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An 1877 Twenty Cent piece … Original but …
BillJones
Posts: 35,983 ✭✭✭✭✭
Here is an 1877 Twenty Cent piece. For those who are not familiar with the series, this is one of the two “Proof only” issues that are in the twenty cent piece set. Government officials realized early on that the Twenty Cent piece had failed, but it took Congress a couple of years before they wiped the denomination off the books. In the mean time the mint produced a small number of Proof coins in 1877 and ’78 for collectors
Estimates vary as to how many of these coins were issued. The Red Book reports a mintage of 350 pieces, but the number extant could be higher than that. It is known that more than 350 were minted, but not all of them were sold and some were melted. “Coin Facts” claims the number of pieces is closer to 500. At any rate this is a scarce coin, and probably the scarcest of the “collectable” Twenty Cent pieces. Only the rare 1876-CC (about 20 known) and the enigmatic 1875-S Proof or presentation strike coins are rarer.
This piece has totally original surfaces; the Proof mirrors are strong; and there are very few hairlines. The coin has mostly blue toning with Proof surface shining through. Unfortunately my photos do not reflect that.
The only negative is that the coin has a spot at 10 o’clock on the obverse. It is a distraction and because of that I was able to buy this piece at a decent discount below Gray Sheet Proof 64 bid. Still it surprises me that no one in the past 100 + years has not fooled with this piece to try to make it look better. Clearly this looks like the type coin that someone would have tried to dip to see what would happen to it. My opinion is that it would look worse because the toning is on the heavy side, but it is no excessively heavy.
At any rate here is an original coin with a spot of natural origins. It illustrates the point that original is not always gorgeous although I don’t find this coin exactly ugly.
Estimates vary as to how many of these coins were issued. The Red Book reports a mintage of 350 pieces, but the number extant could be higher than that. It is known that more than 350 were minted, but not all of them were sold and some were melted. “Coin Facts” claims the number of pieces is closer to 500. At any rate this is a scarce coin, and probably the scarcest of the “collectable” Twenty Cent pieces. Only the rare 1876-CC (about 20 known) and the enigmatic 1875-S Proof or presentation strike coins are rarer.
This piece has totally original surfaces; the Proof mirrors are strong; and there are very few hairlines. The coin has mostly blue toning with Proof surface shining through. Unfortunately my photos do not reflect that.
The only negative is that the coin has a spot at 10 o’clock on the obverse. It is a distraction and because of that I was able to buy this piece at a decent discount below Gray Sheet Proof 64 bid. Still it surprises me that no one in the past 100 + years has not fooled with this piece to try to make it look better. Clearly this looks like the type coin that someone would have tried to dip to see what would happen to it. My opinion is that it would look worse because the toning is on the heavy side, but it is no excessively heavy.
At any rate here is an original coin with a spot of natural origins. It illustrates the point that original is not always gorgeous although I don’t find this coin exactly ugly.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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Very cool when you can find nice old coins that have not been messed with. Nice post!
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
OTOH, the spot looks like the moon over seated Liberty's shoulder, so maybe the coin was designed to be as such.
At any rate, I would not be interested in the coin for my collection, but I have admittedly never been a fan of the odd denominations.
Here is an 1878 Proof Twenty Cent piece that does not have any defects. Once more it’s hard to show a true image of Proof coins that have this look.
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<< <i>You stated that the Proof mirrors are strong. Is this possible in the case where the images indicate that the toning over the fields is moderately hazy? Could you photograph it perpendicular to a multi-colored graphic print to show the strength of the mirrors? >>
I'll have to fool with photos at various angles for example, look at these photos of a Proof Seated Dollar ...
Nice coin, even with the odd toning.
The US Mint records indicate a mintage of 510 1877 dated 20c pieces and 600 dated 1878; distribution and survival are a different story.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>The US Mint records indicate a mintage of 510 1877 dated 20c pieces and 600 dated 1878; distribution and survival are a different story. >>
Yep, way different story
Here are some PCGS POP report numbers.
1877 Twenty Cent Piece
PR-64 – 54
PR-64 Cam and DCam – 22
PR-65 – 22
PR-65 Cam – 5
PR-66 – 12
PR-66 Cam and DCam – 3
None higher.
From these numbers there could be some re-submissions.
<< <i>You should post the auction images as well. >>
Okay I'll let the cat out of the bag. Here was the last time the coin was offered at auction. I didn't buy it here. It was "bought in" and I later bought it from the owner. This picture is a bit washed out and over exposed IMO.
1877 Twenty Cent Piece PR-64
I'm amazed at all the minute detail in the die I never realized was there.
<< <i>Very interesting and legitimately scarce coin, in spite of the minor flaws. Having never looked at a proof 20 center before,
I'm amazed at all the minute detail in the die I never realized was there. >>
The Twenty Cent piece, along with the Trade Dollar were only two regular business strike coins that were designed by William Barber. William Barber was the Cheif Mint Engraver, and his son, Charles, got the job after his father died. The eagle that appears on the Twenty Cent piece is much the bird as the one on the Trade Dollar.
<< <i> OTOH, the spot looks like the moon over seated Liberty's shoulder, so maybe the coin was designed to be as such.
I love it!
<< <i>
<< <i>You should post the auction images as well. >>
Okay I'll let the cat out of the bag. Here was the last time the coin was offered at auction. I didn't buy it here. It was "bought in" and I later bought it from the owner. This picture is a bit washed out and over exposed IMO.
>>
A HA.com picture being overexposed to making the coin look more vibrant...NOOOOOOO
That said they are far and away the best and I use the "bright pictures" to speak to the surfaces condition and not color or skin originality
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>Are you putting your 20c collection back togeather? Are you going to go after the 76cc? >>
Ooooohhhhh ... that would be nice to see!
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>Are you putting your 20c collection back togeather? Are you going to go after the 76cc? >>
1876-CC .... NO
Although I did see a nice one at a Baltimore show a year a so ago. It was a very nice Unc., but at more than half a million, I decided to pass.
<< <i>OTOH, the spot looks like the moon over seated Liberty's shoulder, so maybe the coin was designed to be as such.
Undoubtedly this coin was the inspiration for the reverse of the Eisenhower and Susan B. Anthony dollars.
<< The US Mint records indicate a mintage of 510 1877 dated 20c pieces and 600 dated 1878; distribution and survival are a different story. >>
I have an earlier edition of the Red Book that shows the mintage of the 1877 as 510. Where did the 350 number come from?
<< <i> have an earlier edition of the Red Book that shows the mintage of the 1877 as 510. Where did the 350 number come from? >>
There may have been 510, 1877 Twenty Cent pieces struck, but it would be unlikely that all of them were issued. When the Twenty Cent denomination came to an end, mint records show 450 Proof coins bearing various dates (probably almost all 1877 and ’78) were melted. The estimates are that 290, 1877 dated coins, and 160, 1878 dated coins were melted. That works out to net mintages of 350 for the 1877 and 600 for the 1878. Generally it is has been found that there are 3 pieces dated 1877 for every 5 pieces dated 1878. The estimated net mintages work out to about that ratio.
I tend to see this one as a coin of character- once that character is gone, I see regrets
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<< <i>Do you really believe a dip will improve the look of this coin?
I tend to see this one as a coin of character- once that character is gone, I see regrets >>
Agreed. I don't love that "moon" in the obverse field at 10:00, but it is what it is and it's preferable to dipping it.
For what it's worth, one of my (very) long term projects is to put together an 1877-dated type set, and this one is a key to it. I'd love to have it even with that distraction, much more than a stripped and dipped variety. That's even more true since this blemish is probably the difference between what I could marginally afford now, and what would be way out of my price range.
<< <i>
<< <i> have an earlier edition of the Red Book that shows the mintage of the 1877 as 510. Where did the 350 number come from? >>
There may have been 510, 1877 Twenty Cent pieces struck, but it would be unlikely that all of them were issued. When the Twenty Cent denomination came to an end, mint records show 450 Proof coins bearing various dates (probably almost all 1877 and ’78) were melted. The estimates are that 290, 1877 dated coins, and 160, 1878 dated coins were melted. That works out to net mintages of 350 for the 1877 and 600 for the 1878. Generally it is has been found that there are 3 pieces dated 1877 for every 5 pieces dated 1878. The estimated net mintages work out to about that ratio. >>
Which Mint records? I am not doubting you, I just would like to know the source for my file.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces