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Dick Osburn seated halves now sold at Rarities Night - and 4 of mine as well -
roadrunner
Posts: 28,374 ✭✭✭✭✭
So far through the 1858's and prices are quite unimpressive. A lot of these are NGC but even the PCGS coins are not bringing all that much.
Feels like 2002-2004 all over again. The 1855-s NGC MS67 saw little bidding action. It opened at $95K and closed at $100K bid. For some reason I sort of
expected a price in the $150K-$175K range. Finest known by 2 miles. It fetched $72,600 at the 1996 Pryor sale. The 1849/1849 in MS64 bid to $19K as a I recall.
Considering how rare that variety is that didn't seem like a ton of money for probably the finest known. The NGC 65 1841 at $7000 bid was a nice
looking fresh coin probably a 64+. This is about the best I've seen and I briefly owned the pop 1, highest graded PCGS 65 coin (a legit 64+). So in my mind the 1841
still hasn't been graded in legit "all there" 65. This one might have been the best of them. The $7000 bid indicated this was more than just a 64 coin. It could have been
finest currently graded. I liked it better than the PCGS MS65 that Pinnacle owned a few years ago. That 1841 was probably tried several times for an upgrade and eventually
made 65. Check the pops in 64 and you'll see there are a few too many 64's imo. I think of all the <$10K coins in this set the 1841 caught my eye as I'm a sucker for the pre-
1852 early dates. The 1851 in NGC MS65 was a decent coin imo and at the $13-15K price range probably was in the top 4-5 of pieces known. There's only 1 MS66.
Don't see a lot of action from the internet. Most everything is going to the floor. Maybe the real bidders are still at dinner? Did Heritage already pull too much money
out of the market? Seems that way. Of course most of these coins are not pop tops so that has some effect. Most are in the 62-64 range.
Well there's a strong one finally, $9K bid for an 1859-s CAC 64. That's good money imo since regular 64's are in the $4-5K range. Probably gonna take PCGS CAC and be a no
brainer coin to get some interest. If an NGC CAC has some eye appeal it will fetch good money. A 61-0 in 62 PL bid $6500 which seemed strong.
The 1870-cc NGC 62 went for $150K. The 70-cc only brought $39,600 at 1996 Pryor. A much better 4X gain vs the 55-s which didn't even double up in 15 yrs.
The 1870-s PCGS 64 CAC bid to $32,500. A hard date to find in legit 65. There may not be a legit 65. First runaway of the night. Someone must be thinking upgrade or 2 collectors
banging heads. As it turned out this was about the only coin in the collection that just kept on going. There are 2 PCGS MS65's out there so this seemed a bit odd.
The 1871-s in NGC MS65 I used to own. Bid to $4375. Auctioned previously in March 2009 for $6,037. Tonight sold for around $1K less. This coin sold for $5250 back in 2002. Not a good 9 yr track record. And this is a date that is hard to find in original no rub 64. This coin is a 64+ and very nice and original. Just some right obv field chatter from 65. Best one I'd
ever seen in hand with absolutely no rub and full satiny luster on orig surfaces. This variety has no drapery along with the mint mark partly obliterated from die prep.
1873-cc NA NGC 64 bid to $22,500. I seem to recall these going for $45-$50K in the boom years when labels sold the coin. Probably just a 63 coin.
1873-cc WA NGC 63 only reached in the $6K's....seems very cheap. Maybe it was only an AU/61 coin.
1874-cc NGC 64 went for $50K bid. That's a decent price compared to the earlier CC's...and a much tougher date overall, trailing only the 70-cc.
1876 PF 66 1876 with color - only bid to $3100. Have to think these would have done better with Heritage.
1878-cc PCGS 65 $42,500 bid - not bad w/o a sticker
1878-s PCGS 63 cac bid to $160,000. This was the only CAC coin among the expensive coins. Bidder 609 received light applause....well deserved.
1882 NGC MS67* - $8500 bid, not bad for an unstickered coin.
1883 PCGS MS66 with color - $5000
1884 NGC67 $9000 - also not bad for a white coin. The 3rd MS67 coin so far (55-s, 83, 84).
1888 PCGS MS66 cac - $5250
1889 PCGS MS66 cac with color - $6000 (color and sticker worked)
Note that of the 150 coins in this set, 3 of 83 NGC coins stickered (3.5%). The PCGS rate was around 39%. This assumes all were reviewed. The results speak for themselves.
If I was the consignor I'd not be happy. Maybe the mood was happier last week before the stock market tanked today. These prices remind me more of FUN Jan 2009 and Baltimore
March 2009 than summer ANA 2011. The 1855 half in NGC MS65 fetched something like $5500. That's a far cry from the top pop PCGS MS66 CAC of the same date that brought around
$54K earlier this year. Talk about huge gaps. Generally very disappointed with the prices of how the S mints did. Only the 70-s seemed to break that trend. This did not feel like the
bidding of a Platinum/Rarities night atmosphere even if it was the first one for B/S. My 4 halves come later tonight but these result don't give me a good feeling.
-Edited/corrected history on 1871-s half. Had it partly confused with the PCGS 65 I also used to own.
roadrunner
Feels like 2002-2004 all over again. The 1855-s NGC MS67 saw little bidding action. It opened at $95K and closed at $100K bid. For some reason I sort of
expected a price in the $150K-$175K range. Finest known by 2 miles. It fetched $72,600 at the 1996 Pryor sale. The 1849/1849 in MS64 bid to $19K as a I recall.
Considering how rare that variety is that didn't seem like a ton of money for probably the finest known. The NGC 65 1841 at $7000 bid was a nice
looking fresh coin probably a 64+. This is about the best I've seen and I briefly owned the pop 1, highest graded PCGS 65 coin (a legit 64+). So in my mind the 1841
still hasn't been graded in legit "all there" 65. This one might have been the best of them. The $7000 bid indicated this was more than just a 64 coin. It could have been
finest currently graded. I liked it better than the PCGS MS65 that Pinnacle owned a few years ago. That 1841 was probably tried several times for an upgrade and eventually
made 65. Check the pops in 64 and you'll see there are a few too many 64's imo. I think of all the <$10K coins in this set the 1841 caught my eye as I'm a sucker for the pre-
1852 early dates. The 1851 in NGC MS65 was a decent coin imo and at the $13-15K price range probably was in the top 4-5 of pieces known. There's only 1 MS66.
Don't see a lot of action from the internet. Most everything is going to the floor. Maybe the real bidders are still at dinner? Did Heritage already pull too much money
out of the market? Seems that way. Of course most of these coins are not pop tops so that has some effect. Most are in the 62-64 range.
Well there's a strong one finally, $9K bid for an 1859-s CAC 64. That's good money imo since regular 64's are in the $4-5K range. Probably gonna take PCGS CAC and be a no
brainer coin to get some interest. If an NGC CAC has some eye appeal it will fetch good money. A 61-0 in 62 PL bid $6500 which seemed strong.
The 1870-cc NGC 62 went for $150K. The 70-cc only brought $39,600 at 1996 Pryor. A much better 4X gain vs the 55-s which didn't even double up in 15 yrs.
The 1870-s PCGS 64 CAC bid to $32,500. A hard date to find in legit 65. There may not be a legit 65. First runaway of the night. Someone must be thinking upgrade or 2 collectors
banging heads. As it turned out this was about the only coin in the collection that just kept on going. There are 2 PCGS MS65's out there so this seemed a bit odd.
The 1871-s in NGC MS65 I used to own. Bid to $4375. Auctioned previously in March 2009 for $6,037. Tonight sold for around $1K less. This coin sold for $5250 back in 2002. Not a good 9 yr track record. And this is a date that is hard to find in original no rub 64. This coin is a 64+ and very nice and original. Just some right obv field chatter from 65. Best one I'd
ever seen in hand with absolutely no rub and full satiny luster on orig surfaces. This variety has no drapery along with the mint mark partly obliterated from die prep.
1873-cc NA NGC 64 bid to $22,500. I seem to recall these going for $45-$50K in the boom years when labels sold the coin. Probably just a 63 coin.
1873-cc WA NGC 63 only reached in the $6K's....seems very cheap. Maybe it was only an AU/61 coin.
1874-cc NGC 64 went for $50K bid. That's a decent price compared to the earlier CC's...and a much tougher date overall, trailing only the 70-cc.
1876 PF 66 1876 with color - only bid to $3100. Have to think these would have done better with Heritage.
1878-cc PCGS 65 $42,500 bid - not bad w/o a sticker
1878-s PCGS 63 cac bid to $160,000. This was the only CAC coin among the expensive coins. Bidder 609 received light applause....well deserved.
1882 NGC MS67* - $8500 bid, not bad for an unstickered coin.
1883 PCGS MS66 with color - $5000
1884 NGC67 $9000 - also not bad for a white coin. The 3rd MS67 coin so far (55-s, 83, 84).
1888 PCGS MS66 cac - $5250
1889 PCGS MS66 cac with color - $6000 (color and sticker worked)
Note that of the 150 coins in this set, 3 of 83 NGC coins stickered (3.5%). The PCGS rate was around 39%. This assumes all were reviewed. The results speak for themselves.
If I was the consignor I'd not be happy. Maybe the mood was happier last week before the stock market tanked today. These prices remind me more of FUN Jan 2009 and Baltimore
March 2009 than summer ANA 2011. The 1855 half in NGC MS65 fetched something like $5500. That's a far cry from the top pop PCGS MS66 CAC of the same date that brought around
$54K earlier this year. Talk about huge gaps. Generally very disappointed with the prices of how the S mints did. Only the 70-s seemed to break that trend. This did not feel like the
bidding of a Platinum/Rarities night atmosphere even if it was the first one for B/S. My 4 halves come later tonight but these result don't give me a good feeling.
-Edited/corrected history on 1871-s half. Had it partly confused with the PCGS 65 I also used to own.
roadrunner
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If these are leftovers then I'd like to see the main course.
roadrunner
I realized this after I posted, but couldn't imagine why he would sell his whole collection.
Just saw the 1859 25c PCGS PF66 cac cameo bid to $19K. Now that's strong. That would have been 67 money during the boom market.
The half dollar in the same grade bid to only $14K. All part of a very nice 1859 proof set.
The dollar in PF67 cameo cac went for $55K bid. Nice! Wow....a $100K seated proof set!
roadrunner
<< <i>Did he have reserve prices for each? >>
The majority of the coins were unreserved which only should have helped to generate bidder interest. Only the more expensive 5 figure coins were reserved (70-cc, 78-s, etc).
Maybe it's a sign that for the few people putting together sets of mid-grade MS seated halves, there are plenty of coins to go around. The demand for quality problem-free circs
of better dates is pretty intense...as is the demand for the pop tops in MS/PF. The PF 67 PCGS cacs (1879-1890 50c) in the Heritage session went for big money. Most were pop 1-3.
That's the success formula. Lot pop, massive eye appeal, high grade, and stickered. Anything else is more of a struggle unless an outright rarity on its own.
This is for Realone: $10,500 bought the 1829 half dime NGC 64 proof
1837 half dime PCGS MS67 cac fetched $13K bid. In the boom days that was a $20K-$25K coin. Can't be too many of these in 67 cac.
1852-0 half dime in NGC 65 PL cac fetched a rather measly $8,000.
1805 dime PCGS MS66 cac - bid to $75,000. Seems like good money.
1805 dime NGC MS66 - bid to $30,000.
1805 dime PCGS MS64 - bid to $15,000
1831 dime PF66 cac - bid to $68,000
1834 dime PCGS MS67 - bid to $26,000
1839-0 dime PCGS MS66 cac - bid to $15,000 - about 45% of what the MS67 fetched a few years ago. A good price.
1858-s dime PCGS MS62 cac $14,000
1859-0 dime NGC MS68 opened $11,000....closed same
1859-s dime PCGS MS65 cac $93,000 ex-Jim
1865-s dime PCGS MS64 cac 32,500 good price. Head mostly flat too.
1871-cc dime NGC MS62 $37,500
1804 25c PCGS MS63 cac $160,000 - met all the conditions - decent based on photo
1815 25c PCGS MS65 cac - $36,000 - tough to find the large size bust quarter in all there 65.
1867-s 25c PCGS MS63 ex Auction '86 at around $3-$4 and Stacks Davis-Graves $19,000 bid
1872-s 25c NGC MS63 $18,000
1898-0 25c PCGS MS66 cac toner - unimprovable on eye appeal - $22,500
1909-0 25c PCGS MS66 cac ogh - $32,500 nice runaway price after it stalled in the teens - probably someone thinking upgrade (if it were XF it would have brought more...lol)
1975 no S dime PF68 PCGS cac - $300,000 bid......sweeeet.
roadrunner
My notes do reflect that the 59-s, in particular, was choice.
Tom
That's a good way to put it. The market is not warranting much these days.
Yeah, the 1859-s half in 64 was obviously a premium coin essentially the next grade up. The 2 monster Eliasberg coins are in the 67/68 range.
roadrunner
Thanks for taking the time and effort!
But I figured at least 2 of them would probably struggle and I was right. They did ok for what they were. Guess I was hoping for some lightning in a bottle.
Oddly, 3 had no reserves yet the 4th coin was bought back by me as bidder #252....the same # that "bought" one of the unreserved coins. ????
I'll be curious as to how that turned out. Really don't care if I get them all back as they brought basically next grade lower pq money.
1877-cc 50c NGC MS67 - one of the 4 coins I consigned to the sale. No reserve. When it opened at $2000 I nearly gagged. And it stopped dead there at 64 money!
My heart was in my mouth for about 3 seconds. Then it got a quick jump to $5000 as someone woke up. It quicky went to $9,000 in about 10 seconds. Then from there
2 bidders slugged it out to $15K....pause....then a slow $1000 back and forth all the way to $19K. The next guy went $20K. Not to be outdone the other guy cut the bid
at $21,250. That was it, too rich for the underbidder. That took it to $24,748 with the juice. I surely would have sold the coin for under $20K if anyone had approached me on
it. Back during the market heat of 2007 the pop 1 PCGS 67 coin fetched $42K to a Legend customer. I figured my coin was worth close to $30K. Tom Bender countered my agent
at $22K or $25K, I forget exactly what....and I passed based on what the other coin brought. Would not surprise me if Tom Bender was a bidder on this tonight since he missed out on
the other coin 4 yrs ago (he was an underbidder then). So 4 yrs later in a much weaker market I'm happy to get $20K+ for it after commish. It makes up for the lousy prices on the
other 3 coins. It's a process....and a slow one at that. Sometimes coins aren't all that easy. Often times when I've consigned coins, a few strong ones countered the weak ones.
The only time that doesn't work so well is when the market really stinks....like back in early 2009.
When I bought this 1877-cc at 2002 FUN it was based on the fact that Spectrum had the PCGS 67 at that time and was offering it for $17,500. I remember them tossing the coin at me
across the table when I asked to see it...lol. At the same show for $5K less I took the NGC coin, still a pop 1. While I knew the coin was not a solid 67 at the time, it was very fresh,
blasty and the only NGC 67 graded. In the end, the PCGS coin was the better deal seeing as it's pop 1 CAC. That same coin went back and forth from NGC to PCGS for some reason. I recall an auction around 2002 or 2003 where that same coin fetched $11,000...less than I paid for my coin! But from there it went up almost 4X in 5 yrs. There had to be some very determined bidders to push that to $42,000 at auction around 2007. Top pop CC's are always interesting. There are only like 6-8 TPG MS67 or better cc halves. They don't grow on trees. When Dick's MS64 77-cc sold for only $2000 I was very worried. I thought his coin was a very clean and orig 64, a higher end coin imo at least per the photo. If you compare the 2 lots they had the same general copper/apricot toning. They probably came from the same hoard decades ago. I've seen a number of CC halves with this general look. My 1877-cc half came out of the huge Evergreen collection. That set had a dozen, two or three NGC MS67 seated halves. A lot of those coins got a rap for being and mottled and uglyish. The 77-cc while deeper toned and mottled, was ok on the eye appeal. The luster easily blew through the toning. I hope the new owner enjoys it as much as I did.
roadrunner
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
In looking at the PR's I'm not 100% sure if my 1862 NGC MS67 cac half sold. I had a reserve on that one of $19K and it was listed as sold to bidder 252 for $19K.
Since my 1838 RE half NGC 65 sold for $10K to bidder #252, I think it went. That's a shame too since the coin is the equivalent of most of the MS67 PCGS
no motto halves out there. There are about 6-8 PCGS 67 pieces of which only 2 are CAC'd. My coin was one of about 35-40 NGC 67's of which ONLY 2 have CAC'd.
It's a real coin. It has been sent in 4X for cross and failed each time. Every 2yrs or so it went in. I've looked at a lot of MS67 NGC halves over the years, and agreed
with very few of them. This was one of the only ones I felt was an all there MS67. When this shows up in a PCGS MS67 holder or a MS67+ NGC
holder, I'm probably going to blow my top. I would have thought that Gene Gardner would have been interested in a coin like this for his set. If the coin was bought
back here, my next step was to crack it out since even as a PCGS MS66+, it would be the finest graded at pcgs. It bid to a lowly $19K. In a PCGS MS67 CAC holder it will be
worth $30K. Note that the other NGC MS67 CAC half (1864) sold for $35K earlier this year. This coin was of similar quality. That 1864 sold for a whopping $64,000 in 2008
when Joe Thomas got bid up. At $19K I'm pretty disappointed in my 1862. I hope it was a mixup and it comes back to me. When I set reserves I really wanted to put it down
at $22K to $25K but B/S squeezed me down on it. In fact they called me a couple of weeks ago to see if they could squeeze me down even lower on the reserve. I had told my
B/S agent that I in no way did I want to sell the coin for reserve but that it would be mind boggling to me if it didn't at least get to the mid $20's. CAC has
seen to approve only 4 MS67 NM seated halves. This was the cheapest by far that any of them have sold for. The other 3 have price histories of $32K to $64K during the
2006-2008 period. And as mentioned earlier, the ex-Joe Thomas 1864 MS67 NGC cac fetched $36K earlier this year. And that coin is by no means without flaws.
Bill Shamhart loved this 1862 when it came through CAC at the 2nd CoinFest show in 2008. Would not surprise me if he ended up buying it tonight. Unfortunately I was not
a seller in 2008 but should have been. During the 2007/2008 market I was given "soft" offers of $35K by a couple of people. But other 67's had been breaking the $40K's so I held
off....that was a mistake. NGC has lost a lot of mojo since 2008. It has definitely affected decent CAC coins like this one.
roadrunner
keoj
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
For years i have tried to talk myself into buying seated halves like some that crossed the block tonight after seeing Osborn at some of the regional shows years ago. To me when you get over the 5k per coin and up price tag you need to really understand coins and the players in the market and run in a circle of friends that play on that level. I have the funds to play in that playground but have always felt i would be the new guy that others would use as a dumping ground for their benifit.
I get around alot on a daily basis and nice quality stuff is everywhere but not selling. I am not just talking coins but mid level guns, high end powersports, and other areas that people making 150k and more a year used to be a good source of buyers. I do not see it getting better anytime soon and i may be dead wrong on all accounts. In the last 90 days i have bought a 2010 Kawasaki Teryx with 2.5k of added aftermarket add ons and 35 hours for 5k, a s-10 truck for 500 bucks, a Lincoln Limo that the Bass family probably used as recent as 6 months ago for 5 months worth of rent, a few decent watches for 1500 bucks and some killer rifles for 5k that should have brought 4 or 5 times that!!! And more.
As with most things in life you ( roadrunner) have probably had way more good selling days than off days.
It will be interesting to see what these coins that sold tonight bring down the road in 2,5,10 and 20 years.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
I haven't bought any "significant" coins since about 2004. And these 4 were about the last of them. I'll continue to sit back and observe how type coins fare. They will have to get a lot cheaper before I re-enter again. At least you know where you stand at all times with generic gold and bullionesque coins. Dick's set offered collectors a lot of better dates for not all that much money tonight. The typical coin was selling in the $2K to $4K range for much better better date P,O, and S mints in 63 to 64 grade.
roadrunner
<< <i>Is it just me or is it impossible to tell if a coin has sold or not met reserve? >>
I don't think it's just you. Watched the live version through hundreds of lots and I don't recall seeing any lots sold to book. Every lot seemed to go to a bidder number. Could be that those bidder numbers include the "reserves of consignors" bidding on their own behalf. During the Heritage sale it was quite clear that many lots were going unsold.
roadrunner
77-cc. But the 77-cc realized more than the 1862....who woulda thunk? Guess that shows the niche value of CC collecting. Now I get to scan the PCGS and NGC pops reports to
see how long before PCGS gains a 67 and NGC loses one. I figure it will be within 3-6 months. I've seen this drill go down a number of times with some of my ex-coins.
The 77-cc bailed out my consignment and overall I did a bit better than I figured I would. So in that respects I did well. Only the 62 half was a major disappointment. And once
I talk to my peeps down the road I'll find who bid on it and why it brought what it did. While I could be wrong, maybe a couple of dealers got together to split the coin rather than
run each other up. And if some heavy retail hitters stayed home, they would have had free reign to do that. There's essentially ZERO downside on that coin at $20K since it is the
finest known/graded (pop 1 cac) and PCGS has no 67's. Anyone building a REG set of top seated halves will have to have this coin someday (ie like TDN with his dollars). The upside
to the coin as PCGS pop 1 is probably $10K min. Thats a $10K upside to a few hundred dollars downside in grading fees. Even if put into a 66+ holder, it will still be finest known.
Of the 4 currently graded 67NM cac halves, 2 of them appear dipped, and the 3rd appears to have secondary toning. From what I can tell the 1862 is the only certain original surfaces
coin of that group.
roadrunner
This hobby normally falls short from when the kiddies get out of school until the return do to outdoor activities, vacations, etc.
I think there may have been some usually big buyers on the sidelines through this session for whatever reasons.
<< <i>There are the right seated halves and the wrong ones.
On a 50/50 chance i seem to fall on the wrong side.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>ANA or not it is a summer auction, wouldn't Jan FUN generally be a better venue as there's more attendance
This hobby normally falls short from when the kiddies get out of school until the return do to outdoor activities, vacations, etc. >>
January FUN is not a slam dunk in a down market. 2009 and 2010 weren't exactly banner FUN auctions. I think it's still the market and
buyers are very fussy with a very small % of coins meeting their criteria. The fresh money flowing in is probably looking at PCGS cac coins.
I don't think the stock market's performance the past 2 weeks, and especially yesterday was much of a help. I monitored the PR's from the
Heritage session last week and they were generally quite strong for anything CAC'd. But anything else did seem very spotty and in many cases
just cheap. Summer ANA auction in prime time has historically been a good venue. I think Heritage going first hurt. And they run a better
auction with a lot stronger internet bidding, even if some of those bidders might be dealers holed up in their hotel rooms across the street
Chicago probably isn't as good a location as Orlando, NY, Southern California, Baltimore and Philly. But it's not a bad venue as Central States
seems to pull a good show and auction every year. And a FUN show in a different city than Orlando probably changes the picture as well.
There are more variables than one can count. But the most dependable variable is people spending their money freely and loosely on coins across
the spectrum. Well, we haven't had that environment since July/August 2008. If gold were not up strongly the past 2-1/2 yrs, the coin market
would probably be totally dead with many B&M's closing their doors. Instead, more shops have probably opened up just to buy/sell bullion.
roadrunner
<< <i>But the most dependable variable is people spending their money freely and loosely on coins across
the spectrum. Well, we haven't had that environment since July/August 2008. If gold were not up strongly the past 2-1/2 yrs, the coin market
would probably be totally dead with many B&M's closing their doors. Instead, more shops have probably opened up just to buy/sell bullion.
roadrunner >>
Ahhhh the White elephant in the room and what I too suspect is the nasty truth. I hear so many people thinking that coins have been a safe haven in these problematic times but what I really think has happened is the dealers have been artificially kept afloat with bullion proceeds and the rare coin market is more tied to bullion then most people think due to the incestuous nature of coin & bullion dealing. There is then a reciprocal trickle down to the collector side too as most serious collectors have made money on their coins allowing them to chase better (ie more expensive) and then in turn them being flush with coin funds smiler to the bullion laden dealers, further driving up profits, prices and expectations as they all chase the same coins which then gives the impression of more liquidity to chase more coins driving up more prices even in the face of logic and sound economic principles when the rest of the world is in a different environment.
It is the definition of a bubble!!
I'm still trying to get a handle on that 3.5% NGC sticker rate. More than 10X different than the PCGS hit rate.
Thanks for the kind PMs/replies from various members. Much to learn from all this.
roadrunner
<< <i>
<< <i>I suspect a second thread about NGC losing its mojo would bring many comments. From what I have seen, NGC coins seem to sell now for the next grade down's price in many cases. In early federal coinage, most buyers either want PCGS or PCGS + CAC. Even NGC + CAC does not always equal PCGS without CAC. >>
but doesn't the above show the ignorance of many a collector thinking that a pcgs slabbed coin is better than an ngc slabbed coin and the ignorance of many a dealer knowing that pcg slabbed coins sells better than a ngc slabbed coin.
If no one is really going to buy the coin and not the holder then numismatics is going in the opposite direction in a fierce and downhill way.
i understand that raodrunner reports his findings which are cuttingly accurate, that pcgs coins were sell faster and stronger than their ngc counterparts but it is a bad message that he delivers and one that should wake up all, if the majority continues to follow and perpetuate this trend the legitimacy of the hobby is in danger and is also in question. >>
A lot depends on the grade and series. RE CBHs, NGC has something like 3X the # of coins in MS 65 holders than PCGS. The NGC coins I've seen in this grade imo are 1/2 to one full point lower than their PCGS counterparts. They are priced accordingly. This has been the case for more than a decade.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Agree 100%. But I struggle when an NGC coin is stickered and has demonstrated that it is the equal of the "other" coins yet still sells for far less. Holder bias is real. And
El Contador's example only gives more ammo for that to continue. I recall Jim Swan telling me back in 2002 to only buy one brand, the same one as his REG set. But I thought
that properly selected coins would always carry more weight than the holder. Well, that worked ok up until around 2008. Different ball game since then now that the footballs have
highlighted the difference. One could go out on to any bourse floor and pick 100 NGC mint state seated coins at random and end up with at least 4 that would sticker.
The fact that MS67 NGC NM seated halves outnumber PCGS ones by around 5X is another example. And that's why any old NGC 67 sells for about 1/2 what a PCGS coin would bring.
But note that they are equal in number when it comes to stickered 67's (just 2 each).
roadrunner
<< <i>well i am going to choose my path, i have a great percentage of my coin sin NGC old no line fatties and the smaller amount in PCGS old green holders and then a smattering in newer pcgs and ngc holders. Mark Goodman will shoot them in mid september and i will show them here and challenge anyone that the the older holdered coins especially the ngc are the best you have ever seen. if and when they are ever auctioned if the public were to discount those fatties i would be shocked but again i will be dead anyway so who cares
Been there done that...... twice at auction since 2009. Same result. Lesson learned. Don't fight City Hall.
Buy the coin....but don't forget the holder either.
roadrunner
The "dark" spot on Lib's cheek for the 1862 half is a scrape and not high point oxidation. It appears more shiny than the rest of the coin in hand.
There are 3 sets of clash marks on the rev of the 1862 and two on the obverse as I recall. Note also the massive "halo" effect that rings the eagle
and gives it a plateaued effect. That is often seen on mid-19th century seated halves. The 1862 is far cleaner than the 77-c and with the luster
much more booming. The 1862 has luster pools somewhat like the obverse of Barber halves and less of the normally seen cartwheel effect. Not sure
why or how that is but the luster is unlike most anything that is typically seen in gem seated halves. It's not a subject I've seen anyone ever discuss.
The 77-cc probably has a more attractive or less-neutral toning scheme with that deeper coppery look. It's also better struck.
Both coins came from the same collection and were stored in paper flips for decades until the collection was slabbed about 10 yrs ago.
The higher resolution images below each photo shows them in a better light. In my mind the 1862 is hands down the finer coin, and also finest graded for date.
So it's pretty incredible to me that the 77-cc realized a higher price. It just might be that the smaller world of "CC" collectors pushed this over the top while
the set demand for gem seated halves is not yet there. I know of people building gem sets of half dimes, dimes and quarters but not halves. Maybe there are
1 or 2. And maybe they already have a MS66 1862 half.
1862 half
1877-cc half
roadrunner