I don't know if this was mentioned, but why not have three different time spans? For example, 8am for dealers who paid to set up, 10am for early birds, and noon for the general public on the first day. Just a thought, as it would give those paying to set up an exclusive time frame to deal with other dealers who have paid for a table.
Larry L.
Autism Awareness: There is no limit to the good you can do, if you don't care who gets the credit.
<< <i>As long as this rule hurts one specific dealer, I'm all for it. >>
Who is this one specific dealer and why are you all for hurting him?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I'll speak as a casual collector who approaches a coin show as a hobby and if I buy something great, if I buy nothing, no big deal.
Early birds are frustrating to the casual collector.
Many do their business and leave prior to the show even starting for the massses.
Then when you can enter, the dealers are not fully set up because they have been working with the early birds.
Overall, the show starts with a negative tone and often that will deter a casual collector from spending time and effort on a show and eventually on the hobby.
Coinkat's post is easy to agree with on its surface, but I think it deserves a little examination.
Based on various issues a certain orgainization has to deal with, including its legal budget and the legal fees that have been paid over the past 10 years, it seems that there are more compelling issues that should occupy the time of the person in charge.
There are many issues they are dealing with. The early bird badge is really a small issue for the ANA. This is basically a little payback to the dealers for paying the table fees. If the Executive Director was not a dealer prior to being hired, this might not have been raised as an issue. I never heard of this being a common complaint from dealers (I could be wrong) Sometimes they do stuff that is good for collectors and not so good for dealers, sometimes their action may help dealers and not a few collectors.
Second, if dealers do not want potential early bird customers at their table, maybe they should just not set up at the show and be an early bird instead and they can buy... and buy... and even sell.
I don't think that makes any sense at all.
Third, don't dealers network and communicate among themselves? It would seem dealers that are on top of their game would let their chosen few dealers whom they have an established relationship know in advance want they have. The real deals among dealers are often underway and done well before the show. My point is simple- the best stuff at an ANA show often does not get out into a case to begin with and one needs to ask- if a dealer does not want to allow someone the opportunity to look and buy- the dealer can politely decline the request.
Anyone can search websites and make phone calls to various dealers prior to a show. Anyone can go to the pre-show hotel rooms. All Larry is saying is that there should be a small window where only table holders can trade amongst themselves. It isn't a question of losing sales, at least, I don't see that as a downside.
Fourth- and this is directed to collectors that have attended an ANA- How many times have you been to a dealer's table- only to find that they are not there because they are out working the floor?
This is an argument FOR Larry's plan, not against it. If dealers have a chance prior to the show to look around, they may be satisfied to be at their table during the show.
Those dealers that complain about early birds really should consider changing their business plan.
WOW! That's a wild swing. This isn't about any dealer complaint, it's about giving dealers an advantage they don't now enjoy.
There are many issues they are dealing with. The early bird badge is really a small issue for the ANA. This is basically a little payback to the dealers for paying the table fees.
And what's the payback to regular ANA or life members over the state quarter collecting general public??
What really riles me about this is not the EB policy per se but rather the pro-dealer, anti-ANA-member-collector bias.
Gone but not forgotten: IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal, CoinsAreFun.
I think overall this is a bad idea. No matter how hard you try to make things fair it will never happen. The cream rises to the top. Between it is a "hobby" and a "business" you will never please both sides.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
My first point is simple- the man in charge needs to be working on what is important- perhaps a member of the ANA at any level would like to disclose how much the ANA has incurred in legal fees over the past 10 years and what is being done to reduce these expenses.
I don't see an early bird issue as an issue that even warrents the attention of the man in charge when one considers what is really important.
Dealers have the option of not setting up at the ANA and attending as an early bird and for some dealers it seems that strategy is worthy of the most serious consideration depending upon the status of their inventory and what they need for their customers. Lets look at the costs associated with setting up in connection with just attending as an early bird- dealers need to make a decision that is right for them. What I suggest makes perfect sense.
Dealers that set up can leave their inventory locked in their case and roam the floor with early birds- that is their choice.
Dealers often do trade among themselves as I have pointed out and even witnessed. Dealers already have an advantage by having a table- the deals that come to them from what I have seen is advantage enough...
I think it is just best that we agree to disagree...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Maybe the solution would be to give each dealer 4 Early bird badges that they can give to their best customers or sell to recover some of their table fees.
<< <i>Maybe the solution would be to give each dealer 4 Early bird badges that they can give to their best customers or sell to recover some of their table fees. >>
That's not a bad idea, but the ANA loses the Early Bird revenue (unless they increase the table fees).
Of course, I expect that the same vest pocket dealers who are currently troubling Mr. Shepherd will end up with the EB passes.
<< <i>Maybe the solution would be to give each dealer 4 Early bird badges that they can give to their best customers or sell to recover some of their table fees. >>
Wasn't that PNG day which due to the popularity of torn jeans and Hawaiian shirts has gone the way of the dinosaur.
As a sole proprietor I have certainly experienced the early bird situation at every show. I sometimes have a helper at large shows or sharing with another dealer which does provide some limited additional coverage.
It can be very difficult to set up 4 showcases in a couple of hours, show coins to others, keep an eye on them, and I pretty much have to forget stepping onto the bourse in that situation. Larry's concerns and comments are very much my experience.
On the other hand I don't mind transacting business at any point during the show at set up or whatever.
If I particularly want to keep a coin for the public I will often just state so to a vest pocket early bird, some respect that and others want a number anyway. If the early bird is a collector I don't mind that honestly as much as an early bird vest pocket and am happier to show and price a coin to an early bird collector. The difficulty at some shows is you can't tell the difference between a dealer and collector with an early bird badge. While I know several of the vest pocket dealers and have a good relationship with many I don't know them all so telling the difference at a show would be a big help if I am trying to preserve some of my inventory for collectors during the show.
One of my pet peeves, not specifically at the ANA but for shows in general. There are vest pocket dealers that swoop in and do their thing, have not paid the cost to have a table and be committed to a show, then after a bit of working the floor, like a "hermit crab" find a table that for various reasons is empty and make themselves at home for the rest of the show, without paying anything for the table, nor usually with the permission of the table owner that has left early or was not attending for whatever reason. In most shows they pay nothing more then their early bird badge fee and basically get a table nearly free for most of the hours at the show.
This I resent quite a bit as I pay my fee to be there at a table and I do my best to stay the whole show for all hours, unlike many of the larger dealers who often leave mid-way through and encourage the "hermit crabs" plus in my view disrespect working collectors that often can't get to a show until Saturday.
I would be 100% totally in favor of good bourse monitoring for this situation, requiring the early departees to pay a penalty for leaving early as well as requiring a pro-rated fee to the "hermit crabs."
At least then some of these folks would be sharing the cost instead of the free ride!
For those of you who say let it be open and not restricted, then what's the point of trying to do this right and pay fees and be there for the show?
While I agree dealers can do some self-policing, some rules make sense. Yet I am not sure eliminating early bird badges is the right thing either so I will have to ponder this some more.
Sadly there are a lot of folks out there who take advantage of circumstances and make it more difficult for those who try to do things right.
It was my impression the early leavers subleased the tables to make it look occupied for the entire show so they wouldn't be penalized.
Am I wrong there??
Gone but not forgotten: IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal, CoinsAreFun.
It was my impression the early leavers subleased the tables to make it look occupied for the entire show so they wouldn't be penalized.
Am I wrong there??
Most do not from my observations. And many bourse venues just encourage the neighbors to spread out and occupy the empty space.
There is a lot of abuse in this area. It is a pet peeve to me for dealers to leave early, and many of them are the largest ones too!
I never understood why anyone would pay for a table for a show and use it half the time, leave Friday morning after a day and a half at the show (yes its likely the did the auction and a pre-show as well) and not give a working collector a chance to view their inventory.
This is not a particularly collector-oriented attitude in my opinion.
But it's also not the sort of thing to fuss over; it's not that important. Go ahead and make the change. Fine.
If a dealer-to-dealer transaction ends up making a piece more expensive...and thus prevents me from buying it...or from buying more pieces in addition to it...so be it.
First- no blasting from me as you are entitled to express your thoughts.
I have never paid an early enterance fee at a major show- however, I try to attend on a Friday and go back for unfinished business the following day.
I do think that early birds support the show- many bring coins to sell and that benefits dealers- they buy and I have heard dealers claim that they had a successful show before I even get there.
I do agree with you that taking a vacate table is wrong and the so-called hermits need to be stopped- if the table is sub-leased- I have no problem with that- if some just takes it because it is empty, then perhaps show organizers should consider a charging a fee- but that issue seems to be a different issue than early birds coming in on Thursdays.
My experience with coins shows has lead me to believe that one really has to look at the cases, the boxes and even ask afew questions to get what you want- it is also a little about luck and being at a table at the right time to get what you are looking for- sometimes the early bird does not get the coin because it just may be a question of timing.
You may wish to reconsider thinking how collectors and early birds support shows just be attending- offering coins for sale and buying
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I fully support Glenn's stance about the 'hermit crabs'.....I'm amazed (but maybe shouldn't be) that someone would commandeer a vacant table w/o paying anything for it, and then get away with it.
Maybe I'll bring some inventory next time and plop myself down.
What's a table cost for the summer ANA??
Gone but not forgotten: IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal, CoinsAreFun.
Gone but not forgotten: IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal, CoinsAreFun.
For some people, yes. For others, no. There really is a mixed bag of feelings both among collectors and dealers -- as I heard at both Sacramento and Chicago.
I do have to give credit for something I noticed in Chicago this year. Rather than having a generic photo ID for anyone needing early access to the floor, specific IDs / holders are being given to dealers, exhibitors, judges, etc. This should ensure that people only have access to the floor when they are supposed to.
Greg
Greg Lyon, ANA Board of Governors 2011-2017 -- The views represented here are my own personal opinions and do not represent those of the American Numismatic Association.
Comments
Larry L.
<< <i>As long as this rule hurts one specific dealer, I'm all for it. >>
Who is this one specific dealer and why are you all for hurting him?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Early birds are frustrating to the casual collector.
Many do their business and leave prior to the show even starting for the massses.
Then when you can enter, the dealers are not fully set up because they have been working with the early birds.
Overall, the show starts with a negative tone and often that will deter a casual collector from spending time and effort on a show and eventually on the hobby.
Based on various issues a certain orgainization has to deal with, including its legal budget and the legal fees that have been paid over the past 10 years, it seems that there are more compelling issues that should occupy the time of the person in charge.
There are many issues they are dealing with. The early bird badge is really a small issue for the ANA. This is basically a little payback to the dealers for paying the table fees. If the Executive Director was not a dealer prior to being hired, this might not have been raised as an issue. I never heard of this being a common complaint from dealers (I could be wrong) Sometimes they do stuff that is good for collectors and not so good for dealers, sometimes their action may help dealers and not a few collectors.
Second, if dealers do not want potential early bird customers at their table, maybe they should just not set up at the show and be an early bird instead and they can buy... and buy... and even sell.
I don't think that makes any sense at all.
Third, don't dealers network and communicate among themselves? It would seem dealers that are on top of their game would let their chosen few dealers whom they have an established relationship know in advance want they have. The real deals among dealers are often underway and done well before the show. My point is simple- the best stuff at an ANA show often does not get out into a case to begin with and one needs to ask- if a dealer does not want to allow someone the opportunity to look and buy- the dealer can politely decline the request.
Anyone can search websites and make phone calls to various dealers prior to a show. Anyone can go to the pre-show hotel rooms. All Larry is saying is that there should be a small window where only table holders can trade amongst themselves. It isn't a question of losing sales, at least, I don't see that as a downside.
Fourth- and this is directed to collectors that have attended an ANA-
How many times have you been to a dealer's table- only to find that they are not there because they are out working the floor?
This is an argument FOR Larry's plan, not against it. If dealers have a chance prior to the show to look around, they may be satisfied to be at their table during the show.
Those dealers that complain about early birds really should consider changing their business plan.
WOW! That's a wild swing. This isn't about any dealer complaint, it's about giving dealers an advantage they don't now enjoy.
And what's the payback to regular ANA or life members over the state quarter collecting general public??
What really riles me about this is not the EB policy per se but rather the pro-dealer, anti-ANA-member-collector bias.
I think overall this is a bad idea. No matter how hard you try to make things fair it will never happen. The cream rises to the top. Between it is a "hobby" and a "business" you will never please both sides.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
My first point is simple- the man in charge needs to be working on what is important- perhaps a member of the ANA at any level would like to disclose how much the ANA has incurred in legal fees over the past 10 years and what is being done to reduce these expenses.
I don't see an early bird issue as an issue that even warrents the attention of the man in charge when one considers what is really important.
Dealers have the option of not setting up at the ANA and attending as an early bird and for some dealers it seems that strategy is worthy of the most serious consideration depending upon the status of their inventory and what they need for their customers. Lets look at the costs associated with setting up in connection with just attending as an early bird- dealers need to make a decision that is right for them. What I suggest makes perfect sense.
Dealers that set up can leave their inventory locked in their case and roam the floor with early birds- that is their choice.
Dealers often do trade among themselves as I have pointed out and even witnessed. Dealers already have an advantage by having a table- the deals that come to them from what I have seen is advantage enough...
I think it is just best that we agree to disagree...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Really? Just anyone?
<< <i>Maybe the solution would be to give each dealer 4 Early bird badges that they can give to their best customers or sell to recover some of their table fees. >>
That's not a bad idea, but the ANA loses the Early Bird revenue (unless they increase the table fees).
Of course, I expect that the same vest pocket dealers who are currently troubling Mr. Shepherd will end up with the EB passes.
How many badges does one get with a table this year?
Lakes has a great indirect proposal; ANA Lifers should get in for free anytime.
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
<< <i>Maybe the solution would be to give each dealer 4 Early bird badges that they can give to their best customers or sell to recover some of their table fees. >>
Wasn't that PNG day which due to the popularity of torn jeans and Hawaiian shirts has gone the way of the dinosaur.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
It can be very difficult to set up 4 showcases in a couple of hours, show coins to others, keep an eye on them, and I pretty much have to forget stepping onto the bourse in that situation. Larry's concerns and comments are very much my experience.
On the other hand I don't mind transacting business at any point during the show at set up or whatever.
If I particularly want to keep a coin for the public I will often just state so to a vest pocket early bird, some respect that and others want a number anyway. If the early bird is a collector I don't mind that honestly as much as an early bird vest pocket and am happier to show and price a coin to an early bird collector. The difficulty at some shows is you can't tell the difference between a dealer and collector with an early bird badge. While I know several of the vest pocket dealers and have a good relationship with many I don't know them all so telling the difference at a show would be a big help if I am trying to preserve some of my inventory for collectors during the show.
One of my pet peeves, not specifically at the ANA but for shows in general. There are vest pocket dealers that swoop in and do their thing, have not paid the cost to have a table and be committed to a show, then after a bit of working the floor, like a "hermit crab" find a table that for various reasons is empty and make themselves at home for the rest of the show, without paying anything for the table, nor usually with the permission of the table owner that has left early or was not attending for whatever reason. In most shows they pay nothing more then their early bird badge fee and basically get a table nearly free for most of the hours at the show.
This I resent quite a bit as I pay my fee to be there at a table and I do my best to stay the whole show for all hours, unlike many of the larger dealers who often leave mid-way through and encourage the "hermit crabs" plus in my view disrespect working collectors that often can't get to a show until Saturday.
I would be 100% totally in favor of good bourse monitoring for this situation, requiring the early departees to pay a penalty for leaving early as well as requiring a pro-rated fee to the "hermit crabs."
At least then some of these folks would be sharing the cost instead of the free ride!
For those of you who say let it be open and not restricted, then what's the point of trying to do this right and pay fees and be there for the show?
While I agree dealers can do some self-policing, some rules make sense. Yet I am not sure eliminating early bird badges is the right thing either so I will have to ponder this some more.
Sadly there are a lot of folks out there who take advantage of circumstances and make it more difficult for those who try to do things right.
Ok everyone. My turn to get blasted....
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
It was my impression the early leavers subleased the tables to make it look occupied for the entire show so they wouldn't be penalized.
Am I wrong there??
It was my impression the early leavers subleased the tables to make it look occupied for the entire show so they wouldn't be penalized.
Am I wrong there??
Most do not from my observations. And many bourse venues just encourage the neighbors to spread out and occupy the empty space.
There is a lot of abuse in this area. It is a pet peeve to me for dealers to leave early, and many of them are the largest ones too!
I never understood why anyone would pay for a table for a show and use it half the time, leave Friday morning after a day and a half at the show (yes its likely the did the auction and a pre-show as well) and not give a working collector a chance to view their inventory.
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
But it's also not the sort of thing to fuss over; it's not that important. Go ahead and make the change. Fine.
If a dealer-to-dealer transaction ends up making a piece more expensive...and thus prevents me from buying it...or from buying more pieces in addition to it...so be it.
First- no blasting from me as you are entitled to express your thoughts.
I have never paid an early enterance fee at a major show- however, I try to attend on a Friday and go back for unfinished business the following day.
I do think that early birds support the show- many bring coins to sell and that benefits dealers- they buy and I have heard dealers claim that they had a successful show before I even get there.
I do agree with you that taking a vacate table is wrong and the so-called hermits need to be stopped- if the table is sub-leased- I have no problem with that- if some just takes it because it is empty, then perhaps show organizers should consider a charging a fee- but that issue seems to be a different issue than early birds coming in on Thursdays.
My experience with coins shows has lead me to believe that one really has to look at the cases, the boxes and even ask afew questions to get what you want- it is also a little about luck and being at a table at the right time to get what you are looking for- sometimes the early bird does not get the coin because it just may be a question of timing.
You may wish to reconsider thinking how collectors and early birds support shows just be attending- offering coins for sale and buying
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Maybe I'll bring some inventory next time and plop myself down.
What's a table cost for the summer ANA??
ttt.
How should we list our table Lakes? I'm thinking something regarding Indiana with a date or number, then Wholesale Coins LLC.
Good to go?
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
<< <i>Has this policy really worked? >>
For some people, yes. For others, no. There really is a mixed bag of feelings both among collectors and dealers -- as I heard at both Sacramento and Chicago.
I do have to give credit for something I noticed in Chicago this year. Rather than having a generic photo ID for anyone needing early access to the floor, specific IDs / holders are being given to dealers, exhibitors, judges, etc. This should ensure that people only have access to the floor when they are supposed to.
Greg
Governments can print currency. Only the people can print faith in it — and they’re running low on ink.