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Where is the dividing line between widget and non-widget?
BryceM
Posts: 11,941 ✭✭✭✭✭
As I gain experience with the hobby it occurs to me that there are really three tiers of collectors, shaped like a pyramid. There is the large base of collectors dutifully filling albums with state quarters and Lincoln cents. These people might dabble in a few nicer pieces here and there, but they usually lack either the desire or money to bother with slabbed coins. These people probably account for the majority of coin collectors. Their enjoyment in the hobby has little to do with thought of the investment potential of their collections. They probably aren't represented well in this forum.
The second tier consists of people who have interest in classics, rare moderns, type sets, or nicer examples in a particular series. They have either the means or the desire to designate funds to acquire nicer pieces. At this level, slabbed coins become important. This is also where most of the "widgets" circulate, I'm guessing. We all know that in almost any series there are widgets and keys, both of which are eventually important to collecting a full set. Due to the money necessary to put together such collections, thoughts of future value become important and the "investment" potential is a serious consideration. Probably most of the members here are more or less in this category.
The top tier consists of the people for whom the phrase "investing in rare coins" is most suited. These folks collect true rarities. There aren't too many people at this rarified altitude, but collectivley they are very important in setting the marked price for most of the hobby. The market up here probably acts differently than the commodity market of the widget.
There is also a commonly held belief that the value of true rarities doesn't swing around as much with the whims of the market. Now, don't get me wrong. There are people in all three categories who are savvy and passionate about their niche in the hobby. I respect them all equally. There are also people in all three tiers who don't know which way to turn a screwdriver.
My question is this......
At what point do coins stop being widgets affected by the economy, market whims, PM prices, and such (think MS-64 common-date Morgans)? At what point do coins gain the protection that comes from being high-end? Is it based on a dollar amount? scarcity? number of collectors in that particular series?
Where do you make the distinction?
The second tier consists of people who have interest in classics, rare moderns, type sets, or nicer examples in a particular series. They have either the means or the desire to designate funds to acquire nicer pieces. At this level, slabbed coins become important. This is also where most of the "widgets" circulate, I'm guessing. We all know that in almost any series there are widgets and keys, both of which are eventually important to collecting a full set. Due to the money necessary to put together such collections, thoughts of future value become important and the "investment" potential is a serious consideration. Probably most of the members here are more or less in this category.
The top tier consists of the people for whom the phrase "investing in rare coins" is most suited. These folks collect true rarities. There aren't too many people at this rarified altitude, but collectivley they are very important in setting the marked price for most of the hobby. The market up here probably acts differently than the commodity market of the widget.
There is also a commonly held belief that the value of true rarities doesn't swing around as much with the whims of the market. Now, don't get me wrong. There are people in all three categories who are savvy and passionate about their niche in the hobby. I respect them all equally. There are also people in all three tiers who don't know which way to turn a screwdriver.
My question is this......
At what point do coins stop being widgets affected by the economy, market whims, PM prices, and such (think MS-64 common-date Morgans)? At what point do coins gain the protection that comes from being high-end? Is it based on a dollar amount? scarcity? number of collectors in that particular series?
Where do you make the distinction?
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Comments
There are plenty of wealthy folks on these boards that do not have this attitude but there are far too many that do.
It is most important to try your best to purchase "PROBLEM FREE and PROPERLY GRADED" examples of whatever you like at a "FAIR PRICE". Beyond that, there is no need to get caught up in what is and what is not a widget.
My 2 cents.
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
A "widget" (with respect to the coin market) is a dealer term that is defined as a readily available coin. I have also heard these coins referred to as "product". There are key date widgets (09SVDB) and common widgets (1959 Memorial cent), expensive widgets (MS-65 Saints) and cheaper ones (AU/BU common date white Morgans).
The term has nothing to do with grade, price, quality, or whether or not it is slabbed.
It really does not serve the collector to parse the definition of the widget, but in the context of buying coins, it is often good to know what is readily available, as these coins may not have much demand or price support when you are trying to sell them.
certain markets. Note the recent price spikes in mid-grade BU Morgans. Obviously, any
widget made of gold has also done quite well over the last decade...
<< <i>Agree with RYK's post, except to note that the right widgets can do extremely well in
certain markets. Note the recent price spikes in mid-grade BU Morgans. Obviously, any
widget made of gold has also done quite well over the last decade... >>
Good point! Perhaps the Gold American Eagle is the ultimate widget.
Widget is not a true collector term, but it generally means
that such coins are not difficult to find. Non widget, are coins
of such, grades and series, that are very difficult to find.
Example, three dollar gold pieces in high clean circulated grade
and very expensive in clean gem grade. All three dollar gold pieces
in nice clean VF and up,are tough coins indeed.
On the other hand, Morgan dollars in 1882-CC, 1883-CC and 1884 CC
as well as 1879-S, 1880-S and 1881-S can all be considered widges clear
up to and including MS-67.
Camelot
replacement, for the hammer, that I can never find.
Camelot
<< <i>...it is often good to know what is readily available, as these coins may not have much demand or price support when you are trying to sell them. >>
I'd argue that it is the stratospheric coins that do not have much demand nor support. The market for the top coins is very thin and unpredictable. When you are in the five+ digit world, the number of potential buyers dwindle. There are momentary strengths and weaknesses in that market, moreso than widgets.
Widgets are commonly available product. And there is indeed a demand for them. They are common enough and trade often enough that the market is more stable. Widgets are also affected more by intrinsic value. If you had paid a rarity premium for a widget, you may find it's all eaten up by a move in precious metal prices. On the other hand, if you did not pay a premium for a widget, you may see quite a gain based on those metal prices.
Widgets in my opinion exist in a gray area between bullion and rarity.
In both cases, what kills off demand is asking too high a price.
definition of widget from a number of different but fascinating direction. Well done
all of you. You have taught the fuzzy old bear a lot about coins in this thread. That
is the purpose of the Forum. Well done indeed.
Camelot
<< <i>As I gain experience with the hobby it occurs to me that there are really three tiers of collectors, shaped like a pyramid. ... Their enjoyment in the hobby has little to do with thought of the investment potential of their collections. They probably aren't represented well in this forum.
The second tier consists of people who have interest in classics, rare moderns, type sets, or nicer examples in a particular series. ... Due to the money necessary to put together such collections, thoughts of future value become important and the "investment" potential is a serious consideration. Probably most of the members here are more or less in this category.
The top tier consists of the people for whom the phrase "investing in rare coins" is most suited. These folks collect true rarities. There aren't too many people at this rarified altitude, but collectivley they are very important in setting the marked price for most of the hobby. The market up here probably acts differently than the commodity market of the widget.
My question is this......
At what point do coins stop being widgets affected by the economy, market whims, PM prices, and such (think MS-64 common-date Morgans)? At what point do coins gain the protection that comes from being high-end? Is it based on a dollar amount? scarcity? number of collectors in that particular series?
Where do you make the distinction? >>
RYK covered the widget part so well, it needs no further explanation.
I disagree with many points in the original post. As to the first group, I believe that there are plenty of album fillers on this forum. Many of the album fillers also collect slabbed coins, but I'd guess 30% to 70% of forumites have coin albums, and maybe for 20% that is where most of their hobby money goes. The second group of certified collectors is also full of folks that mostly collect for fun, and don't care that much about how they do monetary because it is hobby money, even though their monetary investment can be significant. The third group often does care, but many even in that group focus on the hobby aspect first, not the investment angle. The third group can do well financially, but that mostly comes more from being top experts, in terms of grading, availability, market trends, as well as being extremely well connected in terms of dealer and collector contacts.
The last point about "protection" from being high-end I see as an illusion. Pay way too much for a high end coin (perhaps after being played by a dealer, or perhaps engaging in a bidding war with another deep-pocketed fool), and it will be burial almost as surely as paying retail price for a raw album coin. "Protection" comes from knowing how to grade, knowing the finer points of quality and originality, knowing how difficult some pieces are to find, as well as possible future demand, and having the superior connections to acquire the pieces at a reasonable price. It certainly helps if a person is well connected enough that when he/she sells, the piece will be hyped up by promotion, or dealer talk, or by other friends.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
the set referrs to a set i am in the process of completing
toners is my bunch of toned ms coins
misc is made up of various coins that i like and have some attachment to and do not want to sell atm
my widgets are coins that i have no emotional attachment to, and will be willing to sell or trade for something that i want, some are high end high dollar and some arent.
i have a ms67 sae in my misc box and a 17-S merc in 65fb in my widget box, all depends on what coins i personally like
People who think that because the highest end rarities "have always gone up", they must continue to
do so may do no better than the notorious hedge fund managers who went broke relying on decades
worth of stock market data.
<< <i>Don't worry too much and collect what you like. >>
First, an apology. Pigeon-holing people into one of three categories isn't really my intent, and generalizations can only get you so far. I hope I'm broad-minded enough to appreciate eveyone's approach to the hobby. Maybe MKman's advice is the best.
Dredging up the definition of "widget" isn't really my desire. The very term is obviously offensive to some.
Bullion follows its own rules.
Maybe diversification is good? Some high-end pieces, some albums full of low-grade stuff, a few high-end carefully selected pieces (assuming you know what a winner looks like), some bullion, etc.
Again, maybe MKman is right.
<< <i>Maybe collecting for collecting's sake is good enough, but it's fun to think there might be some financial reward to partially offset the dollars to flow outward to acquire the really intersting shiny stuff. >>
Ironically, a lot of the big financial winners in the hobby over the years collected "for collecting's sake".
Probably because those who take a genuine interest in something usually are the ones who learn
what constitutes quality not to mention fair market value. True collectors also tend to hold onto
their prized coins for a long time, which ups the "freshness" factor upon sale.
<< <i> "Protection" comes from knowing how to grade, knowing the finer points of quality and originality, knowing how difficult some pieces are to find, as well as possible future demand" >>
Bingo!
<< <i>"and having the superior connections to acquire the pieces at a reasonable price. It certainly helps if a person is well connected enough that when he/she sells, the piece will be hyped up by promotion, or dealer talk, or by other friends." >>
This is also accurate and the more difficult, often frustrating aspect of numismatics for those collectors who fall into the OP's (necessarily somewhat arbitrary) definition of "tier two" collectors.
- Jim
Is the frequently proposed notion that there will always be strong buyers at the top end of the market just wishful thinking?
I happen to believe that you can be a genius or a fool at any depth of the game. Like most things, there seems to be a semi-consensus that those who invest the most time in learning, have the most experience, and have the best connections are likely to see the greatest potential financial benefit, even if that wasn't their actual intent.
<< <i>Is the frequently proposed notion that there will always be strong buyers at the top end of the market just wishful thinking? >>
Any notion that contains the word "always" with regard to any market is probably flawed...
edited a spelling error.
I knew it would happen.
Somewhere between the interior of my safe deposit box and the nearest ANA Show.
<< <i>I tend to think that terms like "widget" and "dreck" are debasing toward those collectors who happen to prefer the coins to which those terms are applied. >>
Are you referring to "Joe Sixpack"?
(sorry, couldn't resist...)
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>How can a CoinJunkie possibly know the difference between a connaiseur coin and a widget, anyhow? Don't you oogle them all regardless?
Even addicts can (usually) discern the "good stuff". And, for the record, I swear I can
quit anytime...
<< <i>Where is the dividing line between widget and non-widget? >>
Easy. When it is in your ownership or anyone else's, it's a widget.
Once it crosses the line into MY ownership, it becomes a treasure.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
What becomes a widget is determined from collector to collector.
This reminds me of a time when I finally came across a collector who had some of the most incredible Jefferson nickels that I had ever seen. I told this individual that showing his coins off to everyone might not be too good of an idea. Explaining that if people saw how great these coins can get, it would discourage them from collecting the series. That they would never stand a chance in finding coins of equal quality, that they would shy away from wasting their money on inferior coins.
But we all have to eventually sell our coins so there's no way of keeping the ultimate coins a secret....right? At least from those who never make the trip to see them.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>I tend to think that terms like "widget" and "dreck" are debasing toward those collectors who happen to prefer the coins to which those terms are applied. >>
Agree. These terms are use by boutique dealers who cater to the wealthy collector and whose coins are mostly unaffordable to the average collector. I don't see why they need to denigrate others by using these terms to describe their coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Don't emulate the ignorant.
What IS a widget?
<< <i>Coins are not widgets, period. It is a misuse of the English language to call a coin a widget.
Don't emulate the ignorant. >>
While you're at it, I wouldn't emulate the pompous & rude either but it is a free country and you can mimic who you like. Emulation is the highest form of flattery.
<< <i>my widgets are coins that i have no emotional attachment to, and will be willing to sell or trade for something ... >>
^^^ that seems to be the line.
ie. somewhere between your tier 1 and tier 2.
if somebody elses widget is acquired, it becomes a non-widget when is going to kept (in the collection).
if/when it goes back on the market, it is again a widget.
extremely rare in certain high conditions. Further, some widgets come ugly and
truly nice looking coins can be considered very scarce. When we fine tune the
dividing line, we see, increasingly, that it becomes harder and harder to give absolute
definitions with out a myriad of caveats and exceptions to any general statement. That is
where education, experience and a little brain power, come into play.
Camelot
<< <i>my widgets are coins that i have no emotional attachment to, and will be willing to sell or trade for something >>
While still not perfect, I would say that's the best definition I've heard for it yet.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.