cut off. I think there are plenty of 19th century coins besides Morgan Dollars that are white and 100% original. Back when I was actively collecting and attending shows 20+ years ago, I remember seeing original white coins such as Liberty Seated halves.

What I will say though is, 19th century original white coins do have a different look than later coins. The best way to describe it would be that it's a "dusty" looking white, not a "blast" white.

CoinJunkie · November 26, 2011 3:26AM

<< I'm not a big fan of extreme toners because of the probability that they are AT. >>

Just to set the record straight, there are plenty of extreme toners that are known NT.
Mint set coins and bagged Morgans, to cite a couple of categories.

Carry on...

blu62vette · November 26, 2011 3:28AM

GSA Morgans tell me there can be pre-1878 coin that are still white.

Frankcoins · November 26, 2011 3:35AM

Pure silver or high silver alloys will not tarnish with plain air....nitrogen, oxgen and carbon dioxide. They WILL tarnish when the air is contaminated with sulfur
from air pollution, coal and wood fired furnaces and stoves, tobacco smokers, cooking fumes. And of course, from being handled with sweat and skin oils. So the PROPER way of storing a collection in the 1800s up until the 1940s...the coin cabinet...exposed coins to all of the above..along with whatever the wood itself gave off. Then the early "modern coin protection" things...paper 2x2 envelopes, and coin albums and holders until about 1970...caused even heavier and faster toning because of sulfur in the cardboard and paper. Silver OXIDE...silver and oxygen...can be formed under some storage conditions..almost a white powdery look...and can protect a silver coin from turning dark under many conditions. Coins bagged for a century (such as Morgan dollars -- at least the ones not touching the cloth) can be white and original, as well as some rolled coins.

So it's a lot more complicated than "before 19xx"

njcoincrank · November 26, 2011 3:36AM

I've seen rolls of seated dimes, barber dimes, standing liberty qtrs, as well as many seated dollars (along with countless Morgans) that are pure white and totally original.

To make any blanket statement about original undipped surfaces is just ignorant. And dangerous. Education is your best weapon.

NJCC

crypto79 · November 26, 2011 4:33AM

<< 
What I will say though is, 19th century original white coins do have a different look than later coins. The best way to describe it would be that it's a "dusty" looking white, not a "blast" white. >>

I have found that to be true too

WoodenJefferson · November 26, 2011 5:46AM

To me, there is distinct difference between dipped (professionally curated) and original mint skin. Just the way the coin surfaces look while rotating in a good light source is just about all you need. Something about a dipped coin just does not posses the pizazz it once had.

Also, it's easier to define on larger coins...when you get down to quarters and smaller denominations, it is a bit more difficult to ascertain.

A cut off date...hmmm, impossible to say, I've seen many, many Short set Walkers in original mint luster and lots and lots of Franklins, so anything post WWII is a safe bet, but then again, oodles and oodles of coins have been dipped post 1970's so there is no real answer...it comes down as to who handled them and when.

kaz · November 26, 2011 6:19AM

For me it comes down to probabilities, I think once you exclude Morgans and seated dollars that were bagged along with the morgans most pre-1900 bright white coins are suspect.. note I wrote "most" as there will always be exceptions.

Nic · November 26, 2011 7:26AM

I once had an original roll of 1892 dimes. All but the end coins were white. Crusty white. That said, I'm still looking for "THE" toned 1892 dime for my type set!
NJCC says it all. Buy what you like and understand. You have done well before I believe. I have never liked white.

K

veryfine · November 26, 2011 7:48AM

<< I once had an original roll of 1892 dimes. All but the end coins were white. Crusty white. That said, I'm still looking for "THE" toned 1892 dime for my type set!
NJCC says it all. Buy what you like and understand. You have done well before I believe. I have never liked white.

K >>

I'm amazed that you had an original roll of 1892 Barber dimes.

Wow!

MidLifeCrisis · November 26, 2011 8:01AM

<< I've seen rolls of seated dimes, barber dimes, standing liberty qtrs, as well as many seated dollars (along with countless Morgans) that are pure white and totally original.

To make any blanket statement about original undipped surfaces is just ignorant. And dangerous. Education is your best weapon.

NJCC >>

You might want to take a step or two down from your high horse, Mr. Dealer.

Most collectors don't have the opportunity to view hundreds or thousands of coins on a regular basis. Many don't have the time or the inclination to become as educated as you might be. Therefore, establishing a few good rules of thumb to go by when forming their collection is a good idea.

Making a blanket statement that helps establish one of those rules of thumb is not ignorance; it's practical.

This forum provides a perfect opportunity to discuss such blanket statements and rules of thumb, and this can be done without deciding that someone is ignorant for wanting to start such a discussion.

Many dealers and collectors may be very knowledgeable about the circumstances under which a white coin from the 19th Century might be original. However, determining original, undipped surfaces remains much more of an art than a science. So the storage methods and other "exceptions" that have been noted in this thread are still difficult to identify on many coins.

So rather than making your own blanket statement that "education is your best weapon", why not give us some more specific examples of factors you consider and how you determine original, undipped surfaces on blast white classic coins?

AMRC · November 26, 2011 8:07AM

El crapido shootido.

Bigrig52 · November 26, 2011 8:14AM

I always was told that no coin should be cleaned in any ways shape or form or they are not worth crap..There is one dealer i know of that clean their coins all the time and say it ok to do so but thats a dealer for ya.I went to a dealers house one day and his wife was outside and she told me to go right in and there he was with a bunch of bowls on the floor,dipping,scrubbing with a pot pad and a bowl of detergent and yes there was coins in the bowls..I shocked the hell out of him and he told me he was cleaning the rug yet his coins were all around the bowls and inside them..Then they charge outrageous prices..I just don't understand that....(NOT SAYING ALL DEALERS ARE LIKE THAT) before i get my head chopped off by some of you..

veryfine · November 26, 2011 8:40AM

<< I've seen rolls of seated dimes, barber dimes, standing liberty qtrs, as well as many seated dollars (along with countless Morgans) that are pure white and totally original.

To make any blanket statement about original undipped surfaces is just ignorant. And dangerous. Education is your best weapon.

NJCC >>

Rolls of pure white, original Seated dimes? I could be wrong, but is this possible? Paper roll storage would result in some degree of rim oxidation on these old silver dimes, would it not?

ambro51 · November 26, 2011 11:10AM

Sulfur, in it's many evil forms is the main cause of silver coins toning, tarnishing or darkening. Different areas of the country at different times in the past saw very polluted air with high sulfur particles. Some collectors store coins in beautiful oak cabinets. Some put them in jars. It's impossible to generalize about your question MLC....

Cocoinut · November 26, 2011 1:10PM

Every white coin before 19XX has been dipped

Given that any year after 1900 would be incorrect (there are probably millions of original white Morgan dollars), maybe "Every white coin before 19AD has been dipped" would be the best way to complete the sentence - or maybe not, if it developed a natural "skin".

Jim

7Jaguars · November 26, 2011 2:20PM

Au contraire on the statement about silver exposed to air even without pollution or other oxidants - O2 is quite sufficient to oxidize silver.
Rolls in 1892? When did they start rolling coins - asking because I don't know.

Blast white or wildly toned, I'm suspicious of either end of the spectrum.

rmpsrpms · November 26, 2011 2:39PM

<< 

<< I've seen rolls of seated dimes, barber dimes, standing liberty qtrs, as well as many seated dollars (along with countless Morgans) that are pure white and totally original.

To make any blanket statement about original undipped surfaces is just ignorant. And dangerous. Education is your best weapon.

NJCC >>

Rolls of pure white, original Seated dimes? I could be wrong, but is this possible? Paper roll storage would result in some degree of rim oxidation on these old silver dimes, would it not? >>

What matters is the environment the coins are stored in. A roll of coins in a cool, constant environment with reasonably low humidity (never condensing) will not tone much at all. I have opened many 50+ year old rolls of Lincoln Cents in original paper wrappers that were mint gold on the surfaces and even the rims were untoned. Rolls in safes or bank vaults can stay essentially as-minted for as long as they are not disturbed or the environment messed with.

That said, I don't have many positive comments about folks who claim handling of original rolls of coins older than around 1915, when rolls started to become the primary method of distribution. My understanding is that any coins older than this which are found in "rolls" were put in those rolls much later, likely from the bags they were distributed in.

rmpsrpms · November 26, 2011 2:42PM

<< To me, there is distinct difference between dipped (professionally curated) >>

Pushing dipping as "professional curation" is tremendously shameful. Hopefully all who read this feel the same way, and shame on anyone who does not. Dipping is cleaning and is a Numismatic sin.

Justacommeman · November 26, 2011 3:02PM

<< 

<< To me, there is distinct difference between dipped (professionally curated) >>

Pushing dipping as "professional curation" is tremendously shameful. Hopefully all who read this feel the same way, and shame on anyone who does not. Dipping is cleaning and is a Numismatic sin. >>

When the major grading services and CAC feel dipping within reason is ok it's hard to fight city hall. I don't collect "white" coins except for proofs and I don't have a dog in this fight. It is what it is.

As for the OP's statement it just isn't true. All are not. Obviously lots are. MJ

WoodenJefferson · November 26, 2011 3:08PM

<< 

<< To me, there is distinct difference between dipped (professionally curated) >>

Pushing dipping as "professional curation" is tremendously shameful. Hopefully all who read this feel the same way, and shame on anyone who does not. Dipping is cleaning and is a Numismatic sin. >>

Anybody can dip a coin, but was it dipped for a reason? Many coins have been "restored" to their original appearance by chemical means, it's not shameful when a coin is restored professionally, it's done all the time.

What needs to be stopped is mass dipping for appearance to sell to novice collectors, "looks like it just came from the Mint!"

ambro51 · November 26, 2011 10:04PM

<< Au contraire on the statement about silver exposed to air even without pollution or other oxidants - O2 is quite sufficient to oxidize silver. >>

no, that is wrong.

from Wikipedia....

"As the purity of the silver decreases, the problem of corrosion or tarnishing increases.

Chemically, silver is not very reactive—it does not react with oxygen or water at ordinary temperatures, so does not easily form a silver oxide. However, other metals in the alloy, usually copper, may react with oxygen in the air.

The black silver sulfide (Ag2S) is among the most insoluble salts in aqueous solution, a property that is exploited for separating silver ions from other positive ions.

Sodium chloride (NaCl) or common table salt is known to corrode silver-copper alloy, typically seen in silver salt shakers where corrosion appears around the holes in the top.

Several products have been developed for the purpose of polishing silver that serve to remove sulfur from the metal without damaging or warping it. Because harsh polishing and buffing can permanently damage and devalue a piece of antique silver, valuable items are typically hand-polished to preserve the unique patinas of older pieces. Techniques such as wheel polishing, which are typically performed by professional jewelers or silver repair companies, are reserved for extreme tarnish or corrosion."

7Jaguars · November 26, 2011 10:28PM

Ag2O is silver oxide and is the product of direct oxidation of elemental silver by oxygen.

coinhunters · November 26, 2011 10:42PM

<< I've seen rolls of seated dimes, barber dimes, standing liberty qtrs, as well as many seated dollars (along with countless Morgans) that are pure white and totally original.

To make any blanket statement about original undipped surfaces is just ignorant. And dangerous. Education is your best weapon.

NJCC >>

Exactly what I was going to say. Thank you.

ambro51 · November 26, 2011 11:22PM

<< Ag2O is silver oxide and is the product of direct oxidation of elemental silver by oxygen. >>

.......uhhhh chemistry 101. Take a few moments and let google be your friend and tell you how silver oxide IS formed.

MidLifeCrisis · November 26, 2011 11:22PM

<< 

<< I've seen rolls of seated dimes, barber dimes, standing liberty qtrs, as well as many seated dollars (along with countless Morgans) that are pure white and totally original.

To make any blanket statement about original undipped surfaces is just ignorant. And dangerous. Education is your best weapon.

NJCC >>

Exactly what I was going to say. Thank you. >>

Then I refer you to the response I posted earlier in this thread.

ambro51 · November 26, 2011 11:32PM

Middie, Buddy....this thread is like a big black dog spinning around chasing its tail

MidLifeCrisis · November 26, 2011 11:42PM

<< Middie, Buddy....this thread is like a big black dog spinning around chasing its tail

>>

Yes, but a big black dog spinning around chasing its tail is pretty entertaining!

TwoSides2aCoin · November 26, 2011 11:43PM

Next thread : Numismatic sins and how to achieve perfection through Diptism.

I saved an Ike Proof through Diptism yesterday

Confession 101

TwoSides2aCoin · November 26, 2011 11:44PM

'78 S, to be specific.

ricko · November 27, 2011 12:03AM

There are many preserved 'white' coins that have not been dipped.... many do have a 'cloudy' appearance after many years. Dipping, or curation, or restoring (whatever term is preferred), is only a bad thing in the eyes of contemporary collectors (for the most part). This fascination with originality is an obsession with some collectors - thereby the use of the word 'sin'...when obviously it is neither sinful nor illegal. Let those who desire such, collect that way, for others, it may matter not. Do not attempt to dictate to others when you, yourself, do not want to be dictated to. Cheers, RickO

RedTiger · November 27, 2011 12:15AM

<< 

<< One day the sun will burn out and every living creature on earth will die.

Happy holidays! >>

in 120 years every living human on the planet will be dead and gone, no exceptions, replaced by humans trained by 2cd and 3rd generations from now. They'll just be living in the same buildings and promoting the same ideas. It's just the way things are, I dont think it's bad, it's just the way things are.

coins are a way of handshaking with people on the street (if you collect my drek) from a few hundred years ago. that's why I love the hobby! >>

Not true on the 120. Life expectancy for the very wealthy that can afford the best health care and that take care of themselves, is currently increasing about 3 months for every year that passes. There are kids alive today that will almost certainly live to 150 or even 200 years old. Extreme tech may be involved, but they will do it, at least a few of the wealthy with good genes and good health will. Think back to Revolutionary War times, when average folks died at age 30 and wealthy folks such as the some of the founding fathers lived to 70 and beyond. So it will be in the next century. Average Americans may stretch it to 90 for an average, if they stop eating so much, and some of the wealthy and healthy will likely make 150 or even 200 if they are interested in doing so.

Whatever the case, it is a dark thread. Coins are a hobby. Enjoy the hobby. The soapbox stuff is tiresome and ineffective. Does anyone think this thread or anyone's opinion on a forum, will stop a single coin doc from doing his/her alterations? Perhaps one or two newbies might be swayed, but the docs are doing most of the damage and raking in most of the profits. Who is going to start a thread about the tons of not so attractive original looking coins and how they need homes too? What about all the coins that have already been through the clinic? The docs are meeting a demand for better looking coins. The look might be faux original retoned, or nice looking accelerated toning, or professional looking blast white silver, or shiny gold. All are in demand.

MidLifeCrisis · November 27, 2011 12:20AM

RedTiger - um, wrong thread?

AngryTurtle · November 27, 2011 12:23AM

Anyone who make absolute statements is an idiot.

Oh, wait,

D'oh!

rmpsrpms · November 27, 2011 12:24AM

<< There are many preserved 'white' coins that have not been dipped.... many do have a 'cloudy' appearance after many years. Dipping, or curation, or restoring (whatever term is preferred), is only a bad thing in the eyes of contemporary collectors (for the most part). This fascination with originality is an obsession with some collectors - thereby the use of the word 'sin'...when obviously it is neither sinful nor illegal. Let those who desire such, collect that way, for others, it may matter not. Do not attempt to dictate to others when you, yourself, do not want to be dictated to. Cheers, RickO >>

Ahh, but I AM being dictated to by the services that are encouraging this mass destruction of our numismatic heritage for short term profit. What % of original, uncleaned (surfaces not messed with) US coins from the early 20th century and before do you suppose are still left for collectors to preserve for future generations?

I am also curious if anyone knows if the "sniffer" is being used, or did they figure out that it will identify most every coin as being messed with?

TwoSides2aCoin · November 27, 2011 12:27AM

Do you mean completely white ?

TwoSides2aCoin · November 27, 2011 12:43AM

Every one ? Honest to God ? I can't believe this.

Is there an equation to find X ?

rmpsrpms · November 27, 2011 1:52AM

So here's the question: If it were possible for the "sniffer" to detect dipping (it may or may not be) and dipped coins were noted on the holder, would they still be market acceptable? If the answer is "NO" (which of course it is) then this means market acceptability is simply a guise for sophisticates to trade coins with a "wink and a nod" between themselves, and to less sophisticated buyers for profit.

TwoSides2aCoin · November 27, 2011 1:57AM

Dipped coins are market acceptable. It's that some are more desireable after the dip and some are less desireable.

rmpsrpms · November 27, 2011 2:17AM

<< Dipped coins are market acceptable >>

Yes, I've heard the Mantra on every thread regarding dipping.

Dipped coins are market acceptable
Dipped coins are market acceptable
Dipped coins are market acceptable
Dipped coins are market acceptable
Dipped coins are market acceptable
Dipped coins are market acceptable
Dipped coins are market acceptable
Dipped coins are market acceptable
Dipped coins are market acceptable
Dipped coins are market acceptable
Dipped coins are market acceptable
Dipped coins are market acceptable
Dipped coins are market acceptable
Dipped coins are market acceptable
Dipped coins are market acceptable
Until they are not

ricko · November 27, 2011 2:46AM

If you do not like dipped coins, do not dip them or buy them... very simple. As to your doubts about the 'sniffer', investigate the technology, you will be surprised... this is not black magic, it is hard science. Cheers, RickO

rmpsrpms · November 27, 2011 2:59AM

<< If you do not like dipped coins, do not dip them or buy them... very simple. As to your doubts about the 'sniffer', investigate the technology, you will be surprised... this is not black magic, it is hard science. Cheers, RickO >>

I'm fully aware of the technologies used for surface analysis so have no doubt they can be used to detect surface contamination on coins. Most likely though is that they are too good. Imagine how much a coin from the mid-19th century has gone through. Dust, airborne oils and other contaminants, etc accumulate on the surface over time. All it takes is a light coating of these things to trigger the sniffer to give a false positive. What about oils used on the dies during the minting process? Open a mint roll of Cents from the middle-20th, look at the coins under 30X magnification, and you will be amazed at what you see. My expectation is that in order for the sniffer to be truly effective, every coin will need to go through a rinse of some sort to remove surface organic contaminants. Acetone, followed by Denatured alcohol, followed by a DI water rinse would remove most of the contaminants that would trigger the sniffer. It won't remove the traces of dipping solution that still remains in amalgam with the converted surface toning, so the sniffer will likely still pick up a full-surface dipping solution signal.

How many of you would allow your coins to be thoroughly rinsed to remove all dust, dirt, and organic contaminants as part of the grading process in order to allow a certification that the coin has original surfaces?

julie43 · November 27, 2011 3:00AM

<< Pure silver or high silver alloys will not tarnish with plain air....nitrogen, oxgen and carbon dioxide. They WILL tarnish when the air is contaminated with sulfur
from air pollution, coal and wood fired furnaces and stoves, tobacco smokers, cooking fumes. And of course, from being handled with sweat and skin oils. So the PROPER way of storing a collection in the 1800s up until the 1940s...the coin cabinet...exposed coins to all of the above..along with whatever the wood itself gave off. Then the early "modern coin protection" things...paper 2x2 envelopes, and coin albums and holders until about 1970...caused even heavier and faster toning because of sulfur in the cardboard and paper. Silver OXIDE...silver and oxygen...can be formed under some storage conditions..almost a white powdery look...and can protect a silver coin from turning dark under many conditions. Coins bagged for a century (such as Morgan dollars -- at least the ones not touching the cloth) can be white and original, as well as some rolled coins.

So it's a lot more complicated than "before 19xx" >>

I have noticed that the cleanest white coins are the ones I dig out of the ground. just say'n

TwoSides2aCoin · November 27, 2011 3:30AM

<< 

<< Dipped coins are market acceptable >>

Yes, I've heard the Mantra on every thread regarding dipping.

Dipped coins are market acceptable
.... market acceptable
Until they are not >>

Okay, let me explain simply. Two weeks ago, Mr L. comes to shop with coin in PCGS holder. He's seeking offers around town. He sells coin to me after begrudgingly carrying on about paying 1200 for the coin and dealers around town were only offering a thousand or so.

Upon doing due diligence I found the coin had indeed sold at Heritage last Feb. for $1200.+
Price Guide has it's value at this level, in this particular grade It's highly collectible and a desireable coin. It cost four figures. It's been dipped. I don't particularly care for the looks of the coin. Tell me when it's not market acceptable.

Even as I sympathized with the seller and told him it's not my fault he paid as much as he did, the coin was only worth so much to me. And thankfully, the dealers in my town are fair. So I would like to know what you mean regarding these coins when you say "Until they're not" (market acceptable) :

Oh, and please understand, I'm on your side and share the same sentiment with regard to the "dip/strip/flip" But I happen to see past the sentiment and try to stick with the coinfacts and marketfacts.

rmpsrpms · November 27, 2011 4:35AM

<< ...So I would like to know what you mean regarding these coins when you say "Until they're not" (market acceptable) >>

Really it all comes down to information and disclosure of that information. If the grading services identified dipped coins on the holder, would they sell for as much as non-dipped coins? Or alternatively, if the services certified that a coin had "original surfaces", would coins not identified as such be as valuable as "OS" coins? All it will take is a major grading company to step up and provide these simple identifications and market acceptability of dipped coins will disappear in a flash.

However, I don't see this happening voluntarily with any of the major services. They all make too much money on the dip and flip crowd and disclosure such as this would compromise their business model. So the winks and nods will continue until perhaps a low-tier service arises that will do such a certification, it catches on, and the majors are forced to follow.

shish · November 27, 2011 6:16AM

I agree that "Really it all comes down to information and disclosure of that information." One major problem I see is determining an acceptable definition of dipped versus original coins. Many coins have been lightly dipped, naturally re-toned, and have retained most of their original luster. I'm convinced that a consensus on the originality of most coins surfaces could be reached, but there are many coins that would be extremely difficult for the experts to agree on. It's not always black or white; literally there are many shades of gray.

ricko · November 27, 2011 6:45AM

And you will never know if a coin has been dipped in acetone.....Cheers, RickO

breakdown · November 27, 2011 10:12AM

<< 

<< I've seen rolls of seated dimes, barber dimes, standing liberty qtrs, as well as many seated dollars (along with countless Morgans) that are pure white and totally original.

To make any blanket statement about original undipped surfaces is just ignorant. And dangerous. Education is your best weapon.

NJCC >>

You might want to take a step or two down from your high horse, Mr. Dealer.

Most collectors don't have the opportunity to view hundreds or thousands of coins on a regular basis. Many don't have the time or the inclination to become as educated as you might be. Therefore, establishing a few good rules of thumb to go by when forming their collection is a good idea.

Making a blanket statement that helps establish one of those rules of thumb is not ignorance; it's practical.

This forum provides a perfect opportunity to discuss such blanket statements and rules of thumb, and this can be done without deciding that someone is ignorant for wanting to start such a discussion.

Many dealers and collectors may be very knowledgeable about the circumstances under which a white coin from the 19th Century might be original. However, determining original, undipped surfaces remains much more of an art than a science. So the storage methods and other "exceptions" that have been noted in this thread are still difficult to identify on many coins.
So rather than making your own blanket statement that "education is your best weapon", why not give us some more specific examples of factors you consider and how you determine original, undipped surfaces on blast white classic coins? >>

It seems to me uncalled for to say NJCC's statement was from a high horse. Just the truth, inconvenient as it may be. The OP question seeks a shortcut or "rule of thumb" for something that does not lend itself to such simple rules. For some things, such shortcuts are more trouble than help.

njcoincrank · November 27, 2011 10:33AM

Midlifecrisis,

Sorry if you think I ride around on a high horse. I think my history of educating collectors stands on it's own merit. Perhaps you might want to look up the definition of ignorance. It isn't a bad word. It simply means lack of knowledge.

You might want to look into the ANA's summer seminars. They provide a wealth of information in a variety of classes and subjects.

NJCC

Every white coin before 19XX has been dipped

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