MS70 Experiment inspired by newb Ervil

DieClash · September 14, 2011 8:30AM

Welcome aboard the CU psycho-silver-streak-train Ervil!

I have about 17 Morgan and piece circulated silver dollars that I estimate have been stored loose, raw inside a small cardboard box for 30 years, give or take.

I dunked this 1921-D first in Koinsolv (e.g. acetone) to get rid of the loose dirt. Then I applied MS 70 to the coins surfaces according to the instructions on the product:

MS 70 is not a dip and will not work by dipping your coin. Apply MS 70 directly to coin or soak a Q-tip in MS 70 and gently apply to coin. Allow a few seconds for MS 70 to penetrate the contaminants on the coin then gently "massage" the surface of the coin with a Q-tip which has been soaked in MS 70. Thoroughly rinse coin in water. NOTE: When using on copper do a few "test coins" to become familiar with how product works.

I followed the last step with another dip in Koinsolv to remove any residual MS 70.

Here are before and After images:

In conclusion, while I agree that MS 70 is a very powerful detergent, it also removed some of the tarnish. And with said tarnished removed, it reveals some of the coin's flaws. I prefer removing grime with a bath in Koinsolv. This is my first usage of MS 70. And I'd say with mixed results.

Cheers!

Kirk

mbbiker · September 14, 2011 10:13AM

The before looked nice now it looks like any other morgan thats worth melt.

DieClash · September 14, 2011 10:14AM

<< The before looked nice now it looks like any other morgan thats worth melt. >>

'twas worth only melt before too!

GoldenEyeNumismatics · September 14, 2011 10:18AM

The MS70 formula is sometimes inconsistent. I've gotten some bottles that were far too acidic and ruined coins.

steveben · September 14, 2011 10:40AM

here's a morgan that is worth melt, before and after a dip in Ezest:

no rubbing or q-tips...just a 5 sec dip, then run under cold water for 1 min or two.

this morgan is blast white now with some amazing cartwheel luster. but, it's still a common.

DieClash · September 14, 2011 2:23PM

The E-Zest dip did good for that coin. And the fact that some color still exists is indicative of the light, 5-sec. dip. I like the results. This coin benefited from the dip.

Cheers!

Kirk

magikbilly · September 14, 2011 2:27PM

I dunno. That now looks like any other 21 now (it looks like a D bit what do i know). Anyway, it was once a great example of apparently original severely mottled toning that could have been used as an example in an educational display or something. Now it is not, and looks like all the rest and every little mark is screaming too. I liked it before

Eric

DieClash · September 14, 2011 2:44PM

<< I dunno. That now looks like any other 21 now (it looks like a D bit what do i know). Anyway, it was once a great example of apparently original severely mottled toning that could have been used as an example in an educational display or something. Now it is not, and looks like all the rest and every little mark is screaming too. I liked it before

Eric >>

IMO that "mottled toning" is so un-freaking eye-appealing. Only the strictest "purist" would comment positively about that ugly mottled tarnish. I'd really love to see how many "purist" collectors out there pursue ugly crap like this. Seriously! If you are a "original skin" purist how much of a premium are you willing to pay for this unappealing "widget"? Please let me know 'cause I got 16 more just like the OP that I could sell to you for a premium.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Lot's of uppity criticism but no one willing to put their money where their mouth is. It's one thing to be critical about another's coin and how another "conserves" his or her coin, but quite a different story when the critics are all for "original" skin but won't buy a sh*tty lookin' one like in the OP.

This is the reason why products like MS 70 and E-Zest exist.

And for your so-called purists who abhor MS 70 and E-Zest, howzabout making me a decent offer on these sh*tty looking tarnished coins? Yeah, that's what I thought. These coins are too sh*tty looking for y'all to pony up a bid, but y'all have no reluctance in ponying up your biased opinions!

Cheers!

Kirk

GoldenEyeNumismatics · September 14, 2011 4:43PM

<< I dunno. That now looks like any other 21 now (it looks like a D bit what do i know). Anyway, it was once a great example of apparently original severely mottled toning that could have been used as an example in an educational display or something. Now it is not, and looks like all the rest and every little mark is screaming too. I liked it before

Eric >>

It's a 21. There's a bajillion more of them, original, dipped, etc, so I wouldn't worry about it.

Justlooking · September 14, 2011 4:46PM

Honestly, I don't like the before OR the after ... but it's nice to know what the after looks like, for future reference.

magikbilly · September 14, 2011 8:00PM

Hello there,

My goodness!
Given the binary choice of "before" and "after" I chose "before" as the coin retained a little more function to those with an inclination to learning or education. In point of fact, you help illustrate my point. You thought such a coin useful enough to experiment with and start a thread about the results. That common '21 could have held down one end in a wide spectrum of coins exhibiting and explaining the full range of potential toning appearances. Justlooking would not be able to render any opinion without the "before" appearance. He is entitled to his opinion as am I. As are you.
You have me saying your coin is attractive in some context of your own invention, you presumptuously and incorrectly speak of my criteria for eye appeal, and you conclude that I don't want to buy your coin amidst your repeated pleas for bids. Then you call me critical and my opinion biased? That's alright. Normally, I would give such zealous and ill-considered statements the time they deserve, but I am concerned about you, albeit slightly. You seem so upset

Why do you lose your composure? Why do you feel the need to aggressively address these thoughts you have created and attributed to me? It is not very becoming. Why do you care what I think at all?
Your eager efforts have all been for naught I am sorry to say. If you read the thread with Ervil and his coin again you will find I never said anything critical about his coin dipping - I quoted his own words and attempted to help him use this board. I did not see you there offering anything useful.
This is a good time to tell you your misinformed comments in this thread are also misguided - I was talking about the "pre-dip" example Steveben posted.

Eric

raycyca · September 14, 2011 9:00PM

Some are missing the point. The OP's point was it WAS HIS EXPERIMENT with MS 70. I have used MS 70 with GREAT results on MS Kennedys, including 40% silvers. The proofs did not like the MS 70 at all. I rinsed my coins with water and bathed in acetone also. No spotting resulted.
If the OP hadn't posted, someone, or, many people may have gone out and used MS 70 on perhaps a $1000 coin knowing no better and destroying that coin. Granted the coin would be there, but, who would want it? Many people have offered here their test results on toning,dipping, cleaning, grading. A lot of it is very informative. It's when people get off the tangent of the OP's intent that malcontent occurs. I also don't the end product, but to me, it was just a SINGLE test. How about using it on a coin with less original grime. What would that look like?

lcoopie · September 14, 2011 9:29PM

MS 70 =
Industrial Strength Coin Brightener- from the label

ricko · September 14, 2011 9:59PM

Experimentation is a great form of learning. After all, it is where most knowledge is developed. Carry on. Cheers, RickO

GMan · September 15, 2011 1:34AM

MS70 also removes PVC very nicely. I've used it with excellent results on MS and proof coins. Using it on circ coins will have mixed results. Sometimes once you've removed the surface "dirt" the coin looks worse than it did before you started. Hairlines will show where they didn't before etc... I still think it's a great product and I've no problem with using it on the proper coins. Generally I won't use it on circulated coins unless the coin is basically hopeless to begin with. I only use it on silver coinage, Use it on copper at your own risk IMO.

Ervil · September 15, 2011 5:52AM

Hello Steveben, this is the guy that dug up the bones on cleaning yesterday. I thought you said you didn't believe in dipping? The coin does look a lot better to me. If there was any harmful contaminents on the coin they are gone. I don't believe in this dipping because it takes to much of the surface off too fast for me. I don't think MS70 would have taken off this kind of toning at all. If this coin was only good for melt before now it is good for a young collector that needs to fill a hole at melt price and not too bad looking after an acid bath I might add? Newbe Ervil

steveben · September 15, 2011 6:06AM

yeah, there's a lot of talk about it now ...

. but that's a good thing. it seems people have some very strong opinions.

here's what i wrote about dipping in another thread.

<< i don't regularly dip coins. i have only done a couple. [...]

here's a few of my opinions about it (notice, i said opinions):

1. don't dip an expensive/rare coin...leave that to a conservation expert. i dipped to learn on a common coin that is worth melt regardless.
2. don't dip a coin that would look obviously dipped. for example, an XF coin that looks all nice and shiny dead give away compared to a mint state coin. does that make any sense?
3. dip only a coin that desperately needs to benefit from it. [...]
4. don't dip a coin and then keep it a secret. if you dip it and sell it, admit that it has been dipped.

i am not an expert, but these are some things i think i have learned about it. >>

and, i'll add that no...i would not dip a coin, or attempt to clean a coin, with numismatic value. but that's just my opinion. i think it can be done successfully, but i wouldn't trust myself to do it and i would advise against it.

Unknown · September 15, 2011 6:14AM

This content has been removed.

DieClash · September 15, 2011 6:43AM

<< Great thread, thanks!

The Morgan 1921 was ugly but original before and ugly and cleaned after. Which one would I rather have if forced by gun point, why the first of course, no brainer, simple because it is original. The cleaned one is now part of the dime a dozen crowd and the uncleaned one is th eone that has potential since it wasn't touched by crazy humans looking fo rbeauty and perfection. And no I would buy neither, Ilook for eye appealing original coins, so therefore I would leave the original one alone but at least it would be still original if it were with me, whcih imho means there is more potential in that it wasn't messed with, now it is a cleaned widgett, that joined the ranks of 1,000's of other ruined cleaned widgetts. Another one bites the duest, another one bits the dust....... >>

Then you'll just love what E-Z-est did to this Peace Dollar Alan!

Ervil · September 15, 2011 7:02AM

<< Welcome aboard the CU psycho-silver-streak-train Ervil!

I have about 17 Morgan and piece circulated silver dollars that I estimate have been stored loose, raw inside a small cardboard box for 30 years, give or take.

I dunked this 1921-D first in Koinsolv (e.g. acetone) to get rid of the loose dirt. Then I applied MS 70 to the coins surfaces according to the instructions on the product:

MS 70 is not a dip and will not work by dipping your coin. Apply MS 70 directly to coin or soak a Q-tip in MS 70 and gently apply to coin. Allow a few seconds for MS 70 to penetrate the contaminants on the coin then gently "massage" the surface of the coin with a Q-tip which has been soaked in MS 70. Thoroughly rinse coin in water. NOTE: When using on copper do a few "test coins" to become familiar with how product works.

I followed the last step with another dip in Koinsolv to remove any residual MS 70.

Here are before and After images:

In conclusion, while I agree that MS 70 is a very powerful detergent, it also removed some of the tarnish. And with said tarnished removed, it reveals some of the coin's flaws. I prefer removing grime with a bath in Koinsolv. This is my first usage of MS 70. And I'd say with mixed results.

Cheers!

Kirk >>

Thanks Kirk for the welcome. I have been coin collecting pretty well all my life, when I was about 6 years old my Mother bought me and my Sister some Whitman penny books. My Sister and me tried to race and see who could fill their's first. I still have mine which I dug out not too long ago, it is still only half filled or should I say it is half empty? I do think you could have used a better example to experiment with in this thread? Well maybe your right on what you used, considering if you used something nice you could have caused some heart attacks? Toning is pollution and nothing else. I like to look at some coins with pretty peripheral toning and some Morgans that have rainbow colors. But black sulfer oxide is not pretty and can and does ruin coins. I have read so many books and articles on cleaning coins and the molecular makeup of a coins metal and what can attack the surfaces and the circumstances of the attacks. If you had mice chewing on your belongings do you just say it is natural and let the chewing continue or do you set some traps and stop the chewing? There has to be some better answers than leave it alone, school some of there people what to do before they really ruin a valuable coin. Because they are going to try and I think at least guide them in the right direction. This is not like drugs where "Just Say No" will work. I would like to know if there are some true Chemists or Coin Graders on this thread and what is their opinon on what was causing the damage to my Missouri 2x4 and what should I have done to stop the corrosion besides sending it to NCS. I got schooled in a hurry and rightfully so maybe, but mostly all I heard was I was stupid and leave something like that for NCS to take care of. Nobody ever came back and said what kind of chemicals NCS are using, but if a coin is conserved by them then it is marketable, otherwise it is melt? Bull!! I also noticed on your thread here everybody seems to have all the chemicals that were banned on my thread, some of the same people that said I should throgh the MS70 in the garbage. They all must live close to a coin supply store in order to get these products in a hurry for this thread?? Thanks again Kirk. And you do need thick skin to survive on this forum. Ervil the Newb

DieClash · September 15, 2011 7:13AM

Ervin. Do an Advanced Search in this Forum on "Thin" AND "Film". There are a few very informative posts. It explains the thin-film effect that describes the different colors of toning and some good hypotheses on tone color progression.

Cheers!

Kirk

P.S. I just bumped one of the best threads on toning ever. Link

steveben · September 15, 2011 7:44AM

<< Great thread, thanks!

The Morgan 1921 was ugly but original before and ugly and cleaned after. Which one would I rather have if forced by gun point, why the first of course, no brainer, simple because it is original. The cleaned one is now part of the dime a dozen crowd and the uncleaned one is th eone that has potential since it wasn't touched by crazy humans looking fo rbeauty and perfection. And no I would buy neither, Ilook for eye appealing original coins, so therefore I would leave the original one alone but at least it would be still original if it were with me, whcih imho means there is more potential in that it wasn't messed with, now it is a cleaned widgett, that joined the ranks of 1,000's of other ruined cleaned widgetts. Another one bites the duest, another one bits the dust....... >>

what, me worry?

Ervil · September 15, 2011 8:13AM

<< Ervin. Do an Advanced Search in this Forum on "Thin" AND "Film". There are a few very informative posts. It explains the thin-film effect that describes the different colors of toning and some good hypotheses on tone color progression.

Cheers!

Kirk

P.S. I just bumped one of the best threads on toning ever. Link >>

Thanks for the tip Kirk, the thread was very interesting. The link I found was this one "http://www.ivyleaguecoin.com/scienceoftoning.html" it really does explain what is going on the coin's surface and what type of toning it is and what to call it? Thanks Kirk, Newb Ervil

DieClash · September 15, 2011 8:25AM

<< 

<< Ervin. Do an Advanced Search in this Forum on "Thin" AND "Film". There are a few very informative posts. It explains the thin-film effect that describes the different colors of toning and some good hypotheses on tone color progression.

Cheers!

Kirk

P.S. I just bumped one of the best threads on toning ever. Link >>

Thanks for the tip Kirk, the thread was very interesting. The link I found was this one "http://www.ivyleaguecoin.com/scienceoftoning.html" it really does explain what is going on the coin's surface and what type of toning it is and what to call it? Thanks Kirk, Newb Ervil >>

That's Tom Bush' site. He goes by TomB here and ATS. His posts are very informative. I don't know him personally, but he's one of the more knowledgeable numasmitsts who posts here.

Cheers!

Kirk

P.S. I've visited that same webpage often!

Myqqy · September 15, 2011 11:08AM

<< And you do need thick skin to survive on this forum. Ervil the Newb >>

Meh... only if one takes oneself to seriously.

<< Toning is pollution and nothing else >>

MS70 Experiment inspired by newb Ervil

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