<< <i>MR SHEPPARD IS A MENACE ND NEEDS TO BE REMOVED!!! HE is singlehandedly destroying what the ANA stands for with idoitic ideas IMHO... >>
While I strongly disagree with this new policy I still approve in an overall sense of the job L.S. Is doing with the ANA. While it is impossible to agree with everything, new ideas are preferred over doing nothing.
So if you feel L.S. is, in your terms, "a menace...to the ANA", were you happy with the job Chris Cipoletti did? Just curious.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>For those of you who are opposed to this change - and there seem to be more than a few of you - why not contact Larry Shepherd directly and voice your disapproval? >>
I just did and sent him an email with a link to this thread.
<< <i>come on guys, the dealers just need more time to buy and sell from each other so they can each profit a little bit from each coin before it ends up in a collector's hand at maybe 25% or so higher than dealer #1 was willing to sell it for. >>
This logic appears more honest....which is why this decision and letter coming from an executive director of the ANA is unusual and does not appear to have the general membership of the ANA in mind but rather Larry speaks more so out of his experience as a dealer, imo.
Thats kind of dangerous.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Then by your logic why should the ANA put on any show at all since the vast majority of collectors cannot afford to attend such shows?
Exactly. The new policy has nothing to do with collectors; it has everything to do with dealers. >>
As the entirety of the argument presented is ludicrous, I have little doubt that the reality of this decision is far more likely the result of a very few dealers not liking the fact that bigger buyers with little need for a table were doing a lot of business with dealers that had product to sell.
Consider the following:
- Early Birds have the advantage of seeing dealer material at the same time as other dealers. - When you walk up to ANY table during dealer setup to buy NEW material you need to be invited to sit down.
This policy has nothing to do with keeping material on the bourse and contributions to the local economy, that is a red herring. It has everything to do with a few dealers taking offense at Early Birds doing real business on the floor.
And, in the end it will not stop Early Birds that do real business on the floor as their money will talk for them. If XYZ Dealer knows ABC Early Bird usually spends $50K a show then the dealer will make arrangements to ensure that ABC Early Bird gets an appropriately shot at the inventory before the show begins.
- The vocal minority that wanted this policy change get nothing. - The ANA will get no Early Bird Revenue and less attendance. - The Early Birds that weren't major buyers get the shaft.
I think Larry is doing a great job. He is working hard to improve the ANA, and in this case the ANA shows. This is just one of several ideas he has which he believes, and I agree, will make the shows a better experience for collectors and table holders alike.
For those who do not know - the table holders are paying for the ANA shows. Not the collectors. Not the Early Birds. Table holders have been taken for granted by previous ANA management. Just look at the locations that have been chosen in the past . Not at all dealer friendly, or collector friendly for that matter.
As a former dealer, I spent at least $5000 per show to setup. It was frustrating to see Early Birds pick off coins that I would have liked to have seen first. What many collectors don't realize is that a coin can change hands several times at the same show before they get a chance to buy it - after a lot of markups. So when I had a coin on a want list and had to buy it from an Early Bird it cost the collector more than if I had had a chance to see it first. That's not to mention that with Larry's plan the collectors will be have a better chance of buying the coins themselves.
I think we should support Larry's efforts to improve the ANA. Maybe every idea will not work out, but you have to give the guy credit for trying.
<< <i>IMHO ... it seems that anything that the ANA does that serves to piss-off and alienate even more collectors than they already have is a bad thing at this particular time. >>
While I disagree with the policy, as stated elsewhere, it's not worth storming the castle over. It does put me on the alert for anti-collector changes down the road.
<< <i>For those of you who are opposed to this change - and there seem to be more than a few of you - why not contact Larry Shepherd directly and voice your disapproval? >>
Mark, could you have possibly thought that I would not do this?
Don, I respect you and what you have done in this hobby-industry just as I respect Larry for his achievments, too. In fact, I even included in my email to Larry that I thought he was doing a terrific job for the organization. However, I believe in this instance that Larry is perhaps listening to the wrong people and implementing a plan of action with a negative net result. I let him know this in more detail in my email.
I have a little experience sitting on the other side of a table. Yes there is a cost to set up that earlybirds do not have to pay for.
But the advantages I found were that the public brought deals to me.
Likewise, dealers brought deals to me.
They knew where I was setup. I was able to buy cheaper set up as a perceived dealer ( which I am not).
The other advantage, if you are a good full time dealer, is that you need to be set up to meet and greet the customers your hopefully cultivating behind the scenes when your not at major shows.
Setting up at shows promotes your brand name and customer experience, especially for full time dealers.
Not so when your an EB.
Thats what should makes a difference to a coin dealer's long term business prospects in my view.
Not restricting the rights of others to attend by EB.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>For those of you who are opposed to this change - and there seem to be more than a few of you - why not contact Larry Shepherd directly and voice your disapproval? >>
Mark, could you have possibly thought that I would not do this?
Don, I respect you and what you have done in this hobby-industry just as I respect Larry for his achievments, too. In fact, I even included in my email to Larry that I thought he was doing a terrific job for the organization. However, I believe in this instance that Larry is perhaps listening to the wrong people and implementing a plan of action with a negative net result. I let him know this in more detail in my email. >>
Tom, I did think you would make your opinion known, but my suggestion was directed at quite a few posters.
No one is more liberal on these boards than Longacre, but I bristle at the fact that the ANA is trying to protect us (or is it we?) collectors and/or the dealers. I think the dealers should be allowed to police themselves on this matter (as well as the collectors).
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>No one is more liberal on these boards than Longacre, but I bristle at the fact that the ANA is trying to protect us (or is it we?) collectors and/or the dealers. I think the dealers should be allowed to police themselves on this matter (as well as the collectors). >>
I agree to most of the above:
1) That no one on this board is more liberal than Longacre 2) That the ANA is trying to protect a group of dealers (from another group) 3) That the dealers should police themselves
As I stated earlier, the table holders can refuse to sell coins to the vest pocket dealers, and the problem will be solved. It's only a problem because some of the table holders do transact business with the vest pocket dealers during that first half day or first hour.
Wow, Larry is on the J-O-B. He already replied to my email and is aware of our conversation. He plans to survey all ANA members next week. Sounds reasonable to me.
<< <i>No one is more liberal on these boards than Longacre, but I bristle at the fact that the ANA is trying to protect us (or is it we?) collectors and/or the dealers. I think the dealers should be allowed to police themselves on this matter (as well as the collectors). >>
I agree to most of the above:
1) That no one on this board is more liberal than Longacre 2) That the ANA is trying to protect a group of dealers (from another group) 3) That the dealers should police themselves
As I stated earlier, the table holders can refuse to sell coins to the vest pocket dealers, and the problem will be solved. It's only a problem because some of the table holders do transact business with the vest pocket dealers during that first half day or first hour. >>
I call that freedom. I don't like policies that arbitrarily restricts freedom.
Besides, if I am a dealer set up with a table at the ANA, I want more buyers roaming the floor to potentially buy my coins and sell me coins that first day. That would include Eb's.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
One of my favorite dealers long ago past would never set up at dealer setup time, because he wanted his new inventory to go to his regular collector customers. Since I was one, he was my first stop when the doors opened to the public. He always had new stuff that the dealers had not gleaned. I built significant parts of my 34 year collection from him.
Larry seems to think that coins gleaned at dealer setup time would reappear for sale later at the show. He mentioned this twice. I am sure some do, but its been my experience that dealers don't have the time to work up these newps. I have worked with some dealers behind the table while they are out buying. The coins they return with they hold back for their lists or the next show. I have seen many a pile of show newps in case corners that dealers won't show me because they aren't worked up yet or are being held back for their next show.
Once I chased several rare coins from a dealers web site to his shop through his son to his show hotel only to find they were sold at dealers setup time as he was cherry picked ( he just bought a big collection). The buying specialist dealer refused to even show them to me let alone sell them, even at the request of the original selling dealer.
As an advanced collector I have to compete with the specialist dealers before they get all the few fresh coins available at the show and then ask moon money for or never see. The eary bird helped me do that. Without that opportunity I will not risk high expenses to travel to the ANA shows that I've been attending since 1975 and not have a fighting chance to find the scarce fresh material ( might only be a handful of what I am looking for at the show) at reasonable prices.
Shows are fun with the early bird, but travel is expensive. I guess their will be more in the budget for coins if I just stay home and buy out on the web, or have the tabled dealer friends look for me. The ANA shows should favor collectors more than the dealers.
It will be what it will be and I will change my plans to whatever is decided..
<< <i>I think that there is no added monetary benefit to the ANA to institute this. It is only a fairness issue. It also is not a decision that is necessarily a detriment to collectors. It might give average collectors a better experience. I don't see the down-side, but I don't get early-bird badges. If I did, I guess I'd be a bit put-off by not being first in line. I think it's great that Larry is being pro-active on an issue that most people would not think of as being an issue. >>
There is a simple solution to those who really want to be there on set up day - get on a dealer's table.
If the ANA wanted to raise money off the solution they would have raised the cost - $300 or so. But they looked at it and determined that the best way was to eliminate the early bird badge altogether. If anyone who really wants to get in at set-up, they can get friendly with their dealer and get on their table. Where there is a will there is a way.
During my two decades as an ANA member dealer, I watched in extreme frustration as early birds combed the bourse floor for the best numismatic material available – leaving smaller dealers like me in a quandary: Do we set up our tables and have them ready for the show, or do we leave our tables to compete against the early birds?
DEALER SET UP DAY IS TYPICALLY 2-8PM - ARE YOU TELLING ME IT TAKES YOU 6 HOURS TO SET OUT 2 CASES OF COINS? IF SO, BECOME MORE EFFICIENT, COMB THE BOURSE UNTIL 6PM AND THEN SET UP.
These early bird buyers have, historically, been given an unfair advantage. While dealers invest hundreds or thousands of dollars buying bourse tables, purchasing advertising and sponsorships, staying at our hotels, and eating at local restaurants, early birds pay a small fraction of that amount to, essentially, remove the best material from the floor – at the expense of many dealers who can’t simultaneously set up a table and work the bourse.
SEE ABOVE - IN ADDITION, I TYPICALLY FLY IN A DAY EARLY, STAY IN A LOCAL HOTEL, EAT LOCAL MEALS, ETC. AND STAY THE WEEK. I CAN'T RECALL THE LAST TIME I BOUGHT A REALLY COOL COIN DURING EARLY BIRD HOURS - I USUALLY SUBMIT COINS TO THE SERVICES AND CHECK OUT COINS THAT DEALERS HAVE PROMISED ME FIRST SHOT AT BEFORE THE MASSES ARRIVE. IT'S A MORE CASUAL ATMOSPHERE.
Furthermore, these early birds often complete their buying sprees, exit the convention site and head for home before the show even opens.
SEE ABOVE.
Meantime, fewer collectors are willing to invest the time and money to attend shows because, as I’ve heard time and time again, the best material is often gone by the time the shows open to the public. If early trading was limited to bourse dealers, chances are that most would resell that same sought-after numismatic material to an eager public once the show opens.
NEWS TO ME - CAN OTHER DEALERS (W/O A DOG IN THE HUNT REGARDING THIS TOPIC) COOBERATE THAT?
While it’s true that early birds generate revenue for dealers, it’s my belief that those same buyers would still attend our shows and purchase their material during public hours.
GUESS AGAIN.
Collectors will be more willing to invest the time and expense of attending the show if they know the best inventory has not been picked over before they arrive. I do not believe this change will result in the loss of business over the course of the show; in fact I believe it may encourage greater competition among buyers of limited merchandise.
YOUR RIGHT - I'M MORE LIKELY TO ATTEND IF I KNOW THE COINS HAVE ALREADY CHANGED HANDS SEVERAL TIMES AND I'M GETTING BURIED.
Conversely, I believe allowing early entry to a limited few is very damaging to the show’s success.
IF THERE WAS PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT, I WOULD AGREE, HOWEVER IT'S OPEN TO ALL WILLING TO PONY UP.
I have put a lot of thought into this, drawing on my experience as a dealer, collector and, for nearly two years, Executive Director of this Association. The ANA should not be in the business of selling favorable treatment to the detriment of those who purchase tables and support our shows.
GUESS I SHOULDN'T HAVE SPRUNG FOR THE LIFE MEMBERSHIP RECENTLY. GOT NOTHING FOR IT OVER THE GENERAL MEMBERSHIP.
If anyone should get priority, it is the dealers who buy the bourse tables – and I believe everyone would agree that our collector members should all be treated equally. In my opinion, there is just no good reason to give early birds unfair advantage over our dealers or collectors.
LIKE NIC SAID, WHAT DO YOU WANT FOR A TABLE? HOW MANY BADGES/TABLE?
I understand that those who traditionally purchase early bird credentials will not like this decision, and I suspect some dealers may also be concerned. But it’s my honest opinion that those who currently purchase early bird badges will attend our shows, regardless.
PERHAPS JUST THE AUCTIONS......MUCH EASIER TO FLY IN, PREVIEW AND LEAVE BIDS. BETTER YET, GO TO HERITAGE HEADQUARTERS AND REVIEW THE COINS AT LEISURE. NO REASON TO STAY IN LOCAL HOTELS AND EAT LOCAL FOOD. DEALERS GIVING ME FIRST SHOT WILL JUST HAVE TO MAIL THE COINS FROM NOW ON.
After all, many make a living buying and selling coins – and ANA shows will still have the best inventories available. I believe more collectors will be willing to return to our shows if they feel they can compete fairly for the best material, and any numismatic items traded early among dealers will then be displayed for sale during public hours. Your feedback is extremely important to me and the ANA Board of Governors.
SEE ABOVE
If you think we are doing the right thing, tell us by replying to this email and writing, “agree.” If you think we are wrong, please reply and write, “disagree.” Should you have any additional questions or comments, please send me an email at shepherd@money.org. I thank you for your time and consideration.
DISAGREE
Gone but not forgotten: IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal, CoinsAreFun.
Impossible to agree with everything that the ANA does or doesn't do. Impossible to please everybody. I actually think this is an non-event in the grand scheme of things. Larry has my full support not that it's worth much. He's a good man. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I did email Larry about my opinion. It seems that the majority of dealers/people who make a living on coins are for it though. Although I have respect for most on these boards some of the arguments "for" it don't make a lot of sense to me.
<< <i>What many collectors don't realize is that a coin can change hands several times at the same show before they get a chance to buy it - after a lot of markups. So when I had a coin on a want list and had to buy it from an Early Bird it cost the collector more than if I had had a chance to see it first. >>
Why would I want a dealer to be able to fill his customers want lists instead of me being able to buy the coin for myself? I'm not seeing the upside on that. I buy from dealers all the time, and I want them to stay in business and keep finding great coins for me, but I don't want every man and his dog making a profit on the coin before it gets to me if I am buying on the bourse floor.
This is confusing, because if the OP did not want comments HERE (for or against), then why post this at all HERE? The email already went out to everyone -right? Comments would have been returned to Larry directly anyway per the email. I thought this thread was than intended for the purpose of hearing comments from board members? Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Mitch, I belive the email from Larry was sent out only to ANA Member Dealers and was meant to inform them of rules that would help only dealers who buy ANA tables at the ANA show. It was not worded such that it was meant for the general ANA membership or the hobby overall. Julian did those of us who are not on this particular email list a favor by posting the email contents.
Perhaps the ANA should start holding coin shows exclusively for paid members. NGC could follow suit. If you haven't paid your dues, you're not welcomed! Only paid members get the best coins, inf, whatever.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
I'd be ok with no early bird passes. I'd also be ok, as a collector, if the dealers could set up but there was no trading until the doors opened (yes, I know dealers need SOME time to do some wheelin' and dealin', but wouldn't it be great, from the collector's side, if the collectors had a chance to get the coins equal to the dealer's chance? )
"DEALER SET UP" should be for the guys that buy tables.
Advanced collector of BREWERIANA. Early beer advertising (beer cans, tap knobs, foam scrapers, trays, tin signs, lithos, paper, etc)....My first love...U.S. COINS!
Unfortunately it's already difficult to get on a dealers table. If this policy is implemented it will make it much more difficult. The early bird badge is available to anyone willing to pay the fee. The ANA should consider keeping the fee low to encourage more people to pay for early admittance. The early bird badge allows me to fly in early and submit coins for grading, view auction lots, and socialize with friends and dealers in a relaxed environment. Often this significantly reduces the waiting time to submit coins for grading, auction viewing, and at dealer’s tables. I hope and encourage the ANA leadership to make policies that promote and encourage collectors to come to ANA events early and enhance their show experience.
Unfortunately, shows have created the problem by allowing some people in, and not others, and charging a fee for it.
Perhaps a 30-60 min set-up time, only for table holders, two per table, is the answer. Only let the dealers in and allow them to physically set up the tables and put out their merchandise. Then, you can decide if you want to have a paying early bird group or just let everyone else in. Many of us serious collectors do not like the idea that the bourse is open, transactions are going on, and we cannot get in. Back to the Super Bowl analogy, I would not want to pay all the money to attend, but only be allowed in after the first quarter is over.
I know a couple of dealers (and most of us do) who attend major shows early to buy and sell without taking a table. I like these dealers, but I can understand that dealers who buy tables might not like subsidizing the dealers who don't. Wouldn't it be possible for the ANA to find a way to protect paying dealers from non-paying dealers without penalizing collectors? For example, at our local coin club show, we charge a fee to vest pocket dealers who want to be on the floor before the show opens.
Count me in the camp who want to retain the early bird policy the way it is. This is standard practice in other collectables areas. I just read an article about a big antiques show that charges (gulp!) a $1,000 early bird fee.
For dealers who set up and don't want to miss out on the deals during set-up time: as someone already suggested, lock up your stuff behind your table for the first few hours and scour the floor. Then set up at the end of "set-up day". Problem solved.
If a collector or dealer really, really wants to get in early -- pay the early bird fee and go in. If one doesn't want to pay the $100 for something that will be free to all comers a few hours later, that is understandable. I doubt that I would, unless I specialized in buying generic gold.
There is a dealer I know (who sets up at all the major shows, and many regional ones). He always, ALWAYS comes away with many good deals and "rips" at every single show he attends. One time I asked him what day he goes out to buy at a major show. He told me this: "If it is a multi-day show (say, Thursday Through Sunday), I will always do my buying on Saturday".
I said: REALLY?? He said -- "Yup. the dealers have settled in, and they know the early rush is over. Many of them have new purchases boxes for me to go through. I often ask to take a look through the boxes in their back cases, and frequently find things they forgot to set up or didn't have room to display. And if a coin has remained unsold for a few days at a major show, sometimes a dealer will be a little more flexible on the price."
Let me tell you -- this guy is one incredible buyer. He'll show me what he has bought at a show sometimes. I never know what to expect, but I know there will be some incredible deals mixed in with his new purchases. Oh -- I should add that he is an extremely knowledgeable numismatist and has deep knowledge in a wide range of areas (all US material though -- he doesn't do world coins).
Listen -- the ANA (and other show promoters) face a tough job. Revenue from coin shows has do the lion's share of the work to support this nonprofit organization (the library, scholarships, etc.). I personally don't want to cut off a revenue stream -- especially for a result with a very uncertain benefit.
We need a volunteer panel of major dealers to stand by the door and a pneumatic nail gun. All persons identified by any of the dealers as a vest-pocket dealer will have an identifying plate nailed to their foreheads and are then ineligible for early-bird status. If you are both a collector and a dealer, you better make sure you know the major dealers think you're a collector. There...it's solved!
Maybe they should have an ANA bourse sleep-in lock-down night. Collectors could pay a fee to sleep in the bourse area so they could be first in line the next day. They could build a bon fire out of slab inserts and melt down bronze cents, or make 'Smores with RB cents. Special interest groups could do educational skits about their specialty - think of the VAMpires doing a skit on clashed dies, and Bust half collectors dramatizing repunched dates!
At 8am Security could unseal the doors, distribute complimentary deodorant and mouthwash, and make arrests as necessary.
<< <i>Personally I believe the ANA is about collectors, Larry seems to think it's about dealers. >>
Agree. Is the ANA primarily for collectors or dealers? If it's primarily for dealers, I'll probably not renew my 30 year membership.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If the A.N.A. is so concerned about allowing Early Bird Dealers in before the regular show starts, because they feel it gives these dealers an unfair advantage, then why do they sponsor a PNG day?
If the early birds are such numismatic scofflaws, simply raise the price of the badges (I think someone mentioned that antique dealers charge $1,000 for a badge), and that will probably limit the numbers of these dastardly people.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
I just going to write what I think and let the chips fall wherever...
Based on various issues a certain orgainization has to deal with, including its legal budget and the legal fees that have been paid over the past 10 years, it seems that there are more compelling issues that should occupy the time of the person in charge.
Second, if dealers do not want potential early bird customers at their table, maybe they should just not set up at the show and be an early bird instead and they can buy... and buy... and even sell.
Third, don't dealers network and communicate among themselves? It would seem dealers that are on top of their game would let their chosen few dealers whom they have an established relationship know in advance want they have. The real deals among dealers are often underway and done well before the show. My point is simple- the best stuff at an ANA show often does not get out into a case to begin with and one needs to ask- if a dealer does not want to allow someone the opportunity to look and buy- the dealer can politely decline the request.
Fourth- and this is directed to collectors that have attended an ANA- How many times have you been to a dealer's table- only to find that they are not there because they are out working the floor?
Those dealers that complain about early birds really should consider changing their business plan
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>I just going to write what I think and let the chips fall wherever...
Based on various issues a certain orgainization has to deal with, including its legal budget and the legal fees that have been paid over the past 10 years, it seems that there are more compelling issues that should occupy the time of the person in charge.
Second, if dealers do not want potential early bird customers at their table, maybe they should just not set up at the show and be an early bird instead and they can buy... and buy... and even sell.
Third, don't dealers network and communicate among themselves? It would seem dealers that are on top of their game would let their chosen few dealers whom they have an established relationship know in advance want they have. The real deals among dealers are often underway and done well before the show. My point is simple- the best stuff at an ANA show often does not get out into a case to begin with and one needs to ask- if a dealer does not want to allow someone the opportunity to look and buy- the dealer can politely decline the request.
Fourth- and this is directed to collectors that have attended an ANA- How many times have you been to a dealer's table- only to find that they are not there because they are out working the floor?
Those dealers that complain about early birds really should consider changing their business plan >>
coinkat---Great post and I totally
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I have only paid the fee and used the "early bird" once, down in Baltimore, when it got you in a day ahead of time (back in 2006). That was before they started letting the public in at 2pm on Thursday. While it did not prove beneficial for me, at least I was consoled in knowing that half the fee went to a charitable organization (Children's Hospital, I believe). When it comes to any major show, much of the dealing is done before the show ever opens. The deals are done in hotel rooms, over dinner, etc. In fact, a major dealer once stated that the show was actually "over" for them before they ever entered the bourse to set up. No matter how you look at it, there will always be an unfair advantage to someone.
Larry L.
Autism Awareness: There is no limit to the good you can do, if you don't care who gets the credit.
Comments
<< <i>MR SHEPPARD IS A MENACE ND NEEDS TO BE REMOVED!!! HE is singlehandedly destroying what the ANA stands for with idoitic ideas IMHO... >>
While I strongly disagree with this new policy I still approve in an overall sense of the job L.S. Is doing with the ANA. While it is impossible to agree with everything, new ideas are preferred over doing nothing.
So if you feel L.S. is, in your terms, "a menace...to the ANA", were you happy with the job Chris Cipoletti did? Just curious.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>For those of you who are opposed to this change - and there seem to be more than a few of you
I just did and sent him an email with a link to this thread.
<< <i>come on guys, the dealers just need more time to buy and sell from each other so they can each profit a little bit from each coin before it ends up in a collector's hand at maybe 25% or so higher than dealer #1 was willing to sell it for.
This logic appears more honest....which is why this decision and letter coming from an executive director of the ANA is unusual and does not appear to have the general membership of the ANA in mind but rather Larry speaks more so out of his experience as a dealer, imo.
Thats kind of dangerous.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Then by your logic why should the ANA put on any show at all since the vast majority of collectors cannot afford to attend such shows?
Exactly. The new policy has nothing to do with collectors; it has everything to do with dealers. >>
As the entirety of the argument presented is ludicrous, I have little doubt that the reality of this decision is far more likely the result of a very few dealers not liking the fact that bigger buyers with little need for a table were doing a lot of business with dealers that had product to sell.
Consider the following:
- Early Birds have the advantage of seeing dealer material at the same time as other dealers.
- When you walk up to ANY table during dealer setup to buy NEW material you need to be invited to sit down.
This policy has nothing to do with keeping material on the bourse and contributions to the local economy, that is a red herring. It has everything to do with a few dealers taking offense at Early Birds doing real business on the floor.
And, in the end it will not stop Early Birds that do real business on the floor as their money will talk for them. If XYZ Dealer knows ABC Early Bird usually spends $50K a show then the dealer will make arrangements to ensure that ABC Early Bird gets an appropriately shot at the inventory before the show begins.
- The vocal minority that wanted this policy change get nothing.
- The ANA will get no Early Bird Revenue and less attendance.
- The Early Birds that weren't major buyers get the shaft.
And nothing has changed to the regular attendees.
Much ado about nothing.
For those who do not know - the table holders are paying for the ANA shows. Not the collectors. Not the Early Birds. Table holders have been taken for granted by previous ANA management. Just look at the locations that have been chosen in the past . Not at all dealer friendly, or collector friendly for that matter.
As a former dealer, I spent at least $5000 per show to setup. It was frustrating to see Early Birds pick off coins that I would have liked to have seen first. What many collectors don't realize is that a coin can change hands several times at the same show before they get a chance to buy it - after a lot of markups. So when I had a coin on a want list and had to buy it from an Early Bird it cost the collector more than if I had had a chance to see it first. That's not to mention that with Larry's plan the collectors will be have a better chance of buying the coins themselves.
I think we should support Larry's efforts to improve the ANA. Maybe every idea will not work out, but you have to give the guy credit for trying.
<< <i>
<< <i>Why should a collector who can afford an expensive early bird badge get an advantage over a collector who cannot? >>
Because this is still America ... not ObamAmerica. >>
OK, if you make one more political post, I'm going to lobby for you to get bammed.
<< <i>IMHO ... it seems that anything that the ANA does that serves to piss-off and alienate even more collectors than they already have is a bad thing at this particular time. >>
While I disagree with the policy, as stated elsewhere, it's not worth storming the castle over. It does put me on the alert for anti-collector changes down the road.
<< <i>For those of you who are opposed to this change - and there seem to be more than a few of you
Mark, could you have possibly thought that I would not do this?
Don, I respect you and what you have done in this hobby-industry just as I respect Larry for his achievments, too. In fact, I even included in my email to Larry that I thought he was doing a terrific job for the organization. However, I believe in this instance that Larry is perhaps listening to the wrong people and implementing a plan of action with a negative net result. I let him know this in more detail in my email.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
But the advantages I found were that the public brought deals to me.
Likewise, dealers brought deals to me.
They knew where I was setup. I was able to buy cheaper set up as a perceived dealer ( which I am not).
The other advantage, if you are a good full time dealer, is that you need to be set up to meet and greet the customers your hopefully cultivating behind the scenes when your not at major shows.
Setting up at shows promotes your brand name and customer experience, especially for full time dealers.
Not so when your an EB.
Thats what should makes a difference to a coin dealer's long term business prospects in my view.
Not restricting the rights of others to attend by EB.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>
<< <i>For those of you who are opposed to this change - and there seem to be more than a few of you
Mark, could you have possibly thought that I would not do this?
Don, I respect you and what you have done in this hobby-industry just as I respect Larry for his achievments, too. In fact, I even included in my email to Larry that I thought he was doing a terrific job for the organization. However, I believe in this instance that Larry is perhaps listening to the wrong people and implementing a plan of action with a negative net result. I let him know this in more detail in my email. >>
Tom, I did think you would make your opinion known, but my suggestion was directed at quite a few posters.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>No one is more liberal on these boards than Longacre, but I bristle at the fact that the ANA is trying to protect us (or is it we?) collectors and/or the dealers. I think the dealers should be allowed to police themselves on this matter (as well as the collectors). >>
I agree to most of the above:
1) That no one on this board is more liberal than Longacre
2) That the ANA is trying to protect a group of dealers (from another group)
3) That the dealers should police themselves
As I stated earlier, the table holders can refuse to sell coins to the vest pocket dealers, and the problem will be solved. It's only a problem because some of the table holders do transact business with the vest pocket dealers during that first half day or first hour.
<< <i>
<< <i>No one is more liberal on these boards than Longacre, but I bristle at the fact that the ANA is trying to protect us (or is it we?) collectors and/or the dealers. I think the dealers should be allowed to police themselves on this matter (as well as the collectors). >>
I agree to most of the above:
1) That no one on this board is more liberal than Longacre
2) That the ANA is trying to protect a group of dealers (from another group)
3) That the dealers should police themselves
As I stated earlier, the table holders can refuse to sell coins to the vest pocket dealers, and the problem will be solved. It's only a problem because some of the table holders do transact business with the vest pocket dealers during that first half day or first hour. >>
I call that freedom. I don't like policies that arbitrarily restricts freedom.
Besides, if I am a dealer set up with a table at the ANA, I want more buyers roaming the floor to potentially buy my coins and sell me coins that first day. That would include Eb's.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
One of my favorite dealers long ago past would never set up at dealer setup time,
because he wanted his new inventory to go to his regular collector customers.
Since I was one, he was my first stop when the doors opened to the public.
He always had new stuff that the dealers had not gleaned. I built significant parts of my 34 year collection from him.
Larry seems to think that coins gleaned at dealer setup time would reappear for sale later at the show. He mentioned this twice.
I am sure some do, but its been my experience that dealers don't have the time to work up these newps. I have worked with some dealers behind the table while they are out buying. The coins they return with they hold back for their lists or the next show.
I have seen many a pile of show newps in case corners that dealers won't show me because they aren't worked up yet or are being held back for their next show.
Once I chased several rare coins from a dealers web site to his shop through his son to his show hotel only to find they were sold at dealers setup time as he was cherry picked ( he just bought a big collection). The buying specialist dealer refused to even show them to me let alone sell them, even at the request of the original selling dealer.
As an advanced collector I have to compete with the specialist dealers before they get all the few fresh coins available at the show and then ask moon money for or never see. The eary bird helped me do that. Without that opportunity I will not risk high expenses to travel to the ANA shows that I've been attending since 1975 and not have a fighting chance to find the scarce fresh material ( might only be a handful of what I am looking for at the show) at reasonable prices.
Shows are fun with the early bird, but travel is expensive. I guess their will be more in the budget for coins if I just stay home and buy out
on the web, or have the tabled dealer friends look for me. The ANA shows should favor collectors more than the dealers.
It will be what it will be and I will change my plans to whatever is decided..
Krueger
<< <i>I think that there is no added monetary benefit to the ANA to institute this. It is only a fairness issue. It also is not a decision that is necessarily a detriment to collectors. It might give average collectors a better experience. I don't see the down-side, but I don't get early-bird badges. If I did, I guess I'd be a bit put-off by not being first in line. I think it's great that Larry is being pro-active on an issue that most people would not think of as being an issue. >>
I agree wholeheartedly Rick!
Gary
If the ANA wanted to raise money off the solution they would have raised the cost - $300 or so. But they looked at it and determined that the best way was to eliminate the early bird badge altogether. If anyone who really wants to get in at set-up, they can get friendly with their dealer and get on their table. Where there is a will there is a way.
During my two decades as an ANA member dealer, I watched in extreme frustration as early birds combed the bourse floor for the best numismatic material available – leaving smaller dealers like me in a quandary: Do we set up our tables and have them ready for the show, or do we leave our tables to compete against the early birds?
DEALER SET UP DAY IS TYPICALLY 2-8PM - ARE YOU TELLING ME IT TAKES YOU 6 HOURS TO SET OUT 2 CASES OF COINS? IF SO, BECOME MORE EFFICIENT, COMB THE BOURSE UNTIL 6PM AND THEN SET UP.
These early bird buyers have, historically, been given an unfair advantage. While dealers invest hundreds or thousands of dollars buying bourse tables, purchasing advertising and sponsorships, staying at our hotels, and eating at local restaurants, early birds pay a small fraction of that amount to, essentially, remove the best material from the floor – at the expense of many dealers who can’t simultaneously set up a table and work the bourse.
SEE ABOVE - IN ADDITION, I TYPICALLY FLY IN A DAY EARLY, STAY IN A LOCAL HOTEL, EAT LOCAL MEALS, ETC. AND STAY THE WEEK. I CAN'T RECALL THE LAST TIME I BOUGHT A REALLY COOL COIN DURING EARLY BIRD HOURS - I USUALLY SUBMIT COINS TO THE SERVICES AND CHECK OUT COINS THAT DEALERS HAVE PROMISED ME FIRST SHOT AT BEFORE THE MASSES ARRIVE. IT'S A MORE CASUAL ATMOSPHERE.
Furthermore, these early birds often complete their buying sprees, exit the convention site and head for home before the show even opens.
SEE ABOVE.
Meantime, fewer collectors are willing to invest the time and money to attend shows because, as I’ve heard time and time again, the best material is often gone by the time the shows open to the public. If early trading was limited to bourse dealers, chances are that most would resell that same sought-after numismatic material to an eager public once the show opens.
NEWS TO ME - CAN OTHER DEALERS (W/O A DOG IN THE HUNT REGARDING THIS TOPIC) COOBERATE THAT?
While it’s true that early birds generate revenue for dealers, it’s my belief that those same buyers would still attend our shows and purchase their material during public hours.
GUESS AGAIN.
Collectors will be more willing to invest the time and expense of attending the show if they know the best inventory has not been picked over before they arrive. I do not believe this change will result in the loss of business over the course of the show; in fact I believe it may encourage greater competition among buyers of limited merchandise.
YOUR RIGHT - I'M MORE LIKELY TO ATTEND IF I KNOW THE COINS HAVE ALREADY CHANGED HANDS SEVERAL TIMES AND I'M GETTING BURIED.
Conversely, I believe allowing early entry to a limited few is very damaging to the show’s success.
IF THERE WAS PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT, I WOULD AGREE, HOWEVER IT'S OPEN TO ALL WILLING TO PONY UP.
I have put a lot of thought into this, drawing on my experience as a dealer, collector and, for nearly two years, Executive Director of this Association. The ANA should not be in the business of selling favorable treatment to the detriment of those who purchase tables and support our shows.
GUESS I SHOULDN'T HAVE SPRUNG FOR THE LIFE MEMBERSHIP RECENTLY. GOT NOTHING FOR IT OVER THE GENERAL MEMBERSHIP.
If anyone should get priority, it is the dealers who buy the bourse tables – and I believe everyone would agree that our collector members should all be treated equally. In my opinion, there is just no good reason to give early birds unfair advantage over our dealers or collectors.
LIKE NIC SAID, WHAT DO YOU WANT FOR A TABLE? HOW MANY BADGES/TABLE?
I understand that those who traditionally purchase early bird credentials will not like this decision, and I suspect some dealers may also be concerned. But it’s my honest opinion that those who currently purchase early bird badges will attend our shows, regardless.
PERHAPS JUST THE AUCTIONS......MUCH EASIER TO FLY IN, PREVIEW AND LEAVE BIDS. BETTER YET, GO TO HERITAGE HEADQUARTERS AND REVIEW THE COINS AT LEISURE. NO REASON TO STAY IN LOCAL HOTELS AND EAT LOCAL FOOD. DEALERS GIVING ME FIRST SHOT WILL JUST HAVE TO MAIL THE COINS FROM NOW ON.
After all, many make a living buying and selling coins – and ANA shows will still have the best inventories available.
I believe more collectors will be willing to return to our shows if they feel they can compete fairly for the best material, and any numismatic items traded early among dealers will then be displayed for sale during public hours.
Your feedback is extremely important to me and the ANA Board of Governors.
SEE ABOVE
If you think we are doing the right thing, tell us by replying to this email and writing, “agree.” If you think we are wrong, please reply and write, “disagree.” Should you have any additional questions or comments, please send me an email at shepherd@money.org.
I thank you for your time and consideration.
DISAGREE
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>What many collectors don't realize is that a coin can change hands several times at the same show before they get a chance to buy it - after a lot of markups. So when I had a coin on a want list and had to buy it from an Early Bird it cost the collector more than if I had had a chance to see it first. >>
Why would I want a dealer to be able to fill his customers want lists instead of me being able to buy the coin for myself? I'm not seeing the upside on that. I buy from dealers all the time, and I want them to stay in business and keep finding great coins for me, but I don't want every man and his dog making a profit on the coin before it gets to me if I am buying on the bourse floor.
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Wondercoin
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I'd also be ok, as a collector, if the dealers could set up but there was no trading until the doors opened
(yes, I know dealers need SOME time to do some wheelin' and dealin', but wouldn't it be great, from the collector's side, if the collectors had a chance to get the coins equal to the dealer's chance?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Perhaps a 30-60 min set-up time, only for table holders, two per table, is the answer. Only let the dealers in and allow them to physically set up the tables and put out their merchandise. Then, you can decide if you want to have a paying early bird group or just let everyone else in. Many of us serious collectors do not like the idea that the bourse is open, transactions are going on, and we cannot get in. Back to the Super Bowl analogy, I would not want to pay all the money to attend, but only be allowed in after the first quarter is over.
It seems like a reasonable compromise.
Edit for typo.
For dealers who set up and don't want to miss out on the deals during set-up time: as someone already suggested, lock up your stuff behind your table for the first few hours and scour the floor. Then set up at the end of "set-up day". Problem solved.
If a collector or dealer really, really wants to get in early -- pay the early bird fee and go in. If one doesn't want to pay the $100 for something that will be free to all comers a few hours later, that is understandable. I doubt that I would, unless I specialized in buying generic gold.
There is a dealer I know (who sets up at all the major shows, and many regional ones). He always, ALWAYS comes away with many good deals and "rips" at every single show he attends. One time I asked him what day he goes out to buy at a major show. He told me this: "If it is a multi-day show (say, Thursday Through Sunday), I will always do my buying on Saturday".
I said: REALLY?? He said -- "Yup. the dealers have settled in, and they know the early rush is over. Many of them have new purchases boxes for me to go through. I often ask to take a look through the boxes in their back cases, and frequently find things they forgot to set up or didn't have room to display. And if a coin has remained unsold for a few days at a major show, sometimes a dealer will be a little more flexible on the price."
Let me tell you -- this guy is one incredible buyer. He'll show me what he has bought at a show sometimes. I never know what to expect, but I know there will be some incredible deals mixed in with his new purchases. Oh -- I should add that he is an extremely knowledgeable numismatist and has deep knowledge in a wide range of areas (all US material though -- he doesn't do world coins).
Listen -- the ANA (and other show promoters) face a tough job. Revenue from coin shows has do the lion's share of the work to support this nonprofit organization (the library, scholarships, etc.). I personally don't want to cut off a revenue stream -- especially for a result with a very uncertain benefit.
[Edited for typo]
Coin Rarities Online
At 8am Security could unseal the doors, distribute complimentary deodorant and mouthwash, and make arrests as necessary.
<< <i>Personally I believe the ANA is about collectors, Larry seems to think it's about dealers. >>
Agree. Is the ANA primarily for collectors or dealers? If it's primarily for dealers, I'll probably not renew my 30 year membership.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The court jester does not play, but gently pulls the strings…
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Based on various issues a certain orgainization has to deal with, including its legal budget and the legal fees that have been paid over the past 10 years, it seems that there are more compelling issues that should occupy the time of the person in charge.
Second, if dealers do not want potential early bird customers at their table, maybe they should just not set up at the show and be an early bird instead and they can buy... and buy... and even sell.
Third, don't dealers network and communicate among themselves? It would seem dealers that are on top of their game would let their chosen few dealers whom they have an established relationship know in advance want they have. The real deals among dealers are often underway and done well before the show. My point is simple- the best stuff at an ANA show often does not get out into a case to begin with and one needs to ask- if a dealer does not want to allow someone the opportunity to look and buy- the dealer can politely decline the request.
Fourth- and this is directed to collectors that have attended an ANA-
How many times have you been to a dealer's table- only to find that they are not there because they are out working the floor?
Those dealers that complain about early birds really should consider changing their business plan
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>I just going to write what I think and let the chips fall wherever...
Based on various issues a certain orgainization has to deal with, including its legal budget and the legal fees that have been paid over the past 10 years, it seems that there are more compelling issues that should occupy the time of the person in charge.
Second, if dealers do not want potential early bird customers at their table, maybe they should just not set up at the show and be an early bird instead and they can buy... and buy... and even sell.
Third, don't dealers network and communicate among themselves? It would seem dealers that are on top of their game would let their chosen few dealers whom they have an established relationship know in advance want they have. The real deals among dealers are often underway and done well before the show. My point is simple- the best stuff at an ANA show often does not get out into a case to begin with and one needs to ask- if a dealer does not want to allow someone the opportunity to look and buy- the dealer can politely decline the request.
Fourth- and this is directed to collectors that have attended an ANA-
How many times have you been to a dealer's table- only to find that they are not there because they are out working the floor?
Those dealers that complain about early birds really should consider changing their business plan >>
coinkat---Great post and I totally
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Larry L.
<< <i>As long as this rule hurts one specific dealer, I'm all for it. >>
Which dealer?.....The dealer who wants to buy, sell and trade with earlybirds or the dealer who wants to only buy among dealers?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.