Phoney Lincoln Cent makes it....

drwstr123 · July 7, 2011 12:57AM

...to the secondary market.
Bought on the Bay from a US seller.
The first thing noticed is the date.
Overall mushy strike and striated shiny edge.
Weight is 2.7g.
No gripe with the seller, I doubt he knew. Positive FB left.
I wanted an example for reference. PCGS 1917 on the right.

19Lyds · July 7, 2011 1:06AM

Is this supposed to be a DDO?

Coins911 · July 7, 2011 1:07AM

Am I missing something why would someone counterfit a 1917 cent?

drwstr123 · July 7, 2011 1:08AM

<< Am I missing something why would someone counterfit a 1917 cent? >>

Kinda the reason for the post...

Jobessi · July 7, 2011 1:14AM

There's no chance it could be an error cent?

FredWeinberg · July 7, 2011 1:21AM

I'd say it's a counterfeit from the scans.

It's not an error; the mushy strike,
and uneven date scream NG.

And although it's difficult to make a
determination of the edge from just
a scan, the edge of the coin doesn't
look right either - too 'squared off',
and a bit off-color......

CaptHenway · July 7, 2011 1:28AM

Sure looks counterfeit to me. I would guess Chinese.

How much did you pay for it? Whatever it was, if the maker got 25% of that, that's a profit in The People's Republic of Counterfeiting!

TD

CaptHenway · July 7, 2011 1:45AM

BTW, notice that the date style is not correct. 9 too closed, second 1 too high.

This means that the counterfeiters have made a master hub without a date in it that they can use to make multiple working dies, that are then individually dated. This means that they can make a working die for every date and mint mark in the series, if they have not yet already done so.

This 1917 could be an early trial piece of the series, or simply the first one noticed.

Beware.

TD

Broadstruck · July 7, 2011 2:03AM

<< BTW, notice that the date style is not correct. 9 too closed, second 1 too high.

This means that the counterfeiters have made a master hub without a date in it that they can use to make multiple working dies, that are then individually dated. This means that they can make a working die for every date and mint mark in the series, if they have not yet already done so.

This 1917 could be an early trial piece of the series, or simply the first one noticed.

Beware.

TD >>

CaptHenway, That was a very frightening post!

truthteller · July 7, 2011 2:17AM

This is a very, very good counterfiet and would fool most new and entry level collectors. Nice high grade. Expect them to get better. Know your coins, know you series.

TRUTH

johnny9434 · July 7, 2011 3:41AM

i agree, know your series ( again thou, why counterfit something like that )

CaptHenway · July 7, 2011 3:47AM

<< i agree, know your series ( again thou, why counterfit something like that ) >>

Again, what did it sell for? That is why counterfeit something like that.

TD

drwstr123 · July 7, 2011 4:06AM

I purchased it with the intent to inform this board that all coins are being reproduced.
It was only a matter of time that they permeate the secondary market.
As with most repros, notice the diminished scale of detail.
That as a result of production method.

291fifth · July 7, 2011 4:12AM

Could "coins" like this effectively destroy the US coin market? Dangerous stuff!

RiffRaff1967 · July 7, 2011 4:20AM

Wow this is scary...

Barry · July 7, 2011 4:32AM

<< Wow this is scary...

>>

It would be scarier in a counterfeit slab.

JamesMurray · July 7, 2011 4:38AM

<< I purchased it with the intent to inform this board that all coins are being reproduced.
It was only a matter of time that they permeate the secondary market.
As with most repros, notice the diminished scale of detail.
That as a result of production method. >>

These commen coins have been available for quite some time now , generally sold in complete sets on the bay under replicas. All an ebayer need do is message the seller and request "copy" not be stamped on them. If you don't believe that , try it.

drwstr123 · July 7, 2011 4:45AM

<< 

<< I purchased it with the intent to inform this board that all coins are being reproduced.
It was only a matter of time that they permeate the secondary market.
As with most repros, notice the diminished scale of detail.
That as a result of production method. >>

These commen coins have been available for quite some time now , generally sold in complete sets on the bay under replicas. All an ebayer need do is message the seller and request "copy" not be stamped on them. If you don't believe that , try it. >>

I have. It comes without "COPY".

JamesMurray · July 7, 2011 4:56AM

Here's the kicker , i did too. When i got the coin i posted photos here and not one person suggested it a fake. This is a large cent and it was a lengthy thread with people even giving me sheldon variety numbers etc ... nobody for one minute thought it fake.This was pre purging days when there were other genuine experts on hand commenting.

CaptHenway · July 7, 2011 5:01AM

<< I purchased it with the intent to inform this board that all coins are being reproduced.
It was only a matter of time that they permeate the secondary market.
As with most repros, notice the diminished scale of detail.
That as a result of production method. >>

WHAT WAS THE PRICE?????

SaorAlba · July 7, 2011 5:12AM

<< Am I missing something why would someone counterfit a 1917 cent? >>

Quite frankly because it is less likely to be suspected of being a counterfeit because it is a fairly lower priced coin. The Chinese fakers are also making very common date coins to tap that end of the market. It is a sound marketing strategy - even if it is immoral. At any given time you can find common date Indians, early Wheats etc being sold as originals, but indeed they are Chinese made fakes.

drwstr123 · July 7, 2011 5:29AM

"What is the price?"
I am confused.
Is there a different response if I paid $5.00 as opposed to $50.00?

ctf_error_coins · July 7, 2011 5:45AM

<< "What is the price?"
I am confused.
Is there a different response if I paid $5.00 as opposed to $50.00? >>

At $5 the they are making a killing.

pheh · July 7, 2011 6:03AM

<< Here's the kicker , i did too. When i got the coin i posted photos here and not one person suggested it a fake. This is a large cent and it was a lengthy thread with people even giving me sheldon variety numbers etc ... nobody for one minute thought it fake.This was pre purging days when there were other genuine experts on hand commenting. >>

Link? I would search for all your posts but I still get the variable error when searching.

CaptHenway · July 7, 2011 6:04AM

<< "What is the price?"
I am confused.
Is there a different response if I paid $5.00 as opposed to $50.00? >>

OK, what is Greysheet BID for an MS-60 1917 cent? People keep asking why anybody would bother to counterfeit a common coin like this. I am trying to make the point that the price realized was the motive.

I am not faulting you for buying it, and I thank you for publicizing it for the enlightenment of all. We need more exposure like this. I am just trying to make the point that if the original maker (presumably in China) netted even $2 for it, he made a profit.

Back when I was an authenticator for ANACS, we let a counterfeit slip through because I made the mistake of thinking "Nobody would make of counterfeit of this in that low a grade." I was wrong. I want people to get the idea that NOTHING is so cheap that it can't be counterfeited these days.

TD

JamesMurray · July 7, 2011 6:08AM

<< 

<< Here's the kicker , i did too. When i got the coin i posted photos here and not one person suggested it a fake. This is a large cent and it was a lengthy thread with people even giving me sheldon variety numbers etc ... nobody for one minute thought it fake.This was pre purging days when there were other genuine experts on hand commenting. >>

Link? I would search for all your posts but I still get the variable error when searching. >>

Geez...i'll try to find it when things quieten down here later , if memory serves it was an 1823 in dang near UNC , passed with flying colours.I can't recall when i posted it , between 6 -12 month mark..maybe..

Edited to add , i found the thread complete with pics , i will PM you the link as i don't think it fair to drag it up now i've declared it fake. This was done to fully understand just how good these fakes are.Needless to say i no longer collect large cents.

drwstr123 · July 7, 2011 6:41AM

TD,
I know it can be had for literally pennies (cents) if purchased directly from China.
I do wish to inform that China is not alone in deceptive reproductions.
I waited for this to be sold by an at home seller.
For all to know, I paid $22.00 shipped.

WestySteve · July 7, 2011 7:11AM

<< Could "coins" like this effectively destroy the US coin market? Dangerous stuff! >>

Yes...which is why we really need to band together on this. Get organized (more organized). Point out every fake here and complain to e-bay when they pop up. But they are still going to come in from the flea markets. They need to be treated like Opium from Asia. Illegal to import, illegal to buy and illegal to distribute.

mkman123 · July 7, 2011 7:26AM

Was the seller from China or in the USA? Did you inform them? Still looks real to me wow!

jesbroken · July 7, 2011 8:31AM

It is somewhat odd to me, that for as many indications to this coin being counterfeit and yet were the 1's in the date normal, I doubt very many would have noticed the rest due to the oddity of such a low value coin being counterfeit. Crazy. Soon they will be counterfeiting anything that they can make a profit on G-VG common date coins may be suspect should they be able to profit from its sale--perhaps as rolls with semi key indian cent on each end. Wow. Look out!
Jim

RedneckHB · July 7, 2011 11:44AM

Wow!!

coindeuce · July 7, 2011 12:13PM

I can only foresee the eventual implementation by Big Brother of excessive import duties for countries of origin that are known producers of these forgeries. That would be the only feasible way to discourage Americans from spending U.S. Dollars in these countries for this junk.

stevek · July 7, 2011 12:19PM

Thanks for the post.

BigE · July 7, 2011 1:26PM

I wonder what the composition is. Kind of looks like they are struck and stamped out of a strip at the same time, this may be why the strike is weak---------------BigE

CaptHenway · July 7, 2011 1:59PM

The color sure looks good. I would not be surprised if it was 95% copper with a tin and zinc alloy.
TD

ndgoflo · July 7, 2011 2:16PM

<< Am I missing something why would someone counterfit a 1917 cent? >>

At least it is a wheatie, I have acounterfeit 1964 memorial. Now why would anybody counterfeit that?

CaptHenway · July 7, 2011 3:15PM

<< 

<< Am I missing something why would someone counterfit a 1917 cent? >>

At least it is a wheatie, I have acounterfeit 1964 memorial. Now why would anybody counterfeit that? >>

There were some counterfeit 1964 error cents made from counterfeit dies struck on genuine host coins, but I do not recall ever seeing a "normal" coin from one of the dies used to make the overstrikes.

Can we see pictures please?

TD

ndgoflo · July 7, 2011 3:35PM

I'm not set up to take any pics at this hour, let me see if I have any pics of it on my drive. If I do then I will post them.

ndgoflo · July 7, 2011 3:55PM

Nope, can't locate any pics of my '64. I thought I took some, but can't remember where or how I stored them.

Anyhow, I'm certain that it is a cast counterfeit. I can see a parting line around the edge and a scar where the sprue was. There is poor-fill in the fields, not to mention very underweight. I aquired it in a bulk deal of world coins from a fellow in Netherlands. He told me about it, but I couldn't believe anyone would bother on such a common coin. I told him it was probably PMD, but he assured me otherwise and threw it in on the deal.

I will try to get pics posted in a new thread if you or anyone else would care to have a look and render any opinions.

jdimmick · July 7, 2011 9:14PM

There are several going around made the exact same way with several dates already , I have seen several over the past month, and all are not key dates, some like this coin common date or semi dates in higher grade?? Saw a 15 -p , and a 09-P

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · July 7, 2011 9:34PM

Hi Guys,

Why would someone counterfeit a 1917 Lincoln Cent fake ?

I have examined two 1917 cents with the same type of machined rim before there were Chinese fakes.

This was done with Yankee ingenuity to try and fool someone they had a 1917 Proof Lincoln Cent

Has anyone ever heard "seek and ye shall find " ?

The most distinguishing characteristic of a Proof 1917 Lincoln cent would be that it would have to be a chiseled strike similar to a 1916.

Now the grading services will REALLY have to earn their money.

Stewart Blayh

coinman23885 · July 9, 2011 2:30PM

<< 

<< Am I missing something why would someone counterfit a 1917 cent? >>

At least it is a wheatie, I have acounterfeit 1964 memorial. Now why would anybody counterfeit that? >>

practice

coinman23885 · July 9, 2011 2:33PM

<< 

<< Am I missing something why would someone counterfit a 1917 cent? >>

Kinda the reason for the post... >>

Who else would be willing to wager that these end up in NNC/SGS/NTC MS67RB holders on eBay? Someone will fall for it.

lkeigwin · July 9, 2011 3:03PM

<< Who else would be willing to wager that these end up in NNC/SGS/NTC MS67RB holders on eBay? Someone will fall for it. >>

What's worrisome is that they end up in PCGS holders.

I like to believe there'll never come a time when experts can't detect fakes. Technology will keep a step ahead. But if this is fallacious thinking then the future is a little scary.
Lance.

windwhispersintrees · July 10, 2011 12:15AM

Wow, I only casually follow the hobby. Had no clue there was stuff like this. I thought it was limited to the really lame looking Trade Dollars or real high value stuff.

kaz · July 10, 2011 12:31AM

Larson's book explains how to make any date of Lincoln from 1918-1958: take a 1943 steel cent, shave off the date except for the 19, harden it, use it as a hub to make fake dies, which can then have the date of choice punched into the die.
The coin in the op appears to be a transfer-die forgery which explains the mushiness.

cladking · July 10, 2011 1:20AM

I wonder if melting the counterfeit for it's 4c worth of metal will get someone a prison sentence.

Itr's a brave new world where counterfeiting is legal but you don't even own your own money.

Phoney Lincoln Cent makes it....

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