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BST anywhere - things to do and things to avoid; Red flags and how to ID them. ETC.
magikbilly
Posts: 6,780 ✭
There is a thread about the pros and cons of increased activity and newcomers in the BST forum. I think a thread about the protocols, procedures, practices and safeguards of buying and selling "a coin" would be a good thing. Scamming is up across the board from what I have seen. Down to return polices, shipping, insurance, protection of identity and accounts - it should all be discussed. It may have been before, but look at the threads these last months. From reading the responses there is a wide spectrum of how some people handle the same situations. This discussion seems needed. Can't hurt. Even a simple list of "things not to do" would appear to be very useful. So, I started this thread. It is easier than getting torches and pitchforks and all that.
I do not claim to know this stuff - I can count my steady customers on one hand, although they are in a few countries. Most I know for 5 to 10 years. There is established trust, but these folks are friends. And my areas are very tight - way smaller then coins. Everyone knows everyone more or less and problems and fraud are rampant even there. Cunard and White Star Line memorabilia - increased forgeries and bogus fixtures and fittings are making the rounds of auction houses (...but...but it sold by XXXXXXX and they are the top auction house in the world so its gotta be real, right? It was on the news! WRONG) and online venues too. Anyway, many of you are experienced dealers - lets share the wealth of knowledge you have all accumulated in your interactions buying and selling for our mutual protection and advancement too.
Eric
Edit to add: A list of red flags seems a good place to start, along with basic buy/sell procedures and safeguards.
I do not claim to know this stuff - I can count my steady customers on one hand, although they are in a few countries. Most I know for 5 to 10 years. There is established trust, but these folks are friends. And my areas are very tight - way smaller then coins. Everyone knows everyone more or less and problems and fraud are rampant even there. Cunard and White Star Line memorabilia - increased forgeries and bogus fixtures and fittings are making the rounds of auction houses (...but...but it sold by XXXXXXX and they are the top auction house in the world so its gotta be real, right? It was on the news! WRONG) and online venues too. Anyway, many of you are experienced dealers - lets share the wealth of knowledge you have all accumulated in your interactions buying and selling for our mutual protection and advancement too.
Eric
Edit to add: A list of red flags seems a good place to start, along with basic buy/sell procedures and safeguards.
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1. A moral imperative to arrive at a mutually satisfying transaction.
2. If their are to be any restrictions on the transaction, they should be clearly
spelled out in advance.
3.As difficult as it may be at times, one must try to eliminate personal animosity from
what is a basically business transaction.
4. In dealing with a fellow forum member,there is the implied satisfaction guaranteed
even if not stated. This is a grave mistake and probably happens on a regular basis.
5. It is possible and probable that the decent and honorable people get into a dispute when
one or both get their hackles raised in a transaction over generally trivial differences. I one had a transaction where
I purchased a coins and while it met the description of the sale, it just did not fit into my collection. The dealer
offered to lower the price but I was not seeking a cheaper price only a chance to return the coin. In counter, I
offered the seller a 10% restocking fee and as a good faith move sent a positive feed back first.The matter was
resolved and life moved on.
6. While difficult, one must try to put them selves in the others shoes and attempt to come up with a solution, while not perfect,
that resolves the matter in a livable manner.
7. A number of issues can be raised in a dispute between two parties. Legal, moral, personality and machismo. I always recommend to keep
the testosterone levels low and the mind, fully operationally and open.
8. Remember, If specific transaction criteria are not specifically listed or discussed and agreed to, then the do not exist.
No posts on the US Coin Forum. If they are not operating over here, I avoid them over there. This has not been foolproof, but anyone who spends enough time and effort cultivating relationships over here, meeting fellow collectors at coin shows, having two degrees of separation from Longacre, etc., is not going to tarnish their rep by screwing people over on the BST.
Thanks! That is just the sort of info I was hoping to see posted. The WISE and eloquent words of the Great Bear are an added bonus!
Best wishes,
Eric
<< <i>My #1 red flag:
No posts on the US Coin Forum. If they are not operating over here, I avoid them over there. This has not been foolproof, but anyone who spends enough time and effort cultivating relationships over here, meeting fellow collectors at coin shows, having two degrees of separation from Longacre, etc., is not going to tarnish their rep by screwing people over on the BST. >>
And watch out for buyers with no track record.
<< <i>I just did a deal with "guysmiling", he had I think four posts at the time. NO PROBLEMS. >>
All good advice so far. I too did a deal with a forum lurker who ended up being a well respected dealer. I never would have known if I didn't check references.
A functioning search feature is useful too
<< <i>I just did a deal with "guysmiling", he had I think four posts at the time. NO PROBLEMS. >>
Were you the buyer or the seller? Not every new member with no track record is dishonest but would you really send a new member with very low feedback several hundred dollars for a coin without getting references?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I was the Seller, for around Two hundred bucks. I would advise newbies to use a full name in the PM's and even a phone number. >>
How can you go wrong selling to a new member if you don't ship until the check clears? It's buying an expensive coin from a new member that can be dangerous---you could send him the money and then he could just disappear.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I am a relatively newcomer, but have had
many successful transactions with
boardmembers.
You are welcome
Best wishes,
Eric
Should there be some minimum criterion for "outing" someone here? We have all seen it - and we have seen it unwarranted I think. Just like how a good dealers rep will rise to the top over time and his actions will speak, sometimes a bad notice will follow someone and it is not deserved. I have seen people decide not to do business with others because of threads that were started as PSA and end in other ways. Maybe that's good maybe that's bad. But, how can we not pull that trigger early?
Eric
<< <i>Hi,
Should there be some minimum criterion for "outing" someone here? We have all seen it - and we have seen it unwarranted I think. Just like how a good dealers rep will rise to the top over time and his actions will speak, sometimes a bad notice will follow someone and it is not deserved. I have seen people decide not to do business with others because of threads that were started as PSA and end in other ways. Maybe that's good maybe that's bad. But, how can we not pull that trigger early?
Eric >>
Unpoliceable.
The forum is run by PCGS but is largely unmoderated. It is too easy for any person to create an ID and come on here and, at any time, post an "outing" or anything. There is no way PCGS would want to review every post before allowing it to show up, in all the forums, nor would members want that.
I do agree there has been a lot of unwarranted outtings and only a few times have the OPs been back around to apologize. Most of the time they just slink off and pretend it didn't happen and that they didn't screw with someone's rep unjustly (in the PM forums this happened just a few weeks back...and the person likely still feels they were right, but they editted almost all of their postings because member after member was telling them they were wrong).
However, that said, it is something that just has to live within the norms of posters here and, thankfully, I think the vast majority are worthwhile folks who do try to do the right thing....just some have too quick of a fuse and don't look at all the information first.
That said, how to use a BST type of thing vastly varies depending whether you are seller or buyer.
I bought some gold coins from a poster I didn't recognize. Not a high profile person. I used paypal. Regardless, the seller told me he wanted to send the coins to me before I paid and then decide to return them or buy them at that point.
That's one way to be safe. Use paypal (not gift). And, receive merchandise before paying is another. Both sides have to be ok though.
Because of the seller's willingness and offer to transact like that, I added in payment for 50% of the paypal fees so he didn't take the full hit.
Another thing is to see if the deal is too good to be true. Also, if pictures are available, use them to see if the coin is currently, or recently, offered in any online resources you can find. May give you some info (ie....if it is in an upcoming auction, it likely isn't the same coin or could just be a complete ripoff).
I only pay with checks to people I have transacted with before, or have grown to known on the forums and feel comfortable with. Otherwise, it is paypal. The ones that demand paypal gift, to save the fee, I steer away from or, if I do know them, I ask if they will take regular paypal and I pay the fee (very seldom on that....and I have to be ok with the higher price).
I also don't do "pre-sales" buys. Firstly, because I have probably already bought it or will when it is for order, anyway. Secondly, because they don't have it in-hand. Saving a few bucks, or trying to be first on the block, isn't worth getting ripped off.
I like having a full name, and sure, a phone number may be nice, but I'm not giving out my phone number to the 99% of the people here. Too many people go psycho at one point or another and I don't need harassing calls. I have given it out to less than a handful of folks. Anyone asking for it, to complete a transaction, and I will just likely decide NOT to transact. I know who I am, I know I am trustworthy, I know I don't buy things I don't have the funds for. There are plenty of references for dealing with me out there, and a number of forum members have met me. If the person on the other side is similar, I am usually feeling pretty good. If not, then we just make sure that we mutually ship at the same time, agree on method of payment and when, agree on delivery time/method of item, etc. I've done double-digit and 5 digit transactions with folks here....luckily, aside from me overpaying on a few items
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I am just turning in here but wanted to thank you for your great response. I just wanted to mention that I did not say or mean that PCGS would create these or monitor criteria for "outing" - I meant, as this is self-policed, that we as members might discuss when it is appropriate to out someone. Wasn't there something recently about an item being late and all...sort of "prematurely"? That sort of thing.
Best wishes,
Eric
I've found most close to all, will work out any issue that arises.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
But nothing gets done, on this one, until shipment is in hand. 3833
If you type in all caps, I expect problems.
No avatar, you may as well be Bernie M.
<< <i>Hi,
Should there be some minimum criterion for "outing" someone here? We have all seen it - and we have seen it unwarranted I think. Just like how a good dealers rep will rise to the top over time and his actions will speak, sometimes a bad notice will follow someone and it is not deserved. I have seen people decide not to do business with others because of threads that were started as PSA and end in other ways. Maybe that's good maybe that's bad. But, how can we not pull that trigger early?
Eric >>
Hmmmmm. Look at today's "here one second gone the next" thread. I think of my attempts to keep OF open, and my personal warnings about security (remember the posting of SS #'s?) to HRH, suggestions for new rules and so on...
Eric
"A car is a tool that takes you from one place to another. Everything beyond that is a payment for other people's perception of you."
I offered to work for such a company years ago as all this stuff was seen coming. But nooooo.
Best,
Eric
<< <i>gonna be a little less safe since "outing" bad transaction parties is now against the rules. >>
Maybe not , the way i read it is "this" forum ..ie.. US Coins forum is not the place for such threads , a bad BST deal thread might be fine in the BST forum.
The only time I have ever been screwed on eBay was this past spring through PayPal gift. After being the high underbidder on a Mexican token, I was contacted by the eBay seller that I had a second chance, as the consignor had another example of the token. The consignor wanted payment via PayPal gift. After being sent a problem piece I immediately contacted the seller and wanted to return, assuming the same return policy as the auction. Seller denied any problems and accused me of lying and having buyer's remorse. After sending pics, he agreed that it was a problem piece but that I was "way out of line" in being unhappy, refused to offer a refund, but would send another example. I stood firm and just wanted my money back. In the end I was stuck with a POS and out $125 with no recourse due to PayPal gift payment.
I agree, understand and appreciate. To be clear - I was trying to discuss s l o w i n g down the "outing" process., if having it at all. It is used way to often. You know, something like: 6) Don't post "Non-Delivery!" threads until something more than 18 minutes has past - that sort of stuff and we have all seen it. And smart and honest folk have been just as bad as others, sometimes I say, making mistakes, not being clear etc. I was, indeed, just trying to help. These threads and boards were a LOT different in many respects 7 years ago.
Best wishes,
Eric