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Finding a rare coin after the fact after purchasing a collection. Customer recourse?
halfcentman
Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭
Hypothetical argument, but one that is certainly possible.
While re-examining a collection that you purchased outright from a retail customer which the deal was finalized by them depositing your check, here's the question:
Upon further review of evaluating the collection, you realize that the customer had an 1909-S VDB in the 1909-S hole in an album. It was an honest mistake on your part.
You do the right thing (that may be debatable as well), call back the customer, tell him, and pay him fairly as if you saw the coin while you were evaluating his material in person.
If the customer says "well, since the coin is so valuable, I think that I want to keep it and/or get a few more offers."
As far as I see it, I could have said nothing (and a lot of people wouldn't have as it opens up a can of worms as shown). However, the way I see it is that the customer has zero recourse since the deal was done and he cashed your check. He should be grateful that you were so honest.
What do you think?
While re-examining a collection that you purchased outright from a retail customer which the deal was finalized by them depositing your check, here's the question:
Upon further review of evaluating the collection, you realize that the customer had an 1909-S VDB in the 1909-S hole in an album. It was an honest mistake on your part.
You do the right thing (that may be debatable as well), call back the customer, tell him, and pay him fairly as if you saw the coin while you were evaluating his material in person.
If the customer says "well, since the coin is so valuable, I think that I want to keep it and/or get a few more offers."
As far as I see it, I could have said nothing (and a lot of people wouldn't have as it opens up a can of worms as shown). However, the way I see it is that the customer has zero recourse since the deal was done and he cashed your check. He should be grateful that you were so honest.
What do you think?
0
Comments
1. He can have the extra money
2. He can have the whole collection back, less an appraisal fee.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
But the odd part of the law is if I knew about the hidden painting, but you didn't, then the sale should stand.
In your case, if he took you to court, you'd lose. Yeah, he'll likely never find out, but since your conscience and the law match, the best thing to do, IMHO, is to be honest. Besides...hell is hot.
But if you priced it as the entire collection and agreed upon a price, then the retail customer should not have any recourse.
If I were the retail customer, I would appreciate your honesty and welcome the additional funds. But as you stated, you might be asking for trouble by bringing it up.
I would do whatever you feel is right (even if it costs you some money) because it sounds like this is bothering you!
Edited for spelling error.
Several years ago we had an instance of somebody bringing in a Fugio cent that was slabbed by PCGS. Guy said he wanted X we offered Y, we met somewhere in the middle and we bought it. Tom (CaptHenway) spent several hours researching the coin before we found it to be some rare die marriage R7 or something. It ended up being published in coin world and the person saw it. They demanded compensation because we "knowingly ripped him off". We ended up settling as he was threatening PNG arbitration and the settlement was low enough to not waste our time with.
Of course if the person selling it behaved like a complete jerk during the process, I would think twice even giving them another cent.
It looks like a case of seller beware to me. He should know what he is selling. He put a key coin in the wrong hole.
If it were turned around and the 09-S was in the 09-S VDB hole...it would be buyer beware. You should make sure as a buyer that coins are in the right hole...especially the keys.
I see no need for anything. He offered coins to you and you made an offer and he accepted it. Done deal.
JMHO
<< <i>Similar situation has happened to me twice before and in both cases I called the sellers and offered to send extra funds and in both cases the sellers have referred a bunch of business my way.....both sellers and buyers....honesty is the best policy IMHO >>
Calling him and offering more money would be admirable. Not required though and it would not be dishonest not to.
<< <i>Hypothetical argument, but one that is certainly possible.
While re-examining a collection that you purchased outright from a retail customer which the deal was finalized by them depositing your check, here's the question:
Upon further review of evaluating the collection, you realize that the customer had an 1909-S VDB in the 1909-S hole in an album. It was an honest mistake on your part.
You do the right thing (that may be debatable as well), call back the customer, tell him, and pay him fairly as if you saw the coin while you were evaluating his material in person.
If the customer says "well, since the coin is so valuable, I think that I want to keep it and/or get a few more offers."
As far as I see it, I could have said nothing (and a lot of people wouldn't have as it opens up a can of worms as shown). However, the way I see it is that the customer has zero recourse since the deal was done and he cashed your check. He should be grateful that you were so honest.
What do you think? >>
If the check you are referring to as having cashed is the initial check, then WestySteve' comments apply. In theory, you have a mutual mistake as to the nature of the underlying deal and it could be undone. If you sent him a second check for the 09-s vdb and he cashed that, he has no further recourse. I certainly think it would be fair and reasonable to say take the extra money or take the whole deal back.
And I commend you for your honesty.
Tom
<< <i>Similar situation has happened to me twice before and in both cases I called the sellers and offered to send extra funds and in both cases the sellers have referred a bunch of business my way.....both sellers and buyers....honesty is the best policy IMHO >>
Good karma continues on in marvelous ways.
<< <i>Seller should know what he is selling. At the time of sale if seller had known of the difference, he may have opted for the coin then. It's not a rare coin so if it won't make you or break you, I mite give him the coin. >>
I deal with retail customers whose material is not usually their own - it was a father's or uncle's stuff and they are virtually ignorant about the material they have.
<< <i>It truly depends. If it was something as simple as having a 3-Leg in the 37-D buffalo position, I would simply contact the person, tell them there was a mistake and cut them a check for the difference. The deal is done and there is no need to open up a can of worms as to the details of the error. All too often in our industry do people have to deal with the concept of "no good deed goes unpunished".
Several years ago we had an instance of somebody bringing in a Fugio cent that was slabbed by PCGS. Guy said he wanted X we offered Y, we met somewhere in the middle and we bought it. Tom (CaptHenway) spent several hours researching the coin before we found it to be some rare die marriage R7 or something. It ended up being published in coin world and the person saw it. They demanded compensation because we "knowingly ripped him off". We ended up settling as he was threatening PNG arbitration and the settlement was low enough to not waste our time with.
Of course if the person selling it behaved like a complete jerk during the process, I would think twice even giving them another cent. >>
To elucidate...the slab had an attribution on it, and the coin was purchased based upon that attribution. I tended to recheck attributions for the sake of accuracy before selling things, and discovered that the attribution was wrong.
Secondly, it's best to be honest and open about the whole situation. I like what Julian said.
<< <i>First question...is the coin legit? I'm not questioning your expertise, but in a hypothetical situation one would conclude that it is more likely that it's fake than that it's real...since the 1909-S VDB is one of the most counterfeited coin out there.
Secondly, it's best to be honest and open about the whole situation. I like what Julian said. >>
It's hypothetical.
<< <i>At that point, Greg, you have to play a little hard ball. Tell him that:
1. He can have the extra money
2. He can have the whole collection back, less an appraisal fee. >>
I'll agree with that part
In short... I'd say : "let your conscience be your guide".
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Occasionally you'll hear about someone buying a painting at a yard sale or thrift store for $20, then discovering that it is worth moon money. Never heard of the seller taking legal action against the buyer, though. Wouldn't this be a similar situation?
"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary."
~ Vince Lombardi
I think that if you offer to pay a fair price for the S-VDB, it's no big deal either way, and you'll almost always get to buy the coin. The situation only gets tricky when you allow yourself a jumbo profit margin because of the circumstances of the deal.
For another example, tell me how a client might respond to this:
"Hi, it's me, the coin guy. I just found three one ounce K-Rands in your grandfather's cigar box accumulation, which I didn't see the first time when we did our deal. How about I pay you 50% of spot for them and send you another check for that amount? After all, you know, I didn't need to call you. But I want to share the windfall with you, because that's what's fair."
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
<< <i>Could you just say you misfigured the deal and you owe him an additional $X, without saying specifically what happened? Then you could avoid the seller wanting to take a specific coin back. >>
Best answer yet.
I am very good of thinking of things that have never happened, because I am not good at thinking on my feet. You guys have helped me a great deal.
After hearing that, some people might assume that the buyer feels guilty about paying so little for the collection, and they might want to take everything back.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
a check, for the appropriate amount, with an explanation that I'd made a mis-
calculation and owed him a bit more.
Never heard a peep and they cashed the check, no problem.
bob
Makes sense. You don't have to worry about the seller asking for his coins back if you've already sold them.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
But the odd part of the law is if I knew about the hidden painting, but you didn't, then the sale should stand."
This statement seems contradictory in itself. The false assumption part concerns the seller trying to deceive the buyer-such as someone trying to sell you a car with no engine from an ad and not telling you that is has no engine. Then you go to pick it up and find there is no engine in it. That is a false assumption. If you buy smoething seen from someone face to face, it is yours, and the prior owner has no recourse.
Smoeone bought a picture frame at a local antique market for $4. When they took it home, they found an original signed copy of the constitution behind the picture smoeone had placed in front of it. The buyer then sold it at auction for over $1,000,000. The original seller did not get anymore money.
"In your case, if he took you to court, you'd lose."
I don't know what state you are in but i totally disagree with this statement.
If you buy a roll of 1909 Indian head cents at an auction for $100 say, and later discovered they were all 1909-S's, you do not owe anyone any extra compensation.
JMO-Bob
<< <i>Let the law be your guide. If both parties do a transaction under a false assumption, the sale can be voided. Lets say that I bought a painting from you for $50. Neither you, nor I, knew there was a valuable painting beneath that painting. Then the seller could get it back in court because it was a mistake.
But the odd part of the law is if I knew about the hidden painting, but you didn't, then the sale should stand.
In your case, if he took you to court, you'd lose. Yeah, he'll likely never find out, but since your conscience and the law match, the best thing to do, IMHO, is to be honest. Besides...hell is hot. >>
I'm not sure that I agree with anything that you have said. Unless the original poster in his hypothetical made an intentional misrepresentation of fact, how could the disgruntled seller have any recourse? There is no fraud, and I see no reason why the contract that existed between the buyer and seller should be void or voidable legally. These principles are fairly consistent across the states. If I am missing something, please fill me in.
<< <i>
<< <i>Similar situation has happened to me twice before and in both cases I called the sellers and offered to send extra funds and in both cases the sellers have referred a bunch of business my way.....both sellers and buyers....honesty is the best policy IMHO >>
Calling him and offering more money would be admirable. Not required though and it would not be dishonest not to. >>
Another example why to question PNG's role in this hobby.