Shoot out at the commem corral-----stunning

Justacommeman · August 19, 2011 2:50PM

Stunning auction results at Stacks-Bowers.......Monster toned commems are alive and well. These were awesome and I'm glad I got a chance to view them. MJ

Hugo 66 $34,500 40X sheet
Alabama 65 $28,750 25 X sheet
Missouri 64+ $18,400
Rhode Island 67+ $16,100

lcoopie · August 19, 2011 3:00PM

how about just nicely toned commems?

BG · August 19, 2011 3:07PM

WOW!!!

I'm very happy with this Alabama for much less:

braddick · August 19, 2011 3:42PM

<< how about just nicely toned commems? >>

In my opinion, that is really all those above are.

Justacommeman · August 19, 2011 4:18PM

<< 

<< how about just nicely toned commems? >>

In my opinion, that is really all those above are. >>

Hugo's, Alabama's, Missouri's and RI's are extremely difficult commems to come by with attractive toning as these prices realized may suggest. I think the Alabama, Missouri and Hugo pictured in the OP post maybe in the top 2-5% for their respective issues. MJ

agentjim007 · August 19, 2011 4:26PM

I viewed also, those were some of my favorites. How about a MS65 Lincoln @ $8600. I thought I had a chance with a bid of $1500 (laugh in my face).

thisnamztaken · August 19, 2011 8:16PM

Love the obverse toning on the Missouri!!

llafoe · August 19, 2011 9:15PM

Purdy!

25x and 40x guide... and people here were complaining about moderns selling at 1x guide.

curly · August 19, 2011 9:19PM

I had an agent snag lot #1216 out of the Guttag Collection for me.

(one of you computer smart brothers link it up for me, please)

keyman64 · August 19, 2011 10:14PM

For the Hugo 43 are graded higher with hundreds in the same grade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
For the Alabama 2x2 there are 88 graded higher and hundreds in the same grade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
For the Missouri there are 277 graded higher!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is INSANE!

A FOOL AND HIS MONEY.....

TheCoinGeezer · August 19, 2011 10:20PM

<< Stunning auction results at Stacks-Bowers.......Monster toned commems are alive and well. These were awesome and I'm glad I got a chance to view them. MJ

Hugo 66 $34,500 40X sheet
>>

Pretty coin but due to the several nicks on the bust on the right, I question the MS66 grading.

erickso1 · August 19, 2011 10:39PM

Here ya go Curly.

TONEDDOLLARS · August 19, 2011 10:48PM

i agree with Mr. commeman. these coins listed just do not come nicley toned. The pictures in the catalog and on the computer do not do justice to them.
For example I was bidding on a coin in the pre auction, it sold on the floor to Bob Campell ,which at the time I did not know. When I got to the show I saw the coin
in a case at his table. I informed him that I was the under bidder from the internet and that if I saw the coin in person I would havew bid much higher as it was a
wonderful looking coin. He won the coin for $2000 one bid over mine on the net. Bob told me he was prepared to go to $4000 for the coin as he felt it was really neat
and those this is why he quoted me $4600 for the coin, Passed but boy I wish I saw it in person, because he would have had to pay a lot moer for it.

So, these commems must be seen to realize just how nice they truely were . I marked each of them in my book to watch.

agentjim007 · August 19, 2011 10:54PM

That Hugo that sold for 40X sheet was an amazing coin and one of the few that I could tell was a special coin. With that said 40X face is insane to me but I'm guessing to the buyer it was chump change. Money flew around that show like it was only paper.

devious · August 19, 2011 11:15PM

This makes me happy.

agentjim007 · August 19, 2011 11:26PM

This makes me happy

Your welcome Mr. Guttag

devious · August 19, 2011 11:29PM

<< This makes me happy

Your welcome Mr. Guttag >>

Haha! No. I have some nice commemorative toners that I've picked up for pennies on the dollar in comparison to these prices.

Broadstruck · August 20, 2011 12:16AM

Are these coins from the family of New York coin dealer Julius Guttag

66WhiteFBL · August 20, 2011 12:22AM

How about $11,500.00 for the 1939-PDS PCGS MS66 Ark. Set,Lot 8513?

pocketpiececommems · August 20, 2011 12:24AM

I would rather have a PO-01

bulldozer · August 20, 2011 1:52AM

Saw those sparklers. Had to put my eye balls back in my head.

Overheard some dealers talking that the coins were 2 points undergraded. That makes some sense.

Congrats to who ever bought them. Never saw an Alabama with colors like that.

agentjim007 · August 20, 2011 2:01AM

Are these coins from the family of New York coin dealer Julius Guttag

yes

TomB · August 20, 2011 3:59AM

The coins in this set were superb and had amongst the best surfaces I have seen on classic commems. Images don't always pick up the pristine bloom on many of these coins, which can explain the ultra-aggressive bidding to a degree. However, I do not believe there will be a carry over affect on other commems that do not have these qualities since the Guttag coins just stood out so much from the crowd. I had originally attempted to purchase several of these for my site, but quickly realized the folly of that goal given my financial resources and instead was delighted to pick up three coins that I think might have flown a little under the radar.

johnny9434 · August 20, 2011 4:34AM

i like that missouri. sure does look real nice

SkyMan · August 20, 2011 5:35AM

Nice looking coins, but at those prices... WOW!!!

I'm glad you got to see them MJ. About 10ish years ago I got to see the MS67 Oregon that went for $69,000. My understanding is that it now is a 68. It was a GORGEOUS coin, but still... $69,000? I guess that people that bid like that have a serious chunk of disposable income.

jmski52 · August 20, 2011 8:04AM

Very pretty coins!

Money flew around that show like it was only paper.

I'd like to nominate this for POTD.

pennyannie · August 20, 2011 9:56AM

<< i agree with Mr. commeman. these coins listed just do not come nicley toned. The pictures in the catalog and on the computer do not do justice to them.
For example I was bidding on a coin in the pre auction, it sold on the floor to Bob Campell ,which at the time I did not know. When I got to the show I saw the coin
in a case at his table. I informed him that I was the under bidder from the internet and that if I saw the coin in person I would havew bid much higher as it was a
wonderful looking coin. He won the coin for $2000 one bid over mine on the net. Bob told me he was prepared to go to $4000 for the coin as he felt it was really neat
and those this is why he quoted me $4600 for the coin, Passed but boy I wish I saw it in person, because he would have had to pay a lot moer for it.

So, these commems must be seen to realize just how nice they truely were . I marked each of them in my book to watch. >>

If someone now pays 4600 for that coin they are brain dead. Had you not run it that far it may have sold for 1500 or less. I am sure it is a nice coin but not a 4600 coin.

BTW the 3 in the OP are nice, but the price seems steep. I am not that big a gambler.

Broadstruck · August 20, 2011 10:43AM

Just looking at the coins now and would have like to have seen the two below in hand

1924 Huguenot-Walloon Tercentenary. MS-67 $29,900
1935-D Arkansas Centennial. MS-67 $15,525

Wow pretty coins but crazy prices...

1918 Lincoln-Illinois Centennial. MS-65 $8,625
1925 Fort Vancouver Centennial. MS-65+ $6,900

Justacommeman · August 20, 2011 3:15PM

Laura was the buyer/agent for most of these coins including the Ark set. I'm taking for granted these were for a client. MJ

jhdfla · August 20, 2011 3:28PM

<< Laura was the buyer/agent for most of these coins including the Ark set. I'm taking for granted these were for a client. MJ >>

Unfortunately couldn't attend but was told they were "spectacular", and my friend uses that word to describe a coin very infrequently. It was mentioned about the buyer being buried in these coins. I say nay nay, there will ALWAYS be a buyer for this kind of material.

Justacommeman · August 20, 2011 3:33PM

<< 

<< Laura was the buyer/agent for most of these coins including the Ark set. I'm taking for granted these were for a client. MJ >>

Unfortunately couldn't attend but was told they were "spectacular", and my friend uses that word to describe a coin very infrequently. It was mentioned about the buyer being buried in these coins. I say nay nay, there will ALWAYS be a buyer for this kind of material. >>

This segment of the market is hotly contested especially on fresh material. By no means was Legend the only major entity that was bidding on these. Other industry commem heavyweights were active as well winning key lots. I was fortunate enough to have chatted with a few other commem guys at ANA about the Guttag lots. The opinion was that some of the key lots may have been under graded. Regardless of the grades on the slabs------- the coins speak for themselves. Congrat's to the new owners of these fabulous coins. MJ

keyman64 · August 20, 2011 4:17PM

PCGS also spoke for the coins at lower grades than these prices would/should support. At least 2 of these coins were graded recently since they have a +. As someone mentioned...thinking these are a full 2 points under graded...that would be pretty shocking. I guess not unheard of but very very shocking. Also a big gamble...but for those that have money growing on trees, what's the big deal I guess?

Unless it is part of the design that I am unaware of...the 2nd guy in the Hugo Obverse....does he have a bunch of gashes in his forehead? Is that acceptable for a 67 or 68?
For the Alabama, I see a good bit of chatter in the face and fields on the obverse. Is that good for a 67?
The Missouri has little marks everywhere on the obverse and reverse it seems. Is that normal for a 66 or 67?
The Rhode Island has a hit in the middle of the obverse and reverse but at least it is tied as finest graded for Pop Top.

They are nice coins for their grades I think but I just can't see them as being 2 points under-graded is all.

golfer72 · August 20, 2011 9:32PM

<< PCGS also spoke for the coins at lower grades than these prices would/should support. At least 2 of these coins were graded recently since they have a +. As someone mentioned...thinking these are a full 2 points under graded...that would be pretty shocking. I guess not unheard of but very very shocking. Also a big gamble...but for those that have money growing on trees, what's the big deal I guess?

Unless it is part of the design that I am unaware of...the 2nd guy in the Hugo Obverse....does he have a bunch of gashes in his forehead? Is that acceptable for a 67 or 68?
For the Alabama, I see a good bit of chatter in the face and fields on the obverse. Is that good for a 67?
The Missouri has little marks everywhere on the obverse and reverse it seems. Is that normal for a 66 or 67?
The Rhode Island has a hit in the middle of the obverse and reverse but at least it is tied as finest graded for Pop Top.

They are nice coins for their grades I think but I just can't see them as being 2 points under-graded is all. >>

You are right Keyman. No way these coins are undergraded. Everyone goes gaga over the color. It should not even factor into the grade. They are nice coins that appear correctly graded. The market can determine value as it has done. remember, eye appeal is subjective.

PerryHall · August 20, 2011 9:48PM

<<

For the Hugo 43 are graded higher with hundreds in the same grade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
For the Alabama 2x2 there are 88 graded higher and hundreds in the same grade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
For the Missouri there are 277 graded higher!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is INSANE!

A FOOL AND HIS MONEY..... >>

roadrunner · August 21, 2011 1:14AM

Take away the 1/16th inch wide band of toning around the periphery of that Hugo and you have a coin that looks like most every other original Hugo.
And that tiny patch of 1/8" inch vibrant green color by "in God we trust" might be 30%-50% of the coin's value. It's the only place on the obv where it stands out.

At least the 'Bama has toning over about half of its surfaces. I noted these were not stickered. Will these prices help convince the coin doctors to shift
more resources into toner commens knowing they can still fetch huge money without the extra review? Or will the sniffaleopagus foil these attempts?

Will toner commems be the next market to finally faulter where in the past prices never saw a retreat? I've seen it happen systematically for gem type coins,
then rarities, then moderns, then better date gold, then better date seated material in both circ and unc, and now toner Morgans. It seems one by one each market
sector is having to deal with the reality of prices that have never fallen before, starting to weaken. Of course the top of top pops will probably continue to distance themselves.
But we're talking only the top 1, 2 or 3 coins for a date, type, etc. After that, the REG set fever to own the very best falls off. The very best Alabama or Hugo in the world will
no doubt always have a home, just like the Mona Lisa. But there's no guarantee for 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th place. And if you're paying 20X bid, best to be 100% sure you just bought
the single finest #1 coin.

Vibrant luster and amazing color on commems have always compensated for minute marks. Any commem can have clean surfaces and be dullish. Very few have blasty luster
and monster color. Marks at that point, like on a toner Morgan are just bit players.

roadrunner

bulldozer · August 21, 2011 1:21AM

People! I saw the coins. The images are not accurate.

Even if they do not go up in grade, those were some of the neatest colored commems ever.

Why do people knock coins they have not seen?

Justacommeman · August 21, 2011 2:17AM

<< People! I saw the coins. The images are not accurate.

Even if they do not go up in grade, those were some of the neatest colored commems ever.

Why do people knock coins they have not seen? >>

Correct. TomB's post earlier in the thread summed it up nicely.

And oh, color me confused. Legend did not buy the Ark set. Now I'm curious on who did..........MJ

Justacommeman · August 21, 2011 2:36AM

<< Nice looking coins, but at those prices... WOW!!!

I'm glad you got to see them MJ. About 10ish years ago I got to see the MS67 Oregon that went for $69,000. My understanding is that it now is a 68. It was a GORGEOUS coin, but still... $69,000? I guess that people that bid like that have a serious chunk of disposable income. >>

That 67 Oregon you speak of now resides in a PCGS 68+ holder.............MJ

7Jaguars · August 21, 2011 2:38AM

Not understanding how the images are not accurate; how about they are misleading? There are no contact marks, and people can not be waylaid by toning? You really think PCGS is going to downgrade these by two points?
Anyway, viva la difference we are all entitled to our opinions...

Bear · August 21, 2011 2:50AM

I do not think people are knocking the coins, for they are indeed magnificent

in every way. The main question is this, how does one place a value on such coins.

10X, 20X, 40X or 100X. What is the limit to such madness in bidding? On a subsequent

sale, can the coin retrieve its purchase price? Only a very few individuals can afford to

play at such stratospheric altitudes. Why are some magnificent Commems priced at 40X

while other different, but equally beautiful, commems go for 12X or less? Some beautiful

Commems, but not quite equal to the eye boggling commems go for 1/12 to 2 or 3X. Many

times the differences are fairly narrow, who decides that this is the one and not the other?

CoinJunkie · August 21, 2011 3:04AM

<< That 67 Oregon you speak of now resides in a PCGS 68+ holder.............MJ >>

So, unless it's a better date, that means it's now "only" about 17x PCGS price guide,
which itself is usually "optimistic"...

Disclaimer: I'm not saying the coin is overvalued. As others have noted, when one
steps up big time for a common coin with uncommon color, it's a much bigger gamble
than buying known rarity.

keyman64 · August 21, 2011 4:11AM

It is interesting to see some version of a snobbish double standard. When poor people like me post a coin that I like or think is nice for the grade etc, people with a lot more money might chime in and question the intelligence behind a particular purchase. When the reverse situation comes into play like it does here when HITS on the coins are plainly visible...the photos all of a sudden to do not represent the coins at all it seems and the poor people are again the idiots.

Anyone else notice this?

Bear · August 21, 2011 4:22AM

Poor people like us, must be taught to know our place and mind our betters.

yellowkid · August 21, 2011 4:29AM

I had a bid in on one of the Hawaiian's, with a shot at the Hugo as a back up plan. That turned out to be a joke and I ended up with nothing. The Hugo is beautiful, but I can't figure that price for a 66, or any of the others MJ mentions.

It makes me think about what a comparable 67 Hugo would go for???

CoinJunkie · August 21, 2011 4:40AM

<< It makes me think about what a comparable 67 Hugo would go for??? >>

Not necessarily all that much more, as the price paid for these coins reflects the color
more so than the grade.

CommemDude · August 21, 2011 7:23AM

Excellent marketing and auction fever seem to have won out this time around.
I turned down a similar Huguenot PCGS66 at $ 6500 a few years ago and would still feel it was overpriced.
Any forum member who thinks these are reasonable market prices for color coins should grab their checkbook and meet me at my bank Monday morning

ChrisRx · August 21, 2011 7:30AM

keyman64 · August 21, 2011 7:49AM

<<

>>

Haven't seen that image before. I love the internet!

pennyannie · August 21, 2011 8:03AM

Nice coins, overpriced but the buyers bidding on them have plenty of money so value does not always matter. Plus a small handful of coins of this nature do not have to follow the rules of the majority.

My eariler comment was on the 2k coin now being 4600. i do not see it and Chrisrx pic comes to mind.

roadrunner · August 21, 2011 8:16AM

<< Overheard some dealers talking that the coins were 2 points undergraded. That makes some sense. >>

This kind of talk is always heard before auctions where fresh material hits the blocks. It then often becomes a contest to see who can bid the coin's the highest.
It's a win-win with everyone puffing out their chests for the next few days or weeks as they brag to their buddies on how good they did....until the grades
come back from the TPG's....then the stark realization often hits that they weren't as incredible as first thought. I remember when the NGC fatty "Silbermunzen"
seated halves were auctioned a few years ago. Dealers were competing to see who could take the biggest risk as to the highest grade possible. It was like this
bidding on raw coins at auction in 1988-89. When the grades came back from Silbermunzen there were a lot of disappointed folks I'm sure as no-brainer upgrades
became no-brainer losses.

Before every auction there will be dealers counting their eggs before they are hatched. Upgrades always seem more likely before you see the coin in your own light
or out of the holder in the bright lights at the TPG. I bet RYK is happy that he doesn't have to pay 20X to 40X for his dirty old gold.

roadrunner

Shoot out at the commem corral-----stunning

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