<< <i>WestySteve, you make some good points, but they are not applicable to all collectors.
Like this:
"wait for a really good deal and buy quality"
If you need a 61-D $5 or a 55-O $20 for your set, "a really good deal" and "buy quality" are mutually exclusive.
If you are collecting Morgans by date and need a 78-CC for your set, you can wait for your pitch.
As for auctions providing a measure of safety, often the underbidder is not there the next time the coin goes off.
As for the CAC, it has only been around for a few years, so we do not know the long term impact of it on the market. If I am selling a coin today, I would rather have the bean on it than not have it.
"Only buy coins without green beans, and then only pay what a coin without a green bean is worth. "
I only have purchased one gold stickered coin and sold it a few months later for a 30% profit.
You are making a lot of generalizations, some of which are helpful and some are misleading. Many work for some areas of the coin market and not for others. The best advice I can give any collector is get to know your area of interest as well as you can: the coins, the prices, the dealers, the other collectors, the related auctions (recent and past), the literature, etc. If you do, you will be best prepared to buy the right coins at the right price at the right time. >>
Thanks for the response. You make good counterpoints, so let me do the same.
Lets define our terms here. Bear is predominantly buyiing coins as an investment. So am I, because I have three girls to send to college and pay for weddings. The odds in my keeping my coins all through life are slim unless I get hit by a bus. What I'm saying is that we're talking about investing here...not collecting. So I'm being a cold and analytical investor here. If you can't find your '78CC Morgan for a good price, but you can buy a duplicate of another year that you don't need at a super price, then you buy it anyway. Yes, collect what you like...I respect that. But as for me...I do little collecting, and instead try to like what I invest in instead.
Also...if you sold a bought a gold bean coin and sold it for a 30% more you did good. But effectively what you did was bought a coin in MS66 for MS65 money and sold it for fair market...or something similar to that. Or perhaps it was effectively the same as buying an MS65, cracking it out, and getting it into a higher/better slab. Regardless, you bought well and sold well, which is what I'm advocating. Also, I make a distinction between the long run and the short run. In the short run beans are worth a premium, people are so excited about these beans that they are overpaying. Did the guy you sold your gold bean coin to overpay? Or did you buy well? I don't know enough about beans to know whether they are photodocumenting the coins, but if not, there are going to be alot of fake beans pretty soon...and when that happens, they won't be valuable. Regardless, a bean should never be a substitute for making up your own mind about a coin on a sight seen basis. I fear that the beans are a repeat of the phenomenon that happened when slabbed coins first came out. So many people shifted their collecting to only those coins in slabs that it affected prices, and was one of the factors in the crash. I'm not saying we'll have a crash, but we could have a crash in bean-marked coins if people pay too much for them. In the long run, paying extra for a bean might not be a good idea...but buying a nicer coin is always a good idea.
Regarding underbidders...yes...they might not be there. But when buying, the aggressive bidder might not be there either. You have to take your profit when you buy the coin so that you don't get burned when you sell it in the event that the under bidder isn't there. But also, you need to (at least) try to buy coins that are hot enough to draw lots of bidders. A way to do this is to enter a lot of auctions and make informed bids that top out at a great price...maybe you'll get lucky and the overbidder won't show up.
As for "really good deal" and certain quality coins not syncing up...I get that. But consider. I am into astronomy. And I'll get my astronomy magazine and it will tell me about some rare stellar event that is happening this month, so I'll view it with my telescope. Then next month, there will be another rare stellar event. Each individual stellar event is very rare, but there is always one going on somewhere. My point is that even if getting a bargain on one particular coin might be an improbable event, there will always be other improbable sales somewhere to capitalize on. This is why narrowing your focus (too much) to one run of coins can hurt you as an investor...you're only looking at one little section of the whole universe. (Note: I'm not saying specialization isn't good...but keep your eyes out for stuff outside your specialty) Again...we're not talking about collecting...we're talking about investing. You buy whatever is a good deal with good future growth potential, regardless of the series. The good news is that one necessary ingredient of a "good investment" is that the coin has to be pretty nice. So its not like you're buying crappy coins if you're investing...you can enjoy the coins and invest too.
<< <i>_ _ _ is having a second set of expert eyes review a coin. Pcgs can grade a coin as a pr65 but there are always nice 65's and not as nice 65's
I think instead of everyone jumping on the bears paws- why not wait for him to respond if he would like to. Perhaps he will to a given user in a pm. >>
I think that we have moved way beyond Bear's specific circumstances on this thread, and there is interesting discussion and opinions being bantered about. Why limit it? >>
Sorry...much of that is my fault. I think its cool that Bear is being "open book" about his acquisitions, and hopefully he won't mind that this has sparked a free flow of ideas that can help everyone make better choices.
I don't have a doubt in the world that Bear's intentions over the past month or so in posting here were as pure as Ukrainian honey from the white acacia. I almost get the sense though that for most collectors out there detailing every move of building a personal collection would be akin to walking someone through the sausage factory in the 19th century. The end product may be delicious, but, a detail of every step of the jouney ... well, that may be another story. Bear is one of the great collectors of our time as measured by his love and devotion to this great hobby. Although we have not spoken in a couple years, I would be one of the first to donate a coin to a charity Bear might elect to set up for the benefit of young numismatists. His passion has always been to educate beginners to the hobby. What a "natural" he would be to organize such a fund for the benefit of the youth of this hobby. Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
1) great thread 2) Pinnacle does not submit to CAC 3) Returning coins to a dealer after they have been bought, posted, debated and bantered about on these boards is not in the best taste in my opinion. Selling them though auction would be more palatable. Just saying. I'm guessing that is what Bear is doing.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The Sunnywood self imposed 30% rule makes so much sense. It accounts for a 15% buying and selling premium on each transaction. Actually I'm going to use a 40% mental "hit tax" for my collection as I'm not nearly as smart as Doug.....MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
One positive thing to note here: I just reviewed the collection and must say it truly is the creme de la creme. The garden has been tended, at some short term expense, but the net result is true beauty throughout. Well done, Bear!
I just saw that Mr. Bear is online right now so maybe he will enlighten us with his own substantive comments about CAC, coin evaluation, coin liquidation, and the other important discussion and learning topics here.
Is it true (as you posted on Coinsarefun) that somebody from this forum asked you to never, ever again mention your legacy collection here? Why would anybody do such a thing?
<< <i>I just saw that Mr. Bear is online right now so maybe he will enlighten us with his own substantive comments about CAC, coin evaluation, coin liquidation, and the other important discussion and learning topics here. >>
This should be at Bears leisure if he chooses to do so -excuse me for saying so and no offense intended--------------BigE
<< <i>For those who may be interested, updates will now be found on the COINSAREFUN FORUM.
They will no longer be available on this Forum, to avoid antagonizing any member. Be Well. >>
I am disppointed to learn that. I am not sure that anyone was antagonized in any way. There were some possibly controversial moves made, questions asked, and subsequent excellent discussion between forum members.
I am sorry if anything I said may have offended you. I was under the impression that your collection was being formed with unusual transparency with the intent of educating fellow forum members. If I spoke out of line, I apologize.
<< <i>Is it true (as you posted on Coinsarefun) that somebody from this forum asked you to never, ever again mention your legacy collection here? Why would anybody do such a thing? >>
That's a shame, I guess this is the forum of Coinsaren'tfun (butreallycoldmetalinvestment)
Whomever said that, you really shouldn't pick on the bear. Remember if the bear gets mad we'll all have to run, and we won't have to outrun the bear, we will just have to outrun you.
Bear, I've found your collection discussion interesting, and I think everyone could learn something from the process of putting together a quality collection of relatively expensive coins in a short time during a strong market, something most of us can not say we've done.
I too am disappointed to learn of this development, and what caused Bear to cease his posts regarding his Legacy Collection. I did not agree with a number of his choices, but I admittedly am biased towards older coinage. His posts stimulated comments concerning a variety of issues that many novice collectors should be cognizant of. Looking at the images of selected coins, PCGS grades, CAC bean/no bean, dealer opinions regarding 'investment-grade' coins, etc., is an interesting exercise. This is unfortunate.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
<< <i>...I have received a number of PMs that have asked me to desist
in my updates and mention of my collection. >>
I can't even fathom where/why someone would be motivated to send you those PMs! Am I missing something here??? Couldn't those offended people just not read the thread?
Kind of makes me want to post a blow-by-blow of my own (admittedly pathetic low-budget) acquisitions for no other reason than to tick those people off.
I seriously don't get it! Can't they just put you on ignore or something?
Sorry others have "dipped your forum" (i.e., removed its luster). I really like your posts.
When I start something , even though the going might get tuff , and might not get the approval of all involved -
I'll be damned if I'm going to change course and jump ship 3/4's of the way to my intended destination .
You chose to be magnificently open and transparent , and are giving in now to external pressures that don't seem to be comfortable with the heat in the kitchen :
......... you do yourself and us , your admiring and loyal cubs , a grave injustice .
This is entirely speculation on my part and it might even be considered reckless speculation by some, but I can imagine a small core of folks who hold more sway with PCGS who might not like the direction that the collection building process has taken. To a certain extent I could also understand their thinking. It may be that one or more parties who sell a coin or coins into the collection and subsequently have the coin or coins "tagged" as associated with the collection by the publication of the images here on the boards might not be completely happy. The free publicity is great initially, but then the price paid is publicized, too, and this price paid might be radically different than the price the coin was listed for on the dealer's website and might reflect a hefty discount because of past dealings with the buyer. If an inordinantly large discount was received by the buyer then other folks might be misled into thinking that the profit margin for this dealer is actually larger on a routine basis than might otherwise be true. Additionally, the coins were then sent for regrade and none upgraded. Again, dealers who make these sales might not be happy, but if you write up a coin as a possible upgrade candidate then you should be willing to take any associated criticism if the coin does not upgrade. Lastly, rejection by CAC can infer that the coin is either overgraded, has a problem or is low end for the grade. These coins disappear from the list in the collection, but thousands of us have already read about these coins, seen their images, know the source and have the price. This not only can make a dealer look bad, which anyone can argue might or might not have some merit for not releasing the information. However, the coins have now been heavily publicized in a very serious forum with thousands of views as being rejects. If the coin goes back to that dealer then that dealer has material that is at least in the short run possibly more difficult to move and might possibly need to be discounted because of the publicized price and status as a reject. This discount off of the publicized price might constitute a double whammy if the coin was sold into the collection at a highly reduced rate to begin with because of a past relationship. One might have no sympathy for those dealers, but this process can definitely hurt the bottom line of a business.
Another point to make is that this collection was formed almost entirely from PCGS graded coins and touted as such. It has now taken on the strategy of being formed by PCGS graded coins that have passed CAC standards, which is an entirely different animal and one that PCGS cannot be thrilled to see being discussed on their site. Any behind the scenes complaining by dealers might have been ignored, but this newest wrinkle could make PCGS pull the threads.
<< <i>find me and my continuing efforts to enlighten even at my own expense by mentioning my own errors >>
Old Wise One, I am unable to cast the first stone for I too have made many errors. Like many posters I have trumpeted my victories, but shied from the boobs. My hat is off reguardless of where you chose to continue your "experiment".
<< <i>When I start something , even though the going might get tuff , and might not get the approval of all involved -
I'll be damned if I'm going to change course and jump ship 3/4's of the way to my intended destination .
You chose to be magnificently open and transparent , and are giving in now to external pressures that don't seem to be comfortable with the heat in the kitchen :
......... you do yourself and us , your admiring and loyal cubs , a grave injustice . >>
I think you are laying it on a bit too thick.
I agree with TomB's points, but they may or may not have anything to do with the threads having been pulled.
Bear, Perhaps if you kept your comments/updates in one thread, those dissonant voices might acquiesce, and those interested in your collection and lessons learned might still stay informed without having to go to another forum. Just an idea...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
That scowling green monster face and the dirty gold man are in their own way as wise as that old Bear ................
I believe I shall apologize , as I have laid it on extra thick .
I fall prey to judging others , and that character defect is inappropriate and unfair .
Can't help but associate Bear with Winnie the Pooh ............ Tom B being Rabbit , maybe RYK as Piglet and myself an Eeyore ; ...........you reading this can be Tigger
I'm genuinely curious how his Legacy Collection will fare financially in the coming years. Bear/Abe paid strong money for some nice coins, and the holding period will be long. In other words, he followed conventional wisdom. The eventual liquidation of the collection will demonstrate just how wise conventional wisdom happens to be.
I wish his family well and hope they will give us a heads up when the collection goes to auction someday.
Comments
<< <i>WestySteve, you make some good points, but they are not applicable to all collectors.
Like this:
"wait for a really good deal and buy quality"
If you need a 61-D $5 or a 55-O $20 for your set, "a really good deal" and "buy quality" are mutually exclusive.
If you are collecting Morgans by date and need a 78-CC for your set, you can wait for your pitch.
As for auctions providing a measure of safety, often the underbidder is not there the next time the coin goes off.
As for the CAC, it has only been around for a few years, so we do not know the long term impact of it on the market. If I am selling a coin today, I would rather have the bean on it than not have it.
"Only buy coins without green beans, and then only pay what a coin without a green bean is worth. "
I only have purchased one gold stickered coin and sold it a few months later for a 30% profit.
You are making a lot of generalizations, some of which are helpful and some are misleading. Many work for some areas of the coin market and not for others. The best advice I can give any collector is get to know your area of interest as well as you can: the coins, the prices, the dealers, the other collectors, the related auctions (recent and past), the literature, etc. If you do, you will be best prepared to buy the right coins at the right price at the right time. >>
Thanks for the response. You make good counterpoints, so let me do the same.
Lets define our terms here. Bear is predominantly buyiing coins as an investment. So am I, because I have three girls to send to college and pay for weddings. The odds in my keeping my coins all through life are slim unless I get hit by a bus.
Also...if you sold a bought a gold bean coin and sold it for a 30% more you did good. But effectively what you did was bought a coin in MS66 for MS65 money and sold it for fair market...or something similar to that. Or perhaps it was effectively the same as buying an MS65, cracking it out, and getting it into a higher/better slab. Regardless, you bought well and sold well, which is what I'm advocating. Also, I make a distinction between the long run and the short run. In the short run beans are worth a premium, people are so excited about these beans that they are overpaying. Did the guy you sold your gold bean coin to overpay? Or did you buy well? I don't know enough about beans to know whether they are photodocumenting the coins, but if not, there are going to be alot of fake beans pretty soon...and when that happens, they won't be valuable. Regardless, a bean should never be a substitute for making up your own mind about a coin on a sight seen basis. I fear that the beans are a repeat of the phenomenon that happened when slabbed coins first came out. So many people shifted their collecting to only those coins in slabs that it affected prices, and was one of the factors in the crash. I'm not saying we'll have a crash, but we could have a crash in bean-marked coins if people pay too much for them. In the long run, paying extra for a bean might not be a good idea...but buying a nicer coin is always a good idea.
Regarding underbidders...yes...they might not be there. But when buying, the aggressive bidder might not be there either. You have to take your profit when you buy the coin so that you don't get burned when you sell it in the event that the under bidder isn't there. But also, you need to (at least) try to buy coins that are hot enough to draw lots of bidders. A way to do this is to enter a lot of auctions and make informed bids that top out at a great price...maybe you'll get lucky and the overbidder won't show up.
As for "really good deal" and certain quality coins not syncing up...I get that. But consider. I am into astronomy. And I'll get my astronomy magazine and it will tell me about some rare stellar event that is happening this month, so I'll view it with my telescope. Then next month, there will be another rare stellar event. Each individual stellar event is very rare, but there is always one going on somewhere. My point is that even if getting a bargain on one particular coin might be an improbable event, there will always be other improbable sales somewhere to capitalize on. This is why narrowing your focus (too much) to one run of coins can hurt you as an investor...you're only looking at one little section of the whole universe. (Note: I'm not saying specialization isn't good...but keep your eyes out for stuff outside your specialty) Again...we're not talking about collecting...we're talking about investing. You buy whatever is a good deal with good future growth potential, regardless of the series. The good news is that one necessary ingredient of a "good investment" is that the coin has to be pretty nice. So its not like you're buying crappy coins if you're investing...you can enjoy the coins and invest too.
Steve
<< <i>
<< <i>_ _ _ is having a second set of expert eyes review a coin. Pcgs can grade a coin as a pr65 but there are always nice 65's and not as nice 65's
I think instead of everyone jumping on the bears paws- why not wait for him to respond if he would like to.
Perhaps he will to a given user in a pm. >>
I think that we have moved way beyond Bear's specific circumstances on this thread, and there is interesting discussion and opinions being bantered about. Why limit it? >>
Sorry...much of that is my fault. I think its cool that Bear is being "open book" about his acquisitions, and hopefully he won't mind that this has sparked a free flow of ideas that can help everyone make better choices.
Wondercoin
<< <i><<<<<As for auctions providing a measure of safety, often the underbidder is not there the next time the coin goes off.>>>>
Yes, he may still be in Hawaii partying with the proceeds from the sale of his coin -----------------------------BigE
BIG E ! you got skills man
that ironic comment is funny as hell - and I hardly ever laugh
2) Pinnacle does not submit to CAC
3) Returning coins to a dealer after they have been bought, posted, debated and bantered about on these boards is not in the best taste in my opinion. Selling them though auction would be more palatable. Just saying. I'm guessing that is what Bear is doing.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
is the creme de la creme. The garden has been tended, at some short term expense,
but the net result is true beauty throughout. Well done, Bear!
If I could be any animal , I would be a Bear
<< <i>yes indeedy !
If I could be any animal , I would be a Bear
Id be a bird
They will no longer be available on this Forum, to avoid antagonizing any member. Be Well.
Camelot
reading my thoughts and opinions on coin collecting know where to find them.
Camelot
<< <i>I just saw that Mr. Bear is online right now so maybe he will enlighten us with his own substantive comments about CAC, coin evaluation, coin liquidation, and the other important discussion and learning topics here. >>
This should be at Bears leisure if he chooses to do so -excuse me for saying so and no offense intended--------------BigE
<< <i>For those who may be interested, updates will now be found on the COINSAREFUN FORUM.
They will no longer be available on this Forum, to avoid antagonizing any member. Be Well. >>
Unbelievable. I loved your updates...I don't get it. Honestly, I don't know how to get to the coinsarefun forum...is that a website?
<< <i>For those who may be interested, updates will now be found on the COINSAREFUN FORUM.
They will no longer be available on this Forum, to avoid antagonizing any member. Be Well. >>
I am disppointed to learn that. I am not sure that anyone was antagonized in any way. There were some possibly controversial moves made, questions asked, and subsequent excellent discussion between forum members.
I am sorry if anything I said may have offended you. I was under the impression that your collection was being formed with unusual transparency with the intent of educating fellow forum members. If I spoke out of line, I apologize.
<< <i>Is it true (as you posted on Coinsarefun) that somebody from this forum asked you to never, ever again mention your legacy collection here? Why would anybody do such a thing? >>
That's a shame, I guess this is the forum of Coinsaren'tfun (butreallycoldmetalinvestment)
Whomever said that, you really shouldn't pick on the bear. Remember if the bear gets mad we'll all have to run, and we won't have to outrun the bear, we will just have to outrun you.
Bear, I've found your collection discussion interesting, and I think everyone could learn something from the process of putting together a quality collection of relatively expensive coins in a short time during a strong market, something most of us can not say we've done.
as a learning tool. It is just that I have received a number of PMs that have asked me to desist
in my updates and mention of my collection. While the number of folks commenting favorably is in
the clear majority, it has never been my intention to cause any unhappiness on the Forum and so
I have agreed to the requests to discontinue my efforts at tutorials. You know, or will find out, how
to find me and my continuing efforts to enlighten even at my own expense by mentioning my own errors.
I will continue to post here but only in reply to a thread. Any PMs that are polite or pleasant requests,
will always be answered and I will be delighted to do so.
I will keep the collection picture thread updated as well as the coin data thread for anyone who may wish
to make use of them for informational purposes.
Camelot
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>...I have received a number of PMs that have asked me to desist
in my updates and mention of my collection. >>
I can't even fathom where/why someone would be motivated to send you those PMs! Am I missing something here??? Couldn't those offended people just not read the thread?
Kind of makes me want to post a blow-by-blow of my own (admittedly pathetic low-budget) acquisitions for no other reason than to tick those people off.
I seriously don't get it! Can't they just put you on ignore or something?
Sorry others have "dipped your forum" (i.e., removed its luster). I really like your posts.
Steve
I'll be damned if I'm going to change course and jump ship 3/4's of the way to my intended destination .
You chose to be magnificently open and transparent , and are giving in now to external pressures that don't seem to be comfortable with the heat in the kitchen :
......... you do yourself and us , your admiring and loyal cubs , a grave injustice .
Another point to make is that this collection was formed almost entirely from PCGS graded coins and touted as such. It has now taken on the strategy of being formed by PCGS graded coins that have passed CAC standards, which is an entirely different animal and one that PCGS cannot be thrilled to see being discussed on their site. Any behind the scenes complaining by dealers might have been ignored, but this newest wrinkle could make PCGS pull the threads.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>find me and my continuing efforts to enlighten even at my own expense by mentioning my own errors >>
Old Wise One, I am unable to cast the first stone for I too have made many errors. Like many posters I have trumpeted my victories, but shied from the boobs. My hat is off reguardless of where you chose to continue your "experiment".
<< <i>When I start something , even though the going might get tuff , and might not get the approval of all involved -
I'll be damned if I'm going to change course and jump ship 3/4's of the way to my intended destination .
You chose to be magnificently open and transparent , and are giving in now to external pressures that don't seem to be comfortable with the heat in the kitchen :
......... you do yourself and us , your admiring and loyal cubs , a grave injustice . >>
I think you are laying it on a bit too thick.
I agree with TomB's points, but they may or may not have anything to do with the threads having been pulled.
dissonant PMs. Do not read more in to things then actually exists. Some folks just do not like to
read about certain things. It irritates them even though they know that they do not have to
read certain threads. This is life, no more, no less and we just move with the flow.
Camelot
While I will remain on this Forum, I shall reserve all tutorials to another location.
This is just the way it has to be. All I wanted to do was give back something to
the hobby. Since that is proving disruptive here, no problem, as I will do it where
it is no longer a problem. Life goes on, non of us needs any more stress in our lives
then we already have. This is a place to spend some quiet and pleasant time and it
must be kept that way as much as is possible.
Camelot
I believe I shall apologize , as I have laid it on extra thick .
I fall prey to judging others , and that character defect is inappropriate and unfair .
Can't help but associate Bear with Winnie the Pooh ............ Tom B being Rabbit , maybe RYK as Piglet and myself an Eeyore ; ...........you reading this can be Tigger
Brother Abe will be missed.
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
<< <i>TTT
Brother Abe will be missed. >>
Indeed. He injected an aura of Zen-like calm and gentle humor to the Forum.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I wish his family well and hope they will give us a heads up when the collection goes to auction someday.