Could counterfiets become so good they will be undectable by the TPGS?

fivecents · September 2, 2009 3:50PM

Case in point, the omega $20's. If this counterfieter didn't mark his coins with the omega symbol in the eagles talon, they would have been undectable.

coinmanic · September 2, 2009 3:53PM

Certainly. Any manufactured product can be duplicated. The question is, at what cost.

fivecents · September 2, 2009 3:56PM

At a great cost to this wonderful hobby/biz.

GoldenEyeNumismatics · September 2, 2009 4:17PM

There are plenty of them already out there in TPG holders.

northcoin · September 2, 2009 4:44PM

<< Case in point, the omega $20's. If this counterfieter didn't mark his coins with the omega symbol in the eagles talon, they would have been undectable. >>

There was a very interesting show on either the National Geographic or History Channel about a counterfeiter who reproduced gaming tokens. Some of the tokens were taken by a suspicious Casino to the company which manufactured the official ones and they deemed them authentic!

Boom · September 2, 2009 4:52PM

I think so.

No!

I would believe so!

JedPlanchet · September 2, 2009 5:08PM

If a counterfeit is undetectable, then is it still a counterfeit?

"If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."

PerryHall · September 2, 2009 5:32PM

<< Case in point, the omega $20's. If this counterfieter didn't mark his coins with the omega symbol in the eagles talon, they would have been undectable. >>

Where did you hear that they would be undetectable? Actually, they were called the "Omegaman" counterfeits since he signed them with a tiny omega within the talons. They were produced in the 1970's and aren't particularly good compared to what are being produced today. There are tooling marks within the rays of the sun among other defects so it's far from undetectable.

frnklnlvr · September 2, 2009 8:39PM

Does anyone have one of the Omegaman counterfeits? or a picture of one?

CoinRaritiesOnline · September 2, 2009 9:14PM

<< Does anyone have one of the Omegaman counterfeits? or a picture of one? >>

Here is one. It has been cut cancelled so as not to fool any collectors and dealers in the future, but you can still see the quality of his work:

frnklnlvr · September 2, 2009 9:28PM

That is impressive work!

Steve27 · September 2, 2009 9:30PM

There already have been counterfeits good enough to fool the TPGs LINK

fivecents · September 2, 2009 11:22PM

<< Where did you hear that they would be undetectable? >>

Bill fiaz said without the omega symbol, the omega $20 counterfiets were virtually undectable. It was at the Dalton show two or three years ago. He held a short gold counterfiet detection class. Bill said they were so good the counterfieter marked them with a very small omega symbol in the eagles talons, so the counterfieter would not accidently buy back his own bogus coins.
A fellow board member has a several of these in his personal counterfiet collection.

coindudeonebay · September 3, 2009 12:26AM

<< There are plenty of them already out there in TPG holders. >>

Exactly my thoughts.

ricko · September 3, 2009 12:37AM

If they are undetectable, then we will never know.. until and unless, they are detected, then, of course, they will not be undetectable. Cheers, RickO

LanLord · September 3, 2009 12:43AM

<< If they are undetectable, then we will never know.. until and unless, they are detected, then, of course, they will not be undetectable. Cheers, RickO >>

Since God is almighty powerful, can he crate a rock to large for he himself to lift?

Weiss · September 3, 2009 12:45AM

<< If a counterfeit is undetectable, then is it still a counterfeit?

"If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." >>

By god I like the cut of your jib, JedPlanchet.

fivecents · September 3, 2009 1:02AM

<< If they are undetectable, then we will never know.. until and unless, they are detected, then, of course, they will not be undetectable. Cheers, RickO >>

You are thinking inside the box Ricko.
What if all the sudden 1 million extra 1955 DDO or 1909-S VDB Lincoln cents suddenly appear on the market at the same time. Or maybe a few hundred thousand 1796 bust quarters and halves. All being completely undecectable?

dcarr · September 3, 2009 1:07AM

<< There already have been counterfeits good enough to fool the TPGs LINK >>

In very low grade the "micro-o" contemporary counterfeits were fairly convincing. But the first time I ever saw (found) a higher-grade 1902-o micro-o, it was not convincing at all. Many of the fake $2.50 and $5.00 Indians are better-made than the micro-o counterfeits.

sellitstore · October 12, 2011 3:52AM

1914 $100 Federal Reserve Note contemporary counterfeits, unknown to collectors, TPGs and nearly everyone else when in circulation were only discovered a few years ago. These are very well made and deceptive and this is clearly why they have gone undetected for so long. So, there are probably other counterfeits out there now and probably will be more created in the future that are undectable or nearly so.

coinkid855 · October 12, 2011 4:24AM

The Omega counterfeits were not as undetectable as purported earlier in this thread. I got to examine one at Summer Seminar, and there were also some depressions and tool-marks I believe. Without that Omega though, it would likely have taken much longer for them to be discovered. He also made some equally convincing $3 gold pieces, I believe.

-Paul

PerryHall · October 12, 2011 4:28AM

<< 

<< Where did you hear that they would be undetectable? >>

Bill fiaz said without the omega symbol, the omega $20 counterfiets were virtually undectable. It was at the Dalton show two or three years ago. He held a short gold counterfiet detection class. Bill said they were so good the counterfieter marked them with a very small omega symbol in the eagles talons, so the counterfieter would not accidently buy back his own bogus coins.
A fellow board member has a several of these in his personal counterfiet collection. >>

The ANA book "Counterfeit Detection (A Reprint from the Numismatist) Volume II" published in 1988 discusses this coin in considerable detail with pics and lists several easily detectable defects. This counterfeit is far from undetectable.

PerryHall · October 12, 2011 4:39AM

<< The Omega counterfeits were not as undetectable as purported earlier in this thread. I got to examine one at Summer Seminar, and there were also some depressions and tool-marks I believe. Without that Omega though, it would likely have taken much longer for them to be discovered. He also made some equally convincing $3 gold pieces, I believe. >>

You are correct--- most of the defects are areas of tooling and they are quite obvious under magnification. The $3 Omegaman counterfeit is dated 1882 and has the Greek letter Omega inside the loop of the R in LIBERTY.

Frankcoins · October 12, 2011 4:55AM

<< Case in point, the omega $20's. If this counterfieter didn't mark his coins with the omega symbol in the eagles talon, they would have been undectable. >>

Nonsense. There are many diagnostics on this particular counterfeit. Many have the "omega" removed, yet they are still obvious to the trained person.

UTTM07 · October 12, 2011 4:57AM

Do TPGs ever miss on deeming a coin not genuine? I have one that came back not genuine and have been considering marking it like the omega counterfeit in this thread. Just want to be totally sure before I do.

Frankcoins · October 12, 2011 5:07AM

<< I have one that came back not genuine and have been considering marking it like the omega counterfeit in this thread. Just want to be totally sure before I do. >>

Keep in the mind that the Walton 1913 Liberty nickel had been deemed an "altered date" by experts 30 years earlier, and the early silver dollars
with the weight adjustment plugs were called "holed and repaired" until fairly recently.

scotty1419 · October 12, 2011 5:14AM

I feel like a lot of the 'discovery' comes from greed on the counterfeiter's side. If they are patient enough not to let untold quantities of something out to the public, it will be much tougher to notice quality work ie the $20 piece and the $100 bill.

astrorat · October 12, 2011 5:30AM

No ... by definition. No counterfeits are perfect. There will always be a difference from the original ... always. It may take a great amount of resources to develop a method of detection, but because a difference exists, it can be detected.

If a "counterfeit" is perfect and thus cannot be detected by ANY means, then how can it be proven to be a counterfeit?

Now, could counterfeits be so good that they will slip past TPGs? Sure ... for a while.

A scarier question is could counterfeits be so good that it is no longer financially viable for a TPG to authenticate coins?

What worries me is that counterfeits of "cheap" coins may be no longer tested/guaranteed by TPGs for authenticity because of the expense. Who would pay several multiples of the current grading fees for "cheap" coins to be slabbed? The "P" in PCGS may soon stand for "Premium."

Edited for grammar ...

magikbilly · October 12, 2011 7:56AM

I am thinking of those C. 1930's(?) 190? Micro-O wharever they were Morgans.

Eric

johnny9434 · October 13, 2011 4:26AM

<< That is impressive work! >>

it sure was

TwoKopeiki · October 13, 2011 4:36AM

Knowledge will help you detect counterfeits in your own collecting focus. Once the counterfeit is no longer visually identifiable, TPG's will need to start doing metal composition analysis, which at least with the classic series will be able to authenticate the coin based on the usual alloy composition of that particular mint at that particular time. Now, if a counterfeiter who has access to equipment able to produce undetectable design creates a planchet using an authentic period coin, giving the exact alloy composition, then it will be undetectable. Something like this would be very costly, especially since we're talking about destroying an original to create the counterfeit, but could work for ultra rarities and key date classics.

Toning is also one of those things that has not been properly reproduced. I can see with time premium for original crusty classical pieces going up.

IrishMikey · October 13, 2011 7:07AM

Bill Fivaz likes to put a little "drama" into his presentations. Some of the "stock edge"
$20 St. Gaudens counterfeits were much higher quality than anything produced by
Mr. Omega, and I can spot both at a glance today.

As with anything, once you know what to look for, and you see a number of the fakes,
detecting them is not difficult. The "Bay Area" Indian cent counterfeits are a good
example -- once you have seen a dozen of them, the look gives them away.

Nysoto · October 14, 2011 12:32AM

Current and future counterfeits will never become good enough to be undetectable by the most knowledgeable specialists in a series. The leading TPG's generally do an excellent job of detecting fakes, at least for the pre-1840 coins I collect. A few exceptions, like the deceptive 1804 altered cent that was graded, but was later identified by a specialist.

Hopefully, the next administration will be more serious about cracking down on the fake coins and products from foreign countries that are a serious threat to numismatics and other areas of commerce.

Could counterfiets become so good they will be undectable by the TPGS?

Comments

Whatever you are, be a good one. ---- Abraham Lincoln

Leave a Comment