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Update on the Bear Legacy collection 7/15/2011
Bear
Posts: 18,953 ✭✭✭
I cleaned out all coins that did not qualify for CAC. Also many white coins went bye bye.
There are now more nicely toned coins in the collection. The quality has been improved
from even the high state it was previously at. The sale of some coins, as you well know,
will generate funds to fill in the gaps in the collection as to half dollars and some more
gold Liberty Coins. This has been an intersting journey in the creation of a new collection.
Even though I prepared a detailed guide to how it was to be done, It was still very difficult
to retain focus. There was a tendency to slide a bit as to quality and to spread myself too
thin on important parts of the collection. Even advanced collectors, have to stand away and
evaluate what they are doing from time to time.
As painful as it may be, one must correct ones errors and ill advised purchases. I suppose it
is a natural part of collecting, but that knowledge does not make the process any easier. I have to
say that the pruning is now compleated with some 12 coins deleted and all is on track to finish
the job.
My thanks to Roadrunner and Realone for their imput and recommendations for the collection. Of course
my deep appreciation to Stefanie (Coinsarefun) for all of her work transfering pictures, deleting pictures
and whatever magic she had to do in compleating her part of the task.
There are now more nicely toned coins in the collection. The quality has been improved
from even the high state it was previously at. The sale of some coins, as you well know,
will generate funds to fill in the gaps in the collection as to half dollars and some more
gold Liberty Coins. This has been an intersting journey in the creation of a new collection.
Even though I prepared a detailed guide to how it was to be done, It was still very difficult
to retain focus. There was a tendency to slide a bit as to quality and to spread myself too
thin on important parts of the collection. Even advanced collectors, have to stand away and
evaluate what they are doing from time to time.
As painful as it may be, one must correct ones errors and ill advised purchases. I suppose it
is a natural part of collecting, but that knowledge does not make the process any easier. I have to
say that the pruning is now compleated with some 12 coins deleted and all is on track to finish
the job.
My thanks to Roadrunner and Realone for their imput and recommendations for the collection. Of course
my deep appreciation to Stefanie (Coinsarefun) for all of her work transfering pictures, deleting pictures
and whatever magic she had to do in compleating her part of the task.
There once was a place called
Camelot
Camelot
0
Comments
Not really looking for much these days but if I were, it might be a toner.
<< <i>
<< <i>If you do not mind me asking, how long did you hold the ten coins that were "pruned", and what percentage of their original cost was lost in the reshuffling? >>
RYK, I believe those two questions are unnecessary during this process. >>
Actually, Bear has repeatedly made the point that he wants this to be a learning process for the forum community. As such, I think that it is important to less advanced collectors (perhaps like myself) to know what is the cost of short term reversals to someone with even the best resources and dealer relationships.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If you do not mind me asking, how long did you hold the ten coins that were "pruned", and what percentage of their original cost was lost in the reshuffling? >>
RYK, I believe those two questions are unnecessary during this process. >>
Actually, Bear has repeatedly made the point that he wants this to be a learning process for the forum community. As such, I think that it is important to less advanced collectors (perhaps like myself) to know what is the cost of short term reversals to someone with even the best resources and dealer relationships. >>
I'm less advance too as very soon I'll only be in this hobby for 36 years...
So I'd also like to know if just a bandaid or transfusion was needed after quickly reselling a dozen coins back to dealers
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If you do not mind me asking, how long did you hold the ten coins that were "pruned", and what percentage of their original cost was lost in the reshuffling? >>
RYK, I believe those two questions are unnecessary during this process. >>
Actually, Bear has repeatedly made the point that he wants this to be a learning process for the forum community. As such, I think that it is important to less advanced collectors (perhaps like myself) to know what is the cost of short term reversals to someone with even the best resources and dealer relationships. >>
How about this for educational, you can easily assume it is a very short time frame and typically very expensive given such an equally short time frame. The good thing is the dealers that he deals with stand behind their coins and he did it rather quickly and the dealers want to keep his business. But for the typical collector it could cause some pain, although with quailty coins the pain can be typically reduced. >>
So what does that mean in the real world for me. If I buy a $5000 coin from dealer XYZ and decide one month later that I no longer want it, how much is it going to cost me? And would it be different if it is dealer ABC? What if I am trading it in on new inventory (or old inventory)? Less advanced collections would probably like to learn the real world implications of the short holding period for trading expensive coins.
<< <i>How about this for educational, you can easily assume it is a very short time frame and typically very expensive given such an equally short time frame. The good thing is the dealers that he deals with stand behind their coins and he did it rather quickly and the dealers want to keep his business. But for the typical collector it could cause some pain, although with quailty coins the pain can be typically reduced. >>
So what does that mean in the real world for me. If I buy a $5000 coin from dealer XYZ and decide one month later that I no longer want it, how much is it going to cost me? And would it be different if it is dealer ABC? What if I am trading it in on new inventory (or old inventory)? Less advanced collections would probably like to learn the real world implications of the short holding period for trading expensive coins. >>
It would be most excellent if bear would divulge all info on the rapid resell as he did on the purchase price.
Since the Bear Legacy collection is a 10-20 year investment knowing the losses needed to re-coupe does play into it's strategy.
Every coin is different, and every dealer is different.
FWIW, I usually buy coins back for roughly 10-12% less than I've sold them for, assuming an unchanged market. I also usually offer a bit more if it's in trade for something else. Of course there are exceptions to the rule. For example, I may not be as generous in repurchasing something that I brokered, as I probably didn't believe in the coin enough to stock it in the first place. I'm also likely to pay less for the coin if I feel that it has been shopped around while out of my hands.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I think RYK asks a very good question, and I am also interested in the answer (to the extent Bear is willing to share). >>
It would be nice to get past the gossipy news of this collection and explore the hard facts of buying expensive retail coins and "pruning" them within a few weeks.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I purchased the coin from one of the specialist dealers in the series for $850 four years ago. I sold the coin after offering it to the three specialists in the series for $500 early this year. The coin had, in between transactions, been submitted to and approved by CAC. The prices of the series/issue in the time between was relatively flat to slightly upward. Net-net is I took a $350 bath on the coin, and should have likely sold it directly to another collector if my goal was to maximize sales price.
I will not share the coin or the dealers in question, as it would surely be a firestorm and that is not my intent, but I did want to share this anecdote with some facts on the prices I saw when buying and selling.
And to share my perspective on Tom's question:
The data above was from my first CAC submission in early 2009....Mike
I see the " 1868 Liberty Seated Dollar.......PCGS PR-65+ ............................Pinnacle Rarities (GCD) $18,500............ (1/4 $20,000 ) "
must not have made the CAC cut .......;
So , how lucky we are that Bear has shared this whole adventure , so we all can learn !
Tell you what I learned for sure :
If I do such a thing as he , I would buy CAC coins from the get go
...........then I wouldn't have to cull out any coins for that reason and dare say I would save myself many of thousands of dollars lost
in my attempts to re-sell the coins I had just bought .
It does indeed. However, in fairness, he thought the coins were the "right" coins the first time.
Furthermore, it is very pertinent to other collectors (apparently not named Realone
If our goal is truly education, why hide the details?
Respectfully...Mike
<< <i>I am not grading RYK's questions.
I am wondering about how we all already not capable of figuring out the answers.
If you buy a coin and then decide after a short amount of time that you don't want it and want to return it to the dealer that you bought it from, you might have to take a hit if the dealer doesn't stnd fully behind that coin. What is the difference if we find out the consequence since every dealer is different and every situation and buyer is different. I would think it is common sense that if you change your mind be prepared to take a hit. I don't need to hear the details, but i know it take a big man to revisit purchases that for him may have been made in error and take the hits and replace them with the right coin(s).
I don't view this part of the process, the details of one's personal outlays as educational. I look at the entire process from the start to finsih as educational; the transformation is what I look at and admire. We all make mistakes, i have pruned my collection, in this case the pruning is that much faster but it is the same. Sometimes we listen to our own eyes and sometimes we listen to other's eyes but in the end you have to be satisfied with the results. Bear has had the bearballs to self correct in a short amount of time and take the consequences what ever they be, I don''t need to hear the consequences to better myself or to become more educated. I do learn from what I am seeing develope. S if Bear didn't admit he made errorsa and held the coins for a longer amount of time and then switched out of them would it be better. I for ine am glad he didn't it rather immediately whether there were consequences to pay or not depending on his relation ship with the dealer(s). >>
Here's the point, RO. I know and you know that Bear likely took a haircut in the 10% range maneuvering out of these coins--perhaps more, perhaps less. We also know, based on the posts here that he likely held them for less than two months. There are a few lessons for the newbie illustrated in all of this:
1. Unless you are extremely lucky or have selling access to "the greater fool", you will not be able to seamlessly move in and out of coins purchased by retail dealers at retailish prices without losing some cash selling out. Rare coins do not have the liquidity of stocks, bonds, or mutual funds.
2. Make good purchases in the first place. I have no problem paying up for an excellent coin that makes me happy, gives me pride in ownership, complements my collection, etc. However, do not expect to change your mind and in a few weeks be able to get all of your money back.
3. When you buy a coin, show it off to fellow collectors and friends, especially on internet forums, and then offer them back to even the best and most honorable dealers, there is a good chance that they will be less enthusiastic about buying them back. Why? Because now, everyone in the numismatic world knows about the coin, it has been overexposed, and even the lovely 1868 proof dollar carries the stigma of not stickering (if Groiny's detective work is accurate).
4. Patience is the collector's friend. Impulsiveness is the collector's enemy.
I am learning ;
for 1 thing - because of what the above and others have said- i am holding my tongue -
and i'm not going to put in print what is causing steam to come out my ears
If the goal is to build a collection specifically with the intent of investment, on the other hand, then obviously the cost of the coins - and of changing out the coins - should matter.
In this case, I am wondering if the people advising Bear to sell some coins and replace others were doing so under the "maximize your happiness approach", while I thought Bear himself was building the collection primarily for investment.
I could be wrong, but thought it was something to consider.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I am not grading RYK's questions.
I am wondering about how we all already not capable of figuring out the answers.
If you buy a coin and then decide after a short amount of time that you don't want it and want to return it to the dealer that you bought it from, you might have to take a hit if the dealer doesn't stnd fully behind that coin. What is the difference if we find out the consequence since every dealer is different and every situation and buyer is different. I would think it is common sense that if you change your mind be prepared to take a hit. I don't need to hear the details, but i know it take a big man to revisit purchases that for him may have been made in error and take the hits and replace them with the right coin(s).
I don't view this part of the process, the details of one's personal outlays as educational. I look at the entire process from the start to finsih as educational; the transformation is what I look at and admire. We all make mistakes, i have pruned my collection, in this case the pruning is that much faster but it is the same. Sometimes we listen to our own eyes and sometimes we listen to other's eyes but in the end you have to be satisfied with the results. Bear has had the bearballs to self correct in a short amount of time and take the consequences what ever they be, I don''t need to hear the consequences to better myself or to become more educated. I do learn from what I am seeing develope. S if Bear didn't admit he made errorsa and held the coins for a longer amount of time and then switched out of them would it be better. I for ine am glad he didn't it rather immediately whether there were consequences to pay or not depending on his relation ship with the dealer(s). >>
Here's the point, RO. I know and you know that Bear likely took a haircut in the 10% range maneuvering out of these coins--perhaps more, perhaps less. We also know, based on the posts here that he likely held them for less than two months. There are a few lessons for the newbie illustrated in all of this:
1. Unless you are extremely lucky or have selling access to "the greater fool", you will not be able to seamlessly move in and out of coins purchased by retail dealers at retailish prices without losing some cash selling out. Rare coins do not have the liquidity of stocks, bonds, or mutual funds.
2. Make good purchases in the first place. I have no problem paying up for an excellent coin that makes me happy, gives me pride in ownership, complements my collection, etc. However, do not expect to change your mind and in a few weeks be able to get all of your money back.
3. When you buy a coin, show it off to fellow collectors and friends, especially on internet forums, and then offer them back to even the best and most honorable dealers, there is a good chance that they will be less enthusiastic about buying them back. Why? Because now, everyone in the numismatic world knows about the coin, it has been overexposed, and even the lovely 1868 proof dollar carries the stigma of not stickering (if Groiny's detective work is accurate).
4. Patience is the collector's friend. Impulsiveness is the collector's enemy. >>
With all due respect to you and RYK (two collectors I have a great deal of respect for), I knew this already and it is hardly earth shattering to anyone playing the coin game for any significant period of time.
What was earth-shattering, at least to me, was just how large the spread was. I was, frankly, shocked at its size and it has caused me to re-evaluate how I buy and sell coins.
It's one thing to say "you're going to lose money when you sell coins in a short period" and quite another to say "I lost more than 40% on a transaction among specialist dealers spanning four years" or "I lost 20% in a month".
Bear, to his credit, has been very transparent in his recent collecting travels, and I hope he continues this transparency as I believe it has even more lessons for many of us to learn. However, without specifics the lesson is far less poignant -- at least in this collector's eyes.
Respectfully...Mike
I have also likely lost 40% on coins that I have held for years.
1. You can lose money on any coin for any time period that the coin is held.
2. I have always liked the Sunnywood approach where he professed to immediately mentally write down the value of his new coin purchase by 30%. Doing so goes a long way in protecting you from being disappointed when you sell your coin and helps keep you from overestimating the value of your collection. Over the years, I have heard many, many folks here state that they are collecting for their retirement, their children's college expense, to leave an inheritance, etc., and I believe that many overestimate the value of their collections.
<< <i>2. I have always liked the Sunnywood approach where he professed to immediately mentally write down the value of his new coin purchase by 30%. Doing so goes a long way in protecting you from being disappointed when you sell your coin and helps keep you from overestimating the value of your collection. Over the years, I have heard many, many folks here state that they are collecting for their retirement, their children's college expense, to leave an inheritance, etc., and I believe that many overestimate the value of their collections. >>
I had not heard of that one. After my recent experiences, I think it makes a lot of sense. Thanks for passing it along.
Like you, I believe many collectors overestimate the value of their collections, but until recently I had a great deal of trouble quantifying the overestimation -- thus my line of questioning in this thread...Mike
Isn't this now already the second time that a group of coins was pruned... A group of WLH as I recall
For some reason, it is easier for me to stomach buying a coin, keeping it in my collection for four years, perhaps having it fill a hole or niche, selling it, and losing 10% better than I can stomach buying a coin, keeping it in my collection for four weeks, realizing that it does not fill a hole or have a niche, and selling it for a 10% loss. One reason is that I have presumably had some enjoyment for four years in the first scenario, and all I have is the bitter taste of regret in the second case. Additionally, if I do the latter repeatedly every four weeks, in four years, my initial $10,000 outlay will be done to near zero.
The point I suppose I'm trying to make is many/most think we are St. Guru (and expect the same results), when in fact we are RYK/Bear/Mike/Alan -- and it is a very rude awakening upon making this realization.
I know it was for me, and I suspect I am not alone in this.
Otherwise, one takes the hit of buying at retail twice, whether or not the coin is 'right.'
<< <i>I cleaned out all coins that did not qualify for CAC. >>
Sadly I'm still having issues with the first sentence, as is this the new direction of our hobby
You package up coins for mailing you purchased cause you liked them and then dump them as a 4th party doesn't.
Can we get back to just drinking kool-aid and quit the strawberry meth before it becomes an epidemic
In short, no. Consider slabs a gateway drug. Where it leads is anybody's guess. (My guess involves all the coins in a large warehouse and all of our computers loaded with images and digital certificates of ownership. Fortunately, it's only a guess.)
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Nonetheless, the dealers from whom Bear bought these coins represented them as being very nice examples for their grades.
The lesson here is learn to grade (as objectively as possible) what you are interested in purchasing. Retail dealers who (perhaps mistakenly)
buy B or C coins will still talk them up and sell these 'mistakes' to collectors.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Over the years, I've jumped in an out of collecting coins...sometimes selling my coins to buy other types of collectibles.
After getting hammered a few times, I learned the following:
1. Buy stuff that is liquid. Coins that are hard to buy are easy to sell. Also, liquidity is the harbinger for higher prices. If everyone wants it, it will go up in price.
2. Just like in real estate and car collecting...take your profit when you buy the coin. If you can't get it for a discount then don't buy it. You could argue that this directly conflicts with rule #1, but not always. Sometimes a small-time dealer or collector will stumble on a great coin and they want their money out of it quick. They bought it cheap, so they'll sell it cheap. While you're twiddling your thumbs between these types of acquisitions, be saving your money. I have a friend here in town who is a dealer. He is mostly just a gold and silver buying station, but occasionally he's offered nice coins. His business model is to buy stuff and immediately turn it over. So he calls me, and I come down, checkbook in hand, to buy his stuff. Build a relationship with some dealers that get nice stuff that isn't right for their clientelle. Like what does the Early copper specialist dealer do when he gets nice seated halves? Probably wholesales them/trades them to other dealers.
3. An informed purchase at an auction can be a good safe way to buy any collectible. If I win a hotly contested e-bay auction with spirited bidding, I know that the second place guy was within $1 or so from my winning bid. So ideally, I should be able to sell it to someone like him for a buck less than I bought it. Other factors like how well the auction is documented and when the auction closes can work in your favor so that...theoretically...you could even immediately resell the coin and come out even even after flea-bay's ridiculous fees. Think about it...the educated Van Gogh collector with money to burn buys his stuff at auction...not in a shop. The difference between the price he pays and the secondplace guy is small (plus the auction fees). Note that this goes with rule #1. Wanna find good potential investor grade seated liberty halfs? Scroll through the auctions looking for expensive auctions with 5 or 6 bidders. Then don't be stupid enough to put in a "nuclear bid", lest you bid against someone equally as stupid.
4. Green beans...gold beans. Not everyone is convinced that chasing beans is important. If its important to you, buy the coin with the bean already on it but realize you might be overpaying. The fact is that the population of coins with beans on them is so low relative to the number of coins out there, that there may be far more people chasing them than they are worth. I'm rambling...but I"m saying this: Only buy coins without green beans, and then only pay what a coin without a green bean is worth. Then if you submit it and it comes back with a green bean, you have won something....but only in the short term. In the long run, the sticker won't matter....only the quality of the coin that is there, bean or not.
In summary...wait for a really good deal and buy quality. Find ways to fish for good deals. Don't buy a coin that you can't resell for close to what you paid for it...there are plenty of coins out there that qualify for this criteria.
Steve
maybe some know it more then others ; but we all could be reminded of those very pertinent points least we forget
I think instead of everyone jumping on the bears paws- why not wait for him to respond if he would like to.
Perhaps he will to a given user in a pm.
Like this:
"wait for a really good deal and buy quality"
If you need a 61-D $5 or a 55-O $20 for your set, "a really good deal" and "buy quality" are mutually exclusive.
If you are collecting Morgans by date and need a 78-CC for your set, you can wait for your pitch.
As for auctions providing a measure of safety, often the underbidder is not there the next time the coin goes off.
As for the CAC, it has only been around for a few years, so we do not know the long term impact of it on the market. If I am selling a coin today, I would rather have the bean on it than not have it.
"Only buy coins without green beans, and then only pay what a coin without a green bean is worth. "
I only have purchased one gold stickered coin and sold it a few months later for a 30% profit.
You are making a lot of generalizations, some of which are helpful and some are misleading. Many work for some areas of the coin market and not for others. The best advice I can give any collector is get to know your area of interest as well as you can: the coins, the prices, the dealers, the other collectors, the related auctions (recent and past), the literature, etc. If you do, you will be best prepared to buy the right coins at the right price at the right time.
<< <i>_ _ _ is having a second set of expert eyes review a coin. Pcgs can grade a coin as a pr65 but there are always nice 65's and not as nice 65's
I think instead of everyone jumping on the bears paws- why not wait for him to respond if he would like to.
Perhaps he will to a given user in a pm. >>
I think that we have moved way beyond Bear's specific circumstances on this thread, and there is interesting discussion and opinions being bantered about. Why limit it?
seemed to convince him that CAC was the only way to go .
He had stated that he was banking on his decades of experience and the fact he was buying from some of the biggest and most respected dealers in the country ;
now ........., seems that was all chucked simply because CAC did not agree with his experience and/or the eyes and skills of said dealers on a dozen of his coins .........
While I'll be the first to admit I can be very direct and rather gruff too, jumping on Bear was certainly not my intent.
indeed . , and I got a feeling Bear is reading all these comments and is trying to figure out how the heck to get out of the large , sticky honey pot he has stumbled in to
<< <i>I personally was following along , thoroughly enjoying Bears adventure ............until , somehow/or/someone
seemed to convince him that CAC was the only way to go .
He had stated that he was banking on his decades of experience and the fact he was buying from some of the biggest and most respected dealers in the country ;
now ........., seems that was all chucked simply because CAC did not agree with his experience and/or the eyes and skills of said dealers on a dozen of his coins ......... >>
This an age-old lesson. If you need your coin to be in a PCGS holder, your best bet is to buy one in the PCGS holder. If you need your coin to have a PhotoSeal or CAC sticker, it's best to buy it that way. Otherwise, all bets are off. There have been times that I myself have been disappointed when I did not get the affirmation I expected from a third or fourth party--sometimes, I have sold the coin--other times, I have kept it. It really depends.
<< <i>I personally was following along , thoroughly enjoying Bears adventure ............until , somehow/or/someone
seemed to convince him that CAC was the only way to go .
He had stated that he was banking on his decades of experience and the fact he was buying from some of the biggest and most respected dealers in the country ;
now ........., seems that was all chucked simply because CAC did not agree with his experience and/or the eyes and skills of said dealers on a dozen of his coins ......... >>
This sums it up perfectly.
Sad actually.
<< <i>
<< <i>I personally was following along , thoroughly enjoying Bears adventure ............until , somehow/or/someone
seemed to convince him that CAC was the only way to go .
He had stated that he was banking on his decades of experience and the fact he was buying from some of the biggest and most respected dealers in the country ;
now ........., seems that was all chucked simply because CAC did not agree with his experience and/or the eyes and skills of said dealers on a dozen of his coins ......... >>
This sums it up perfectly.
Sad actually. >>
CAC does not just disagree and leave it. Call John and ask him why a coin didnt sticker. Im sure he would be glad to explain his opinion. His explanations have opened mine as well as other peoples eyes to things never noticed and what to look out with for in the future.
Yes, he may still be in Hawaii partying with the proceeds from the sale of his coin -----------------------------BigE