My Electrotype Experiments Underway *Updated, with results starting to show*
ambro51
Posts: 13,956 ✭✭✭✭✭
OK Folks, Here we go.
Science 101 (well, maybe 201) ...Electrotypes
First off, this is a very simple setup, but it seems to fulfill all the requirements. This is just started...and it can take a long time, up to 4 days. Im just learning,...experimenting, if you will, but hopefully once the solutions are correct, and the voltage is correct, this SHOULD all work.
You may ask...?How does it work, Mr. Science?
well, a very weak electric current passes through a bath of copper sulfate that is made conductive by a small amount of sulfuric acid. The copper will pass from the Anode (metal plate) to the Cathode (graphite coated mould). In time, through ionic action, a coating of copper will (hopefully) build up on the mould, and then the wax mold can be melted out, the copper shell filled with solder, and two halves joined together.
In theory, at least....Im sure this is a lot like Wet Plate Photography...I studied and worked at it for a long time before I got really good at it.
So here is what we have so far...
Dont expect to see a "coin" from this for awhile
Making the mould. I used a large cent, which was placed on top of a metal rod, with paper wrapped around. Melted beeswax was poured in to about 3/8 inch.
Heres the mould, which is a beeswax incuse impression of the large cent, with graphite brushed into, and around, the mould. copper wire is twisted around that.. It connects to the negative pole of the battery.
When its in the solution, it draws copper both from the Anode (copper plate) and from the copper sulfate bath (I think). Heres the anode. This connects to the positive pole of the battery.
The electric current needs to be weak, but very constant. Im starting with 1.5 volts, results may dictate a move up to 3 volts, but time is needed to make this determination. Too much electric and bubbles of gas form (not forming now with 1.5). This is ran from heavy copper wire, which suspends the anode and cathode about 3/4 inch apart,
The copper sulfate/acid solution covers all the wires, anode and cathode, The wire holding the anode has to be coated with asphaltum (roofing tar) so that it is not dissolved by the chemistry. This is the operation, IN ACTION, it will now sit here undisturbed for many hours, and hopefully an exact copper shell will build up around the mould. Once the shell is made, it is dried well, and heated slowly to fuse it together. Then, filled with solder for a uniface piece. The obverse will then be done, and the two fused together with just enough heat to melt the solder.
Now the wait begins. The first sign it is "all working" is that the cathode wire turns a rosy pink, showing that fresh copper is being deposited...and yes, even at this early stage, I think Im seeing that.
Science 101 (well, maybe 201) ...Electrotypes
First off, this is a very simple setup, but it seems to fulfill all the requirements. This is just started...and it can take a long time, up to 4 days. Im just learning,...experimenting, if you will, but hopefully once the solutions are correct, and the voltage is correct, this SHOULD all work.
You may ask...?How does it work, Mr. Science?
well, a very weak electric current passes through a bath of copper sulfate that is made conductive by a small amount of sulfuric acid. The copper will pass from the Anode (metal plate) to the Cathode (graphite coated mould). In time, through ionic action, a coating of copper will (hopefully) build up on the mould, and then the wax mold can be melted out, the copper shell filled with solder, and two halves joined together.
In theory, at least....Im sure this is a lot like Wet Plate Photography...I studied and worked at it for a long time before I got really good at it.
So here is what we have so far...
Dont expect to see a "coin" from this for awhile
Making the mould. I used a large cent, which was placed on top of a metal rod, with paper wrapped around. Melted beeswax was poured in to about 3/8 inch.
Heres the mould, which is a beeswax incuse impression of the large cent, with graphite brushed into, and around, the mould. copper wire is twisted around that.. It connects to the negative pole of the battery.
When its in the solution, it draws copper both from the Anode (copper plate) and from the copper sulfate bath (I think). Heres the anode. This connects to the positive pole of the battery.
The electric current needs to be weak, but very constant. Im starting with 1.5 volts, results may dictate a move up to 3 volts, but time is needed to make this determination. Too much electric and bubbles of gas form (not forming now with 1.5). This is ran from heavy copper wire, which suspends the anode and cathode about 3/4 inch apart,
The copper sulfate/acid solution covers all the wires, anode and cathode, The wire holding the anode has to be coated with asphaltum (roofing tar) so that it is not dissolved by the chemistry. This is the operation, IN ACTION, it will now sit here undisturbed for many hours, and hopefully an exact copper shell will build up around the mould. Once the shell is made, it is dried well, and heated slowly to fuse it together. Then, filled with solder for a uniface piece. The obverse will then be done, and the two fused together with just enough heat to melt the solder.
Now the wait begins. The first sign it is "all working" is that the cathode wire turns a rosy pink, showing that fresh copper is being deposited...and yes, even at this early stage, I think Im seeing that.
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Comments
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Thanx
Steve
<< <i>Did you do one side or both sides? >>
One side at a time... At a later stage ambro51 will have to fuse Kelly LeBrock together!
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
<< <i>May your results be as good as this electro.
I was wondering about this coin and found the reason for it. Very interesting part of American history.
The Battle of Buena Vista, February 22-23, 1847
OP is so cool also
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
<< <i>
<< <i>Did you do one side or both sides? >>
One side at a time... At a later stage ambro51 will have to fuse Kelly LeBrock together!
She's blinded me ... with science!
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>This has to be the beginning one of the best threads in the last year!
K
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
Its working.
Copper is being deposited on the mould~
Pictures to come later.
Making another setup now, with three volts, increasing the concentration of copper sulfate and making a "lip" on the mould,
the first version....now that I realize what Ive done, will not form a shell, just a copper coating on the mould.
Live and learn
but, it IS working!
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Since I took this picture, a few hours ago, more has covered with copper. Im going to give this a few days, maybe four, before I pull it.
and Im an impatient person!
Made up another bath, this one a little stronger, the mould sides reconfigured to make the mould like a cup, so that a shell will form inside. Increased the voltage to 3 volts, no bubbles which would indicate too strong a current, and the cathode wire is already well covered. THIS may be the best way to do this....time will tell.
What Fun~~!!
Way cool BTW!
<< <i>Nice attention to detail on the battery boxes! >>
It is interesting, and Im glad the peanut gallery is enjoying it.
This has got me thinking.....Pulling a silicon mould off my 6 1/2 inch round brenner lincoln plaque, doing electros of that and backing them with something and mounting them on a wood plaque. Hmmmmmm.....
Its really amazing how precise the beeswax cast is. How I made the last one, same large cent on a rod wrapped with paper, but I put it in the Fridge for an hour or so. Then, took it out, got the beewax (im melting down a handrolled candle with a torch, nice clean melt) and then breathed deeply onto the surface of the coin. This makes a layer of condensation, very thin, which prevents the wax from sticking in any way to the coin. Held the candle over the mould, using a torch melted the wax and quickly filled the mould to like 3/8 inch. As soon as that set, put it into the Fridge. An hour or so later, unwound the paper, and the coin and the wax mould just came apart in two pieces very clean. The surface of the wax, just ever so smooth and the letter impressions deep and crisp. Now I can see how then could do things like that Victory medal. This is probably the finest method of reproduction ever devised, when done by experts.
I cant wait to see what these two look like when they are finally melted from the mould!
It will be fun to play with this if indeed it "all works". Id like to take the 3 cent feuchtwanger low 118 and make a copper one~! Kind of like having your own teeeeny little mint! ...that is, if it works!
<< <i>Kind of like having your own teeeeny little mint! ...that is, if it works! - Daniel Carr >>
Fixed it for you...
not the silent travel of electrons!
<< <i>It is interesting, and Im glad the peanut gallery is enjoying it. >>
Totally!
There are bubbles created during plating and in the position you have it, the bubbles will collect in wells of your design and mess up your electrotype.
You may also want to add a little liquid detergent to the solution to reduce surface tension so bubbles don't stick to your electrotype and mess it up.
<< <i>naw, Dan likes to hear KABOOM KABOOM KABOOM
not the silent travel of electrons! >>
I like it when I can feel the concrete floor shake.
PS:
Cool experiment.
This is one of the best posts I've ever seen on these boards. Bravo!!!
<< <i>This is one of the best posts I've ever seen on these boards. Bravo!!! >>
I concur!
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<< <i>naw, Dan likes to hear KABOOM KABOOM KABOOM
not the silent travel of electrons! >>
Late at night you can hear the electrons screaming.............
<< <i>
<< <i>naw, Dan likes to hear KABOOM KABOOM KABOOM
not the silent travel of electrons! >>
Late at night you can hear the electrons screaming............. >>
excellent advice from rob790. you would want the mold and the anode facing each other like two coins standing on edge.
you also noted seeing the plating develop on the wire first. this is a high current density area. the center of your mold will be the low current density area. you will get less plating in this area but plated long enough it will work. if you "mask" the wire leading to your mold you will get more plating onto your mold faster. the wire leading to your mold is acting like a "thief" and stealing plating from your piece. you can mask the wire with epoxy paint or electrical tape. hope this helps and keep us posted.