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Forum Member threatening to SUE me over coin photography services, advice needed.
coinkid855
Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭
This is long, but insane. Please read, you won't be disappointed.
Now, I'm not going to out anyone, because it's against the rules. I'm just going to present the entire situation, and let you guys decide. A particular forum member purchased a large lot of coins that he wanted imaged, and he needed them fast. He talked to both Todd and I, and we both agreed to substantially lower our prices to $5 a coin because of the volume. Additionally, I had some of my insurance moved after a lot of calls to Hugh Wood and the purchase of a new safe to make this member happy. The member agreed to go with me because I promised a fast turn around, and he had this to say about my images:
"Holy cow, what pics! May I ask if you take pics of other people's coins for a fee? If so, please send my your fee structure.:
Fats forward to yesterday. I drove to pick up the coins before class so I could get to work on them afterwards. At around 6, I started imaging. I did all of his Lincolns first, as he requested. 43 of them to be exact. Here's an example of the work, made much smaller so he doesn't try to take it.
Apparently, my images didn't have enough pop, and what he wanted was for me to do ADDITIONAL shots with the coins tilted at an angle, which i simply don't do. I tried some axial lighting, and that came out ok, but it was not worth the extra time, as most of their coins would not benefit from the technique. He kept claiming he wanted me to capture the "glow" of the toned Lincolns:
"gorgeous!
On the neon toners, can you catch the "glow/luster" or is it a choice between color and luster? Just wondering."
I told him it's pretty much a trade-off. But they of course knew better than me, the professional photographer, and kept asking for me to shoot the coin at an angle. I calmly explained that it was impossible to do with a macro lens, and yet they still pushed the issue:
"Greattoning does both types of shots...he tilts, he uses direct sunlight and florescent lights, as needed to capture each coin.
So now I'm thinking, great, what am i going to do to please this person? Instead of continuing with the Lincolns, I moved on to his Morgans and other silver coins. I sent him 3 Morgan shots, to which they replied:
"Yes, these Morgans are great. But if we can't agree on the lustrous coins, do you want to continue with the rest of the batch at current pricing?"
I would be fine with that scenario, especially considering what happened next.
After so much of his complaining, I decided to try to do a type of imaging I just don't do. So I go ahead and dismount my camera from my copy stand and try to shoot the coins like he wants, from an angle. Here's the result:
Terrible. Definitley not an image I want to stick my name on. I'm much happier with my earlier images, but they just won't listen. I straight up tell them I am physically not ABLE to take the shots they want, and yet they go on and on, until this:
"At this point, I would like to have my coins back and not purchase any pictures. They just won't do for me."
Now I'm ticked. Who does this guy think he is? I spent SIX hours working, and another few shooting PMs back and forth, and now he doesn't want to pay, even though he TOLD me, in writing, that he liked many of my images I did for him? Now he's saying things like:
"You simply aren't delivering the service I have asked you for. You freely admit the shots I want are much less difficult and less quality than you already provide. That is not unreasonable. Why not try to salvage the deal and take the shots I need for the extra $?"
Trying to throw extra "money" at me, even though he's refusing to pay on the other part of the deal. I completed 23 images for him, ALL non-Lincolns and ones he said he liked, and he refuses to pay. My folder for his work is over 2 GB! Now he's threatening to SUE if I don't send the coins back on MY DIME WITH $50 for his shipping to me. REDICULOUS!!!
Please let me know your thoughts, forum, as I'm totally at a loss for words. I took this job in good faith and I would have had his coins on the way back to him TODAY. THAT'S SERVICE.
So, what should I do?
-Paul
Now, I'm not going to out anyone, because it's against the rules. I'm just going to present the entire situation, and let you guys decide. A particular forum member purchased a large lot of coins that he wanted imaged, and he needed them fast. He talked to both Todd and I, and we both agreed to substantially lower our prices to $5 a coin because of the volume. Additionally, I had some of my insurance moved after a lot of calls to Hugh Wood and the purchase of a new safe to make this member happy. The member agreed to go with me because I promised a fast turn around, and he had this to say about my images:
"Holy cow, what pics! May I ask if you take pics of other people's coins for a fee? If so, please send my your fee structure.:
Fats forward to yesterday. I drove to pick up the coins before class so I could get to work on them afterwards. At around 6, I started imaging. I did all of his Lincolns first, as he requested. 43 of them to be exact. Here's an example of the work, made much smaller so he doesn't try to take it.
Apparently, my images didn't have enough pop, and what he wanted was for me to do ADDITIONAL shots with the coins tilted at an angle, which i simply don't do. I tried some axial lighting, and that came out ok, but it was not worth the extra time, as most of their coins would not benefit from the technique. He kept claiming he wanted me to capture the "glow" of the toned Lincolns:
"gorgeous!
On the neon toners, can you catch the "glow/luster" or is it a choice between color and luster? Just wondering."
I told him it's pretty much a trade-off. But they of course knew better than me, the professional photographer, and kept asking for me to shoot the coin at an angle. I calmly explained that it was impossible to do with a macro lens, and yet they still pushed the issue:
"Greattoning does both types of shots...he tilts, he uses direct sunlight and florescent lights, as needed to capture each coin.
So now I'm thinking, great, what am i going to do to please this person? Instead of continuing with the Lincolns, I moved on to his Morgans and other silver coins. I sent him 3 Morgan shots, to which they replied:
"Yes, these Morgans are great. But if we can't agree on the lustrous coins, do you want to continue with the rest of the batch at current pricing?"
I would be fine with that scenario, especially considering what happened next.
After so much of his complaining, I decided to try to do a type of imaging I just don't do. So I go ahead and dismount my camera from my copy stand and try to shoot the coins like he wants, from an angle. Here's the result:
Terrible. Definitley not an image I want to stick my name on. I'm much happier with my earlier images, but they just won't listen. I straight up tell them I am physically not ABLE to take the shots they want, and yet they go on and on, until this:
"At this point, I would like to have my coins back and not purchase any pictures. They just won't do for me."
Now I'm ticked. Who does this guy think he is? I spent SIX hours working, and another few shooting PMs back and forth, and now he doesn't want to pay, even though he TOLD me, in writing, that he liked many of my images I did for him? Now he's saying things like:
"You simply aren't delivering the service I have asked you for. You freely admit the shots I want are much less difficult and less quality than you already provide. That is not unreasonable. Why not try to salvage the deal and take the shots I need for the extra $?"
Trying to throw extra "money" at me, even though he's refusing to pay on the other part of the deal. I completed 23 images for him, ALL non-Lincolns and ones he said he liked, and he refuses to pay. My folder for his work is over 2 GB! Now he's threatening to SUE if I don't send the coins back on MY DIME WITH $50 for his shipping to me. REDICULOUS!!!
Please let me know your thoughts, forum, as I'm totally at a loss for words. I took this job in good faith and I would have had his coins on the way back to him TODAY. THAT'S SERVICE.
So, what should I do?
-Paul
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This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Paul,that's a great pic of the 1958-D.
-Paul
Sorry, this sounds stressy to say the least. I can only tip my hat to you for not outting the forum member yet. Is it likely that the said member will be reading this post? Maybe they'll realize how unreasonable they're being.
Either let him drive over to pick them up or deliver them yourself.
Then don't do business with him again and chalk this up to experience.
Next time, get at least 1/2 your money up front.
<< <i>You drove over to pick up the coins, right?
Either let him drive over to pick them up or deliver them yourself.
Then don't do business with him again and chalk this up to experience.
Next time, get at least 1/2 your money up front. >>
Oh no. He shipped them to me. He wants me to pay the $50 return shipping AND include a $50 check for his shipping to me. He must be off his rocker.
-Paul
Let me know how it works because I been good this year and santa is making his rounds soon.
Based on his comparison, it sounds to me like he wants juiced photos and was just not going to be happy with your natural rendition.
Sounds like he's already done that. Touche'
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>I would not return his coins unless he pays you for your services. >>
That pretty much sums up what every person I PM''d or called for advice told me. It's insane, I'm only asking for the $115 for the 23 images I completed editing for, not the other FIFTY coins I imaged.
-Paul
<< <i>Tilt and shift lens, maybe?
Let me know how it works because I been good this year and santa is making his rounds soon. >>
I talked to Todd about it, and he said he used one and didn't like it. Plus it gives the same look as axial lighting does, which I tried and he actually said he liked, but then still wanted me to do the tilted shots....
-Paul
<< <i>I would not return his coins unless he pays you for your services. >>
<< <i>Priceless POS... Threaten to sue a kid that's in college for 23 x $5 = $105
It's actually $115. That extra ten bucks must have been what pushed him over the edge....But my thoughts exactly.
-Paul
Emotion aside ... and assuming your facts are the real facts (no offense intended) ...
1. If you did not agree in advance on who is responsible for return shipping charges, then send the coins back to him on your dime. Otherwise wait for his payment, as agreed previously.
2. Accept that you had an opportunity to spend 6 hours continuing to hone your craft.
3. Realize that sometimes things aren't fair.
4. Realize some people, at times, are unreasonable.
5. Create an agreement for future use that clearly lays out expectations (of course, you may already have this)
6. Let him sue you. He will do what he wants to do anyway. Some people are just unbalanced.
7. Since you are a professional and have a business, turn his account over to a debt collection agency. He may threaten to sue you, but once his account goes to collection, it is HIS credit rating that becomes impaired.
8. Move on ... this ain't life or death stuff.
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>
<< <i>I would not return his coins unless he pays you for your services. >>
That pretty much sums up what every person I PM''d or called for advice told me. It's insane, I'm only asking for the $115 for the 23 images I completed editing for, not the other FIFTY coins I imaged.
-Paul >>
I understand that your time is not free. I can understand that you want the money, I really can. But at this point you've made a thread about this, insinuated that the member (who is going to read this) would steal your image if you posted a larger version. Called them out (though not by name) for being unreasonable. And now you're saying everyone is telling you to hold his collection hostage over 115 dollars. Boy 'o boy. You probably just picked up a bitter enemy over a fairly small bit of time/money...
EDIT: Oh, he wants you come come 100 dollars out of pocket on all of the shipping? No -- I think this is where I would probably draw the line and tell the guy it's not gonna happen. It's one thing to "break up" early in a relationship. It's another to have pay alimony on a fling
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<< <i>
<< <i>I would not return his coins unless he pays you for your services. >>
That pretty much sums up what every person I PM''d or called for advice told me. It's insane, I'm only asking for the $115 for the 23 images I completed editing for, not the other FIFTY coins I imaged.
-Paul >>
I understand that your time is not free. I can understand that you want the money, I really can. But at this point you've made a thread about this, insinuated that the member (who is going to read this) would steal your image if you posted a larger version. Called them out (though not by name) for being unreasonable. And now you're saying everyone is telling you to hold his collection hostage over 115 dollars. Boy 'o boy. You probably just picked up a bitter enemy over a fairly small bit of time/money... >>
Maybe so, but I'm sorry, I'm a college student. I don't have an extra $50 to waste sending his coins back. I jumped through flaming hoops for this guy, and he's trying to screw me over, even after he told me he liked the non-Lincoln pictures (and two of the Lincolns).
-Paul
<< <i>In the original arrangement, who is gonna to pay the return shipping? >>
From a PM to me:
Lol...no! Split it? You are too kind but that is just a cost of MY doing business. I pay for shipping and insurance both ways. That's the deal.
This was after I offered to split the shipping with him because my newly added insurance didn't cover it for shipping. Again, jumping through hoops to give the best customer service possible, that's just what i do.
-Paul
<< <i>Priceless POS... Threaten to sue a kid that's in college for 23 x $5 = $105
Exactly my thought, he is threatening to sue you, for how much?
By the by, nice shot of that Lincoln, it says a lot about the person you are dealing with.
<< <i>Oh no. He shipped them to me. He wants me to pay the $50 return shipping AND include a $50 check for his shipping to me. He must be off his rocker. >>
Wow this just gets crazier by the minute!
I'd be proud to have you photograph some of my coins as I do think you get the color and 'pop' your one customer seems to think is missing.
Sorry for the pain he's causing. I suppose if he is treating you this poorly then it is partly a personality defect and I'd have to imagine the people in his life put up with what you
are forced to deal with today- everyday.
<< <i>
<< <i>Oh no. He shipped them to me. He wants me to pay the $50 return shipping AND include a $50 check for his shipping to me. He must be off his rocker. >>
Wow this just gets crazier by the minute!
Tell me about it! He's literally reneging on EVERY possible portion of our deal.
-Paul
Explain to him before sending what he should expect to receive and that it will be arriving COD, as you expect to be compensated for your services according to your agreement. And that if he wants the images of the other coins you photographed he should contact you as you'd be willing to provide those photos as originally agreed for $5 per coin, however, payment will be expected in advance of forwarding those images.
<< <i>
Now, I'm not going to out anyone, because it's against the rules. >>
Where in the rules does it say that?? I can't seem to find it.
<< <i>
<< <i>You drove over to pick up the coins, right?
Either let him drive over to pick them up or deliver them yourself.
Then don't do business with him again and chalk this up to experience.
Next time, get at least 1/2 your money up front. >>
Oh no. He shipped them to me. He wants me to pay the $50 return shipping AND include a $50 check for his shipping to me. He must be off his rocker.
-Paul >>
I agree. That's nutz!
I forgot to add:
Send him his coins back. Take him off your customers list. Block his PM's. Block his eMails. Keep your $50 and invite him to sue you for it.
The name is LEE!
Just send the coins back, I'll pay the shipping if he refuses.
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<< <i>
Now, I'm not going to out anyone, because it's against the rules. >>
Where in the rules does it say that?? I can't seem to find it. >>
Don made a post recently about it.
-Paul
<< <i>Just send the coins back, I'll pay the shipping if he refuses. >>
^- this member is classy.
<< <i>The images are just fine. he should be paying for them. However if he is just not happy with them I would take down the images from any site they were on until he pays. Then i would ship the coins back. I understand the urge to hold the coins for payment, but that is the wrong thing to do. It will make things nasty. Sounds like the owner may be in a pinch if he needed everything so quickly.
Just send the coins back, I'll pay the shipping if he refuses. >>
Now that's a classy professional. Thanks Todd, i appreciate it. But I don't think somebody else should suffer because of this guy.
-Paul
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<< <i>The images are just fine. he should be paying for them. However if he is just not happy with them I would take down the images from any site they were on until he pays. Then i would ship the coins back. I understand the urge to hold the coins for payment, but that is the wrong thing to do. It will make things nasty. Sounds like the owner may be in a pinch if he needed everything so quickly.
Just send the coins back, I'll pay the shipping if he refuses. >>
Now that's a classy professional. Thanks Todd, i appreciate it. But I don't think somebody else should suffer because of this guy.
-Paul >>
As a photog I understand the stress this causes and it i just not worth it. You need to limit your suffering at this point.
Coinkid shared some of the images with me last night, there was no problem with them and in my opinion the coins would have sold very well with the images. He also turned them around in a day/same day. That is a lot of effort.
I'll opt to pay for the 23 coins you imaged if he refuses... Just PM me and I'll send you a check!
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat
<< <i>Paul-
Emotion aside ... and assuming your facts are the real facts (no offense intended) ...
1. If you did not agree in advance on who is responsible for return shipping charges, then send the coins back to him on your dime. Otherwise wait for his payment, as agreed previously.
2. Accept that you had an opportunity to spend 6 hours continuing to hone your craft.
3. Realize that sometimes things aren't fair.
4. Realize some people, at times, are unreasonable.
5. Create an agreement for future use that clearly lays out expectations (of course, you may already have this)
6. Let him sue you. He will do what he wants to do anyway. Some people are just unbalanced.
7. Since you are a professional and have a business, turn his account over to a debt collection agency. He may threaten to sue you, but once his account goes to collection, it is HIS credit rating that becomes impaired.
8. Move on ... this ain't life or death stuff.
Lane >>
Scratch my pevious post. I like Nuimber 7!
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Hey guys, I forgot to include the terrible off-angle shots I was getting. Here's one:
-Paul >>
am in agreement with all you said and are struggling with, but want to add one point.
In the off angle shot, I am sure you do not like it, as it requires part of the coin to be out of focus. This is not a an error, it's a fact. That is a trade off, to get that view of this color. If that made him happy, why not. It is for his specific purpose. ? just a thought.
<< <i>Just send the coins back, I'll pay the shipping if he refuses. >>
I'll opt to pay for the 23 coins you imaged if he refuses... Just PM me and I'll send you a check! >>
Ok you now know I will cover shipping, Broadstruck will cover payment of the 23 coins. Send them back today. I will bet Broadstruck and I will each chip in an extra 10 bucks beer money to relax tonight.
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<< <i>
Now, I'm not going to out anyone, because it's against the rules. >>
Where in the rules does it say that?? I can't seem to find it. >>
Look Here.
The name is LEE!
Seriously.
<< <i>Let that Bozo know that you are putting a lien on his coins until he pays in full, plus a bit extra for your pain and suffering.
Seriously. >>
Again, I understand the urge to do so but that is a bad idea.
<< <i>The good thing about being sued is you get your day in court. >>
Sadly, in most cases, it is many days.
And, even if you win- you loose.
Some of life's lessons cost more than others but all are of value.
This is why most people providing a service such as yours eventually have a very long a** covering contract that has to be signed before work is undertaken.
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<< <i>Let that Bozo know that you are putting a lien on his coins until he pays in full, plus a bit extra for your pain and suffering.
Seriously. >>
Again, I understand the urge to do so but that is a bad idea. >>
You're a great influence, Todd. I was seriously joshing. See you in Houston.
<< <i>In the off angle shot, I am sure you do not like it, as it requires part of the coin to be out of focus. This is not a an error, it's a fact. >>
It's an erroneous fact. It depends on the angle and the depth of field of the capture (which is a function of aperture, focal length, and subject distance). Angled shots do not necessarily include out of focus areas on the coin.
Coinkid' ... you do excellent work, and to be able to turn around multiple professional quality images at all, much less in a day, is no easy feat
Like the other Todd said though, you need to limit the suffering at this point
Just send the coins back, I'll pay the shipping if he refuses.
I'd gladly contribute to have the coins shipped back as well ... Broadstruck or Todd, let me know
And somebody PM me with who this tool is
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242