Are collector markups higher than dealer markups?

RYK · July 20, 2011 12:56PM

Do you think it is reasonable for a collector to purchase a coin on Heritage and mark it up 63% to sell it on the BST a month later (and 50% higher than PCGS price guide)? That is a higher markup than I have ever seen from a dealer on a recent auction coin (perhaps excepting a multiple upgrade). Does the seller think that his fellow forum members just fell off the turnip truck?

Moldnut · July 20, 2011 1:03PM

Asking is one thing, getting is another. There are many ebay wins that are on the BST for much more now.

blu62vette · July 20, 2011 1:03PM

Dont forget ownership adds between 1 and 20 points to the grade. There are some collectors you just can't buy from.

joebb21 · July 20, 2011 1:11PM

Coins fall through the cracks at major auctions all the time.
How much through could be be debated, but knowledge is power and he who knows (collector) is more than entitled to flash his "cherrypick" for a 63% markup.

Yes- I think its very reasonable and very fair.

realone gave a great example.

Knowledge=power.

Coinosaurus · July 20, 2011 1:13PM

If a dealer had the same coin it would probably be a 163% markup.

RYK · July 20, 2011 1:14PM

<< Coins fall through the cracks at major auctions all the time.
How much through could be be debated, but knowledge is power and he who knows (collector) is more than entitled to flash his "cherrypick" for a 63% markup.

It happens all the time >>

There's no cherrypick. It's a humdrum coin. Same coin, same holder. No sticker, no variety, no added value of any kind. No dip, no alteration of any kind.

Edit: Oh, and just because you now work for the Evil Empire, it does not mean that you can school me in MY area of interest.

COALPORTER · July 20, 2011 1:33PM

How do you know it is NOT a dealer? I know a dealer or two that does this same practice. I know a coin I was outbid on 3 years ago and it is still in the same dealer's inventory at 3x the price he paid at auction. Oh, he did have it up graded 1 grade a PCGS and has the
ethics (which is also very bizarre?) to state this in his discription.
Even at this, the coin is grossly overpriced in his inventory - that's
why he has it for 3+ years

I guess the bigger question is how could Heritage let such an obvious coin "fall in the cracks". I bet the only person more peed
that me is the consigner. (a 20K plus coin selling for 7 K???

EagleEye · July 20, 2011 1:38PM

If it is a low pop coin, the PCGS price guide is likely using the auction result in question, we don't know if both are low. Is it a heavily traded coin?

Spooly · July 20, 2011 1:50PM

You can easily pay 100% over price guide for a great PQ coin...... and it be totally worth it.

50% off a ugly coin..... well its still a ugly coin.

RYK · July 20, 2011 1:53PM

<< If it is a low pop coin, the PCGS price guide is likely using the auction result in question, we don't know if both are low. Is it a heavily traded coin? >>

It is a scarce, low demand coin. It sold in-line for what one would expect for the grade, based on similar coins trading this year and last.

I know if a dealer tried to mark up a coin 63%, the forum would raise hell over it. Imagine if it were Legend! It would be a 200 post thread.

COALPORTER · July 20, 2011 2:03PM

^^^You mean you have never seen a coin go from holder N and reappear, dipped, in holder P, one grade higher AND at least 100%
mark-up? Happens all the time.

OnlyGoldIsMoney · July 20, 2011 2:04PM

<< 

<< If it is a low pop coin, the PCGS price guide is likely using the auction result in question, we don't know if both are low. Is it a heavily traded coin? >>

It is a scarce, low demand coin. It sold in-line for what one would expect for the grade, based on similar coins trading this year and last.

I know if a dealer tried to mark up a coin 63%, the forum would raise hell over it. Imagine if it were Legend! It would be a 200 post thread.

>>

Its nice but not 63% more than Heritage price paid nice.

stman · July 20, 2011 2:14PM

Forum members can do no wrong. All are looking out for the next guy. The PM's can be entertaining as well. Not that board members would take a shot at another board member. Heh Heh

Mowgli · July 20, 2011 2:44PM

A well known and not inexpensive dealer bought an R-5 coin at the most recent Heritage auction and has it listed for a mere 20% over what he paid (all costs) at auction. It is much less percentage wise than I would have expected but he also paid more than double the PCGS price guide.

MidLifeCrisis · July 20, 2011 2:54PM

If you don't agree with the mark-up, don't buy the coin.

Why the thread? If you want to go after the collector for pricing the coin so high, then name the seller and tell us about the coin, with a link to the Heritage auction. In other words, make your case with specific details.

You should know that collectors and dealers are free to price their coins at whatever they want. And I would not be surprised to hear about Legend or many other big name dealers having similar mark-ups on some of their coins over the years. Sure a small mark-up should generally be expected in line with the rest of the market, but a big score now and then is how real money is made.

RedTiger · July 20, 2011 3:25PM

The thread is in poor taste. In general, it is bad manners to comment on someone else's BST pricing or quality on the U. S. coin forum. Exceptions might be made for comments about fakes, or someone who has repeatedly failed to delivered coins, or repeatedly avoided payments or bounced checks.

Given the parameters, it would appear that it is a dealer, at least a part-time dealer. Most collectors don't look to buy coins on Heritage, and then look to flip them a month later on BST. The collectors that do, tend to be wearing a dealer hat from time to time. More than a few folks list their BST coins for sale at retail plus pricing. A few even move them at those prices. For the most part, it is none of my business.

RYK · July 20, 2011 10:31PM

The thread is in poor taste. In general, it is bad manners to comment on someone else's BST pricing or quality on the U. S. coin forum. Exceptions might be made for comments about fakes, or someone who has repeatedly failed to delivered coins, or repeatedly avoided payments or bounced checks.

How is it poor taste? I did not mention the seller or the item. It could have been listed 6 hours ago, 6 days ago, or 6 weeks ago. Not only that, it is common practice here to pick apart any coin offered for sale on a dealer website. Is the BST exempt from such practice and sacred?

At any rate, it is not a new phenomenon. If Legend buys a coin at auction and lists the same coin (perhaps with an added sticker) for 15.1% over the final auction price, all hell breaks loose. However, I routinely see collectors buy a coin at fair market value at a public venue for x and then mark it up 50% or more and take shots at their fellow forum members on the BST.

Broadstruck · July 20, 2011 10:47PM

I once very rapidly paid a fellow member $600 for a coin I missed at $100 as I know even on a rainy day I can sell it for $1500+

BillJones · July 20, 2011 10:52PM

The price paid by the collector at auction is irrelevant except when he or she is reporting their income taxes. What counts is the current market value of the piece. If the collector is asking too much then knowledgeable collectors and dealers will pass. If not, then it will sell. This is the nature of supply and demand and the market system.

Longacre · July 20, 2011 10:55PM

If an auction represents a perfect market, then in theory there should not be any subsequent markup (certainly not immediately).

In general, although collectors may know more about coins on a coin by coin basis, I think that dealers know the market and prices far better. Therefore, Longacre would be delighted to pay a 163% markup to a dealer, but would be disgusted at paying 163% to a common collector.

Justacommeman · July 20, 2011 11:14PM

<< If an auction represents a perfect market, then in theory there should not be any subsequent markup (certainly not immediately).

In general, although collectors may know more about coins on a coin by coin basis, I think that dealers know the market and prices far better. Therefore, Longacre would be delighted to pay a 163% markup to a dealer, but would be disgusted at paying 163% to a common collector. >>

MJ

coinhunters · July 21, 2011 12:00AM

There is a terrible mis-conception among many collectors today with regards to prices asked by both Dealers and generally, astute collectors. While more often than not when selling or buying less than mint state specimens, one can usually find a coin at or just slightly above the published greysheet prices. When we get into the mint state coins it's a different ball game. Many folks they should be able to buy at the prices quoted or just slightly above. That is just unrealistic. Even the wholesale prices quoted don't address the current market prices, depending upon this issue, the price could very well be multiple times that listed price.

RedTiger · July 21, 2011 12:09AM

<< The thread is in poor taste. In general, it is bad manners to comment on someone else's BST pricing or quality on the U. S. coin forum. Exceptions might be made for comments about fakes, or someone who has repeatedly failed to delivered coins, or repeatedly avoided payments or bounced checks.

How is it poor taste? I did not mention the seller or the item. It could have been listed 6 hours ago, 6 days ago, or 6 weeks ago. Not only that, it is common practice here to pick apart any coin offered for sale on a dealer website. Is the BST exempt from such practice and sacred?

At any rate, it is not a new phenomenon. If Legend buys a coin at auction and lists the same coin (perhaps with an added sticker) for 15.1% over the final auction price, all hell breaks loose. However, I routinely see collectors buy a coin at fair market value at a public venue for x and then mark it up 50% or more and take shots at their fellow forum members on the BST. >>

You're turning it into a Legend thread. That has nothing to do with your poor manners. In general, it is bad form to pick apart another members BST ad, named or unnamed. It would be one thing if another person started the thread asking a question about spreads and markups that might typically appear on BST or other venues and you replied with the information. It is another to start the thread in the controversial manner in which the first post in the thread is presented.

The person with the ad(s), certainly knows that you are writing about them. Threads like this create animosity when for the most part, it is none of your business or my business, what someone else charges or what they paid. Again, those behaving as you say tend to be part-time dealers. Collectors as I define them, don't tend to routinely buy on one venue and then advertise for sale on another. So the subject line might well be: part-time dealer marks up coin 63% -- dog bites man. I don't see how it has much to with collectors vs. dealers. To me, that is a straw man you set up for your own purposes and agenda.

Pricing behavior has been discussed at length in other recent threads in a less confrontational, more educational manner. Yes, some dealers will look to buy as cheap as possible and then price as high as possible, others work more in the middle range. The spread between low wholesale and full retail is often 300%. That Heritage coin might well have been bought by that Heritage seller at 1/2 of the hammer price from someone else in a bulk deal. Would that bother you too? That another person, perhaps a full time coin dealer with a store front made 100% on a coin? I tend to defend the dealers, because very few are forced to buy or sell. It is a hobby, and prices are unregulated. A single coin will tend to trade at a very wide range of prices, from low wholesale on up to full boat retail. Sellers can ask for what they want. If the price is out of line for the quality of the coin, they won't get it. People don't need a price-nanny to tell them. (The exception might be telemarketing customers who would do well with a coin pricing nanny.)

Yes, I see the BST as somewhat sacred, even though I rarely do business over there. As someone else put it, it hopefully is the last refuge for gentlemen and women, that act with honor, that stand by their word. Yes, more than a few sellers ask for retail plus for the coins, and some offer very low when they offer to buy, but those things are going to happen even with gentle folk.

RYK · July 21, 2011 12:25AM

Yes, I see the BST as somewhat sacred...

Well, I used to see it that way, as well. Everyday, I see collectors taking shots at one another over there in ways that dealers would get fried for doing so. Relationships develop on the forum and folks let their guard down, so they can be gutted by their friends. That's your idea of good manners?

coinandcurrency242 · July 21, 2011 12:28AM

I see on ebay how some dealers mark up some coins alot! People have to make a living somehow I guess!

MidLifeCrisis · July 21, 2011 1:40AM

Knowledge of the price history of a particular coin can get you into the ball park, just like the various price guides that are out there.

But even as much as we like to cite past auction records as a great resource when looking to determine the value of a particular coin, they cannot tell you exactly how much a specific coin should be valued at.

When it comes to specifics, how much I paid for a coin is not relevant when I'm selling it. The only thing that is relevant is the price point at which the buyer and I both agree.

Catbert · July 21, 2011 1:48AM

<< When it comes to specifics, how much I paid for a coin is not relevant when I'm selling it. The only thing that is relevant is the price point at which the buyer and I both agree. >>

For many collectors and dealers, what they paid for the coin is relevant to how much they want to sell it for, but like anything else, the market will dictate the true value of the coin.

RYK · July 21, 2011 2:06AM

<< 

<< Knowledge of the price history of a particular coin can get you into the ball park, just like the various price guides that are out there.

But even as much as we like to cite past auction records as a great resource when looking to determine the value of a particular coin, they cannot tell you exactly how much a specific coin should be valued at.

When it comes to specifics, how much I paid for a coin is not relevant when I'm selling it. The only thing that is relevant is the price point at which the buyer and I both agree. >>

I think if referring back to my example, the 1802 10c with cud. If it were listed at the same auction house a month later for 3x what I paid for it the month before, I would probably here about it ie in a negative way. But if I paid 3x for it and then listed it for the same or10-15% more no one would blink. I think human nature just has a problem with the quick flip or a quick rip............people just can't digest paying a lot more than the previous person........the price paid before is irrelevant with certain particular coins under certain particular situations.........every case is an individual case and should not be lumped together and generalized. >>

I think that your example is unusual, but it is a case in which you, as a specialist, recognized a variety and special qualities of a coin, thereby unlocking its value. Getting a coin stickered, crossed, upgraded, and, sometimes, even conserved, are all examples of adding value to the coin.

These are not like buying a 1924 Saint on ebay for market price and adding 50% and dropping it on the BST, which is more similar to what I have seen lately.

I will add that I have not identified the index case, and while I can think of three very similar examples in the last week, the individual who inspired

this thread publicly ripped a dealer's price for a coin yesterday, citing his experience as a collector. I thought THAT was in poor taste. What's good for the goose is good for the gander!

crypto79 · July 21, 2011 2:08AM

I don't think anybody asking(!) any % mark up is in bad taste, dealer or collector. What I deplore is people changing their asking price based off of who is asking esp when they sense weakness.

BigE · July 21, 2011 2:41AM

When someone buys something with the intent of re-selling they are not a collector and are in fact a dealer-so I cant attempt to answer your question RYK

---------------BigE

fiveNdime · July 21, 2011 3:21AM

<< Longacre would be delighted to pay a 163% markup to a dealer, but would be disgusted at paying 163% to a common collector. >>

as a commoner, i'm obviously missing something...

if a dealer or a collector paid $$$$$ for a coin (which should be irrelavent to the resale or qwik flip) why would the same markup paid(same realized sale price) to the collector disgust you?

WestySteve · July 21, 2011 6:12AM

When comparing my want list to some of Heritage's auctions, I can see where somebody could have bought my want list coins, put a hefty markup on them, and they could still sell them to me at my buying price. I'm OK with that! I'd be happy to get the coins at what I think are fair prices.

If any of you have coins you are reluctant to sell on BST at a price BELOW RETAIL because of the stigma of being a flipper, please ignore it and list them. In that scenario, you are passing on part of the savings to the seller, and I, for one, would be a grateful buyer under that scenario. In a nutshell...if I get a good deal and nobody gets hurt, I'm a happy buyer and I'll keep coming back for more.

Steve

Are collector markups higher than dealer markups?

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